Submitted by gridnews t3_11arcyd in dataisbeautiful
Comments
Ronil_wazilib t1_j9tquku wrote
that's how most pointless wars are
f_d t1_j9v4i2t wrote
It's how wars can develop when defenses are strong and there is no easy advantage for either side. When invading, the US spent a while bombing Iraq's front lines but advanced rapidly whenever they cleared a path. Russia pushed relentlessly to Georgia's capital with an overwhelming advantage. World War 2 unfolded as a series of crushing Axis victories followed by brutal but effective slogs to push them back again. Various wars against ISIS were punctuated with a lot of substantial gains and losses in both directions. But Ukraine and Russia are mired in almost the same kind of trench warfare that defined World War 1, just with drones and missiles adding to the heavy reliance on artillery and front-line cannon fodder for tiny incremental gains or losses.
As someone else pointed out, the defensive war isn't pointless for Ukraine, since allowing Russia through would put many more millions of people under a brutal dictatorship determined to wipe out their identity. The invasion is pointless but it wasn't up to Ukraine to decide that.
DreadpirateBG t1_j9uum9d wrote
Exactly. War is pointless for most of the people effected by it. Only a very very small number of the aggressor/invader people want it. And those people are willing to kill everyone on both sides. But it is not always so black in white like it is here. The war in Yemen what the F is that about and why is the world not all over it. There is also an civil war or something in an African country I forget the name that is also horrible. Or the never ending slow war of Israel killing off Palestinians. Soldier and civilians are basically like live stock to the leaders.
arckeid t1_j9uvzjc wrote
If the politicians really cared for their people they would have surrendered before the war started.
Now the two sides are just putting their civilians in the back of weapons and calling them soldiers.
the_3d6 t1_j9uztvu wrote
Yeah, russians just would do what they did to civilians in Bucha to the whole country. No, thanks :)
pukabi t1_j9wkrmx wrote
Is it happening on the territories that were taken?
the_3d6 t1_j9wmei5 wrote
As far as I know, the absolute majority of people who fled to russia did that from occupied territories
pukabi t1_j9wn7az wrote
They were given a choice to go right or left. Those who chose Russia- did it willingly.
the_3d6 t1_j9xu6fb wrote
"willingly" involves choice between passing through multiple checkpoints with full body checks (literally looking for "suspicious tatoos") and robbery (if soldiers like something you have, they take it, end of story) to get to Ukraine vs unrestricted passage to russia
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9vo6ff wrote
The people don't want the government to surrender. They know what Russian soldiers do to men, women, and children
2puritan4reddit t1_j9vru0g wrote
The millions of Ukrainians who fled or attempted to flee would disagree.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9vsvet wrote
Weird how they didn't flee to the Russian side, right?
Also weird how even abroad they are supporting Ukraine and protesting Russia.
pukabi t1_j9wl2it wrote
Weird is that Russia accepted the most of people who fled among other countries.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9wlj4x wrote
2puritan4reddit t1_j9vtfop wrote
If they wanted their country's independence to survive that badly they would've stayed and fought.
>Also weird how even abroad they are supporting Ukraine and protesting Russia.
Actions often speak louder than words.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9vtzr2 wrote
LOL. Most of the people who fled were women and children.
Ukrainians did stay and fight. Why do you think the 3 day invasion turned into a quagmire for Russia?
They expected Ukraine to fall, the army to run, the government to flee and get an easy victory.
The reason Russia has lost so much equipment, soldiers, and prestige is because Ukrainians did stay and fight.
pukabi t1_j9wllyg wrote
Men in Ukraine pay a lot of money to be able to leave. They won’t show it on CNN. Those who are not reach enough are taken into meat grinder. This is first hand information. Ukraine force them to stay. Open the border and see what happens.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9wm84g wrote
It's first hand information your consumed on Pikabu :)
Sorry about Russia losing. Must hurt.
pukabi t1_j9wn07c wrote
No I get information from Ukrainian people who managed to flee
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9wndyo wrote
Hahahaha. Right.
Tell me which side needs a second line of soldiers to shoot retreating troops again? Which side needs Kadyrovites to scare soldiers into not retreating.
Weird how Ukraine can force people into a meat grinder against their will and yet there's no evidence of it.
Here's a tip: "Ukrainians" on Pikabu claiming they know the "real story" they don't tell on "CNN" are trolls.
pukabi t1_j9wohh4 wrote
I am aware my opinion is not popular. And the information may be shocking to you. It’s your right to accept or deny it. You choose what to believe in. However it is not all black and white as many people see it. I don’t get info from pikabu - it is a politics free community. I do not reside in Russia. And people who fled Ukraine are friends of mine here. Im not going to lie- they don’t like Russia. But they don’t want to fight in this meaningless war either.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9wpbs5 wrote
So you know a couple people who fled Ukraine and don't want to fight and to you that is representative of the entire country?
There are plenty of Ukrainians who are just as susceptible to Russian propaganda. There are plenty who thought when Russia "liberated" their towns and villages that they would be treated kindly and respected. Until the purges.
I know someone from Donetsk who tells me about the horrors of what Russia did. Forcible conscription, disregard for local populace, etc. At least I understand that that is just simply anecdotal and in reality I can't draw an conclusion from that and say it must be most people in Donetsk must be anti-Russia. I don't know.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9vuwmc wrote
>LOL. Most of the people who fled were women and children.
And those who attempted to flee?
2puritan4reddit t1_j9vwgac wrote
How does this prove your point? Unless you're shifting goalposts?
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9vwzda wrote
My point that Ukrainians are clearly not protesting and wanting their government to surrender?
I'm just answering your question. You're the one who moved the discussion in a weird direction.
There's nothing stopping people in Ukraine or outside of it. If the refugees are so eager to get back to their homes, why aren't you seeing any pressure for them on Ukraine to surrender? You only see the opposite. Strong patriotism.
And if you think a 7 year old and her mother not staying at Bucha and leaving means they don't want Ukraine to survive, well, that's just the product of brain worms.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9vxvrf wrote
>My point that Ukrainians are clearly not protesting and wanting their government to surrender?
??
>I'm just answering your question.
You're not.
>You're the one who moved the discussion in a weird direction.
I didn't. I raised a good point.
>There's nothing stopping people in Ukraine or outside of it. If the refugees are so eager to get back to their homes, why aren't you seeing any pressure for them on Ukraine to surrender? You only see the opposite. Strong patriotism.
Actions speak louder than words. Anyone, even non-Ukranians can claim to be intensely patriotic for Ukraine (same applies to Russia). But it doesn't mean much unless they actually choose to prove it.
>And if you think a 7 year old and her mother not staying at Bucha and leaving means they don't want Ukraine to survive, well, that's just the product of brain worms.
You're also conveniently forgetting the millions of Ukrainian men of fighting age who attempted to flee in the very beginning, around the time Zelensky enacted the general mobilization. According to witness reports from westerners who were in Ukraine, people were literally stopped in their cars by Ukrainian soldiers; the men were dragged out and forced to sign up. Doesn't sound very patriotic to me.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9vzkdv wrote
>Actions speak louder than words.
And they proved it through their actions by driving the Russian army back and inflicting heavy losses on them even before 99% of the Western aid arrived. Seems like when a country that is expected to fold managed to stand up to a country that was thought of as the 2nd strongest in the world. they have proven it.
Look at how quickly the Afghan army folded to the Taliban. That's what happens when there's no will.
>You're also conveniently forgetting the millions of Ukrainian men of fighting age who attempted to flee
Link me to your source that you base that on. Show me where millions of fighting aged men tried to flee.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9w1vjv wrote
LOL. Wojak memes are your sources? Now I understand your confusion.
Where's the part about the millions of fighting aged men trying to flee?
That's what I asked for isn't it?
2puritan4reddit t1_j9w2wcu wrote
You didn't even read anything. While the source I linked does not mention the number (I am still retrieving the source and will link it when I find it, I believe it was Wikipedia), if you bothered to scroll down and read the damn thing you'd get half of what you asked for.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9w3h10 wrote
Half of what I asked for? I only asked for one thing. And the thing I asked for doesn't seem to be there with the quick search of it.
So I'll just wait for an actual source. Not a Reddit post from some rando on a wojak subreddit. Jesus Christ.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9w4ceg wrote
The "rando" you speak of is a journalist. Granted, while I may not agree with him all the time I still consider him a reliable source.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9w4lal wrote
That's the problem with randos on Reddit, I don't know anything about them. This website is largely anonymous and it doesn't verify anyone. If they wrote a piece that got published somewhere, you should link to that.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9w5q5u wrote
Listen. If this guy is a troll and/or attention seeker, he is very committed to the act considering he has made and posted dozens of high effort compasses just like the one I linked, some detailing events he's covered, some detailing events in his personal life, etc.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9w6ctd wrote
There are lots of committed trolls. The issue is you can't tell. It's all anonymous. If you chose to believe them, that's your choice. I don't even know their name. You say they are a journalist but journalists are not shy about revealing their identity. It's always under the news articles they write. There's no way to even verify they are a journalist.
I will take a look at your wikipedia source though.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9w7brk wrote
According to himself, he doesn't want his Reddit account to be linked to his real identity because of all of the messed up/controversial things he's admitted to doing in his life. Although he acknowledges that he will most likely be eventually doxxed.
As for my other source, well. I'm still searching but not much luck so far. I think I read that part around a year ago, near the beginning of the war. I'm hoping I didn't get it confused with Russia's mobilization lol, although I'm sure I read of a large number of men who attempted to flee Ukraine somewhere.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9w86i2 wrote
I can understand not wanting to have you real life identity linked to your Reddit account. I would never link mine to my rl identity. But obviously that comes with downsides such as no way to confirm anything I say and I'm free to embellish the truth. And truth be told I've done that a few times knowing there's no way to verify it because my identity is anonymous.
And I'm not disputing that men tried to leave and were prevented. I concede that point because there's evidence for it out there. But I've never come across any sources claiming it to be millions.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9w9a3b wrote
It may not have been millions, I may have been mistaken. But judging based on PerpetualHillman's account of what happened, it must've been in the tens of thousands at the minimum. Also, media generally focuses on those who successfully fled (weren't prevented by the Ukrainian government from leaving, so mostly women and children) rather than those who were prevented (overwhelmingly fighting age men).
I don't think u/PerpetualHillman was expecting to be used as a source as most reddit users don't interact with communities like r/wojackcompass but I thought it was relevant to the conversation.
>And truth be told I've done that a few times knowing there's no way to verify it because my identity is anonymous.
You've done what a few times?
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9wa2bt wrote
>You've done what a few times?
Embellished the truth knowing it couldn't be verified because of anonymity.
And I can concede tens of thousands without a source especially in a country of 40 million.
Even if they were all opposed to Ukraine and wanted Russia to win, it would be a small minority in the grand scheme of things. But Ukrainians aren't shy about expressing their opinions and I'm not aware of protests in any Ukrainian cities demanding the government surrender. Even though those still remaining in Ukraine feel the brunt of it. And when Ukrainians protest, they really protest.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9wbdpu wrote
Well, there's media bias. Since those who were prevented from leaving aren't covered as much due to a combination of western media bias (we don't see or hear them so we don't think about them as much) and also for propaganda purposes (portraying the Ukrainian people as more committed to the war than they really are). u/PerpetualHillman did not give an exact number.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9wc8en wrote
Given we still see protests out of Russia leak online, even though they literally haul people off and try to shut down any dissenting voices, if people were unhappy and wanted their government to surrender, we would see them marching or we would see them being being arrested or attacked for speaking out.
The question is what would you expect to see if Ukrainians didn't want their country to continue fighting? And where are you seeing this?
And I disagree a bit about Western media bias. It's not a monolith. OAN just did a show on Dugin. There is always a market out there for things that make Ukraine look bad.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9wcpso wrote
By the way, I never said Ukrainians want their country to stop fighting. I'm saying the Ukrainian people may not be as committed to the war as western propaganda may imply.
>And I disagree a bit about Western media bias. It's not a monolith. OAN just did a show on Dugin. There is always a market out there for things that make Ukraine look bad.
There's also Fox news. I was mostly thinking about social media and such when I wrote those comments regarding propaganda.
Mushroom_Tip t1_j9wcwtu wrote
Then I think our convo has reached its end. Have a good rest of your day.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9whoyb wrote
Night where I live. You too.
The man himself u/perpetualhillman has commented on this thread.
PerpetualHillman t1_j9wc9j6 wrote
I only saw what I saw. I cannot speak on the issue from any objective standpoint.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9we35k wrote
Woah. It's you! I saw your username appear on my notifications and stared at it for a few seconds in surprise. I may disagree with some of your life choices but I do enjoy reading your compasses.
You might want to reply to the other person, since he doesn't view you as credible and all that.
2puritan4reddit t1_j9wfeqk wrote
Also remember to tag your post NSFW.
the_3d6 t1_j9xtris wrote
Tens of thousands are about right, in other words about 1%. Which leaves 99% ready to stay and fight. From what I've heard it takes $3-5k in bribes to leave the country, so at least 20% of people could afford that if they really wanted to
2puritan4reddit t1_j9z07ea wrote
>Tens of thousands are about right, in other words about 1%. Which leaves 99% ready to stay and fight.
Remember that Ukraine is a small country (its population is half the size of the UK).
>From what I've heard it takes $3-5k in bribes to leave the country, so at least 20% of people could afford that if they really wanted to
Remember that Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe.
the_3d6 t1_j9z3l2s wrote
>Remember that Ukraine is a small country (its population is half the size of the UK).
~40 millions before the war started, thus ~10M men fit for army. 1% of 10M = 100k
>Remember that Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe.
I know it firsthand - I live in Kyiv )) In IT $3k is quite an average salary. A lot of people earn at least $1k (flat rent prices in Kyiv right now tell that 17k flats are available for renting with median price ~$300/month - which means that a lot of people can afford that, otherwise the price would go down).
So $3-5k is definitely within reach for at least 20% of the population
the_3d6 t1_j9v080z wrote
You want to check videos from liberated Kherson in November - that would not only correct dates, but also would give some insight on why lives are spent on Ukrainian side
uncannyinferno t1_j9tj9yb wrote
Nothing beautiful about this data
TheAbcedarian t1_j9tuoxb wrote
Yeah, this data sucks.
Maleficent-Finish-79 t1_j9urwsz wrote
Sadly they haven’t took them fully :(
sexy_wash_bucket t1_j9vmqxn wrote
I always forget people are this stupid
bradyso t1_j9ugeyg wrote
What is happening in the north? Do the border guards just look at the Russian border guards since there's no fighting there right now?
the_3d6 t1_j9v0t2p wrote
That's what happens on border with Belorussia which is giving free passage for russian troops but officially hadn't joined the war. On russian border it's more tense, although in general yes, both sides keep clear from small- and medium arms range, and heavy armor is mostly not used there (with occasional exceptions)
delocx t1_j9vpd7e wrote
The exceptions of course being sporadic reports of the occasional artillery pot shot across one way or the other between Ukraine and Russia in the north, but yes, mostly just building, reinforcing, and manning defensive lines.
ppitm t1_j9w9dxa wrote
Don't worry, Russia still kills civilians with pointless artillery attacks on Ukrainian villages.
[deleted] t1_j9yka1p wrote
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[deleted] t1_j9uru27 wrote
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That_randomdutchguy t1_j9vad3g wrote
Poland is the main humanitarian corridor and way of flight for the 8 million who fled Ukraine, and the majority 9f refugees fled to the EU, not to Russia.
pukabi t1_j9wlrh6 wrote
That is not true.
[deleted] t1_j9vka1y wrote
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laverabe t1_j9wxt33 wrote
2 million fled to Russia? I find that hard to believe, do you have a source for that?
I think it would be interesting to see visualized data on how many people fled Ukraine/Russia and in what directions.
the_3d6 t1_j9v1uun wrote
8M people left Ukraine. Of those who did it of their own will ~5M went to Europe. It is unknown how many people willingly moved to russia - but there are many known facts of forced deportation there
V_es t1_j9v3pre wrote
Around 2 million went to Russia. As far as I know, the most into one country. 1.2m into Poland.
Winjin t1_j9w0y8b wrote
You do know a lot of people living in the west of Ukraine identified as Russian?
I see people painting this like a hostage situation, but these people are not kept in camps or something, they have internet and flats.
the_3d6 t1_j9w2xiy wrote
Not in the west, but there are indeed such people in the east. Yet even there a vast majority condemned russian actions. Clearly forced deportation didn't happen often - but people on occupied territories are given a choice of going through many filtration checkpoints in order to get to free Ukraine (with very real chances to be detained for as much as pro-Ukrainian telegram.channel found in their phone), or unrestricted, no questions asked passage to russia
Winjin t1_j9xhb7e wrote
Right, sorry, the East, the currently occupied parts basically.
Mistercanadianface t1_j9y4bdi wrote
In Quebec some people feel closer ties to France than Canada - does this mean France should invade?
Josquius t1_j9to91j wrote
Why the dark colour around Crimea?
ILMTitan t1_j9vklhc wrote
That is areas under Russian control prior to the invasion. See also a small chunk of eastern Ukraine.
Josquius t1_j9xkoii wrote
Its the sea....
_senzanome t1_j9vlu8y wrote
The invasion started in 2014
DaveDaLion t1_j9uz59f wrote
I wonder how the situation is at this northern border with Russia. Is there any fighting? Did the Ukranians dig in so deep Russia doesn’t feel like attacking on that front? Or is there simply no militairy focus on this area from both sides. And if so I really wonder why.
Prudent-Host-3656 t1_j9w4nm1 wrote
The russian side doesn’t have the resources to push the front all around
pukabi t1_j9wmftf wrote
It has the resources but it is stupid to spend them all. US , Russia, China and Iran would not have enough time to test all the weapons they have and perform hands on training for military.
[deleted] t1_j9tifad wrote
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f_d t1_j9v2p6s wrote
It would be interesting to see some additional level of information like how long each side has held each bit of territory for the duration of the war, frequency of casualties or total casualties in different places, civilian population shifts, that sort of thing. For the most part, the lines haven't shifted much since Russia's initial land grab and Ukraine's pushback in the north during the early weeks of the war, except for two big Ukrainian gains at the southwest and northeast edges of the existing front. But some areas have been subjected to heavy fighting and small gains or losses of territory throughout the war, while others have been relatively quiet.
[deleted] t1_j9v2wq6 wrote
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DoktahDoktah t1_j9vt93r wrote
All part of Putin's plan. Yup. Hes like a kerbilliom steps ahead
nomokatsa t1_j9xwadg wrote
"everything is happening according to plan", as the official channels say.
"if this is what the plan looked like, the plan is retarded" as Z fanatics answer...
[deleted] t1_j9wdvtc wrote
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FormerHoagie t1_j9wcxi1 wrote
Thanks for making a visual of how much territory Ukraine has retaken. It would be even nicer if the blue were darker.
WessizleTheKnizzle t1_j9x0i6u wrote
At this point, can we consider Ukraine Russia's Vietnam?
[deleted] t1_j9xqlry wrote
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Apprehensive-Ad-5009 t1_j9tvaq0 wrote
A map is not data. Try r/mapporn
draypresct t1_j9tkc98 wrote
The label "invaded by Russia" implies that Russians held the pink areas at some time in the past. Maybe "currently held by Russia" if that's what you meant.
wannahughahajkunless t1_j9vsbkb wrote
Russia did occupy Ukraine between the 17th and 20th centuries
pukabi t1_j9wmql8 wrote
There was no such thing at that time bro. People were choosing between rech pospolita and Russian empire. And signed papers with Ekaterina.
[deleted] t1_j9tvp7o wrote
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Imperial_Empirical t1_j9tmx1e wrote
Which is about the same as both sides held in October. Hard to imagine sometimes how many lives are spend each day to change or keep those lines.