Submitted by __dacia__ t3_ye17nc in dataisbeautiful
Comments
Opus-the-Penguin t1_itva0ey wrote
It's really interesting that COBOL seems to be a solid median choice. It means I could've picked it up in 1980 when we got our first TRS-80 computer and been set for life. But back then we all thought COBOL was stodgy and on its way out. Turns out it would've kept me in the gravy through Y2K and up to the present.
685327594 t1_itval9k wrote
The big takeaway I see here is all my classes programming in assembly were pretty worthless. Are higher level languages used everywhere now?
Opus-the-Penguin t1_itvbpb8 wrote
Good question. I mean SOMEBODY has to be doing the ultra low level stuff in order for the high level to work, right? But yeah, back in the day, the machine language guys were the real he-man coders and the COBOL guys were just BASIC programmers with a car payment.
685327594 t1_itvcr71 wrote
Nobody really has to program in assembly unless they are making a new compiler.
114145 t1_itvf7z7 wrote
Nice viz! Like the style as well. One upgrade I'd love to see is samplesize per language. That'd really complete the picture.
phyrros t1_itvw1jb wrote
pretty curious chart. Eg the differences between Fortran and Cobol: Fortran is certainly more common in a daily usage (in the scientific community) but pays significantly less than Cobol which to my knowledge is only used in mainframes...
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The depressing part is that my programming skills would put me at twice the income in the USA ^^
Much-Street-8757 t1_itvxli0 wrote
How the hell is Typescript below Javascript?
iamthemosin t1_itw3cy2 wrote
Any information on what industries these languages are used for? And how many data points for each language? I would imagine there are a lot more Python users than Clojure users, since I’ve never heard of Clojure as a non-coder.
gizzardgullet t1_itw3k2x wrote
> Not like you just learn one language either.
I work with multiple languages on the list on a daily basis. Coincidentally, they are back to back on the list though.
ughcantsleep t1_itw4pdm wrote
If you only used the title you're skewing heavily towards junior and entry level positions. Most developers - particularly app or web developers - regularly work with more than one language. Data Scientists primarily develop in python or R but they aren't called "R developer".
Also Oct 2021 was the peak of tech optimism and hiring. The nasdaq index - a proxy for tech - is down 30%. Your top language - Solidity - is for crypto smart contracts; crypto companies are not hiring anymore and in fact have been laying off like crazy.
It was a nice effort but there's a ton of sampling bias that makes this chart misleading.
Edit: If you want to know what these languages are for and have a spare 16 mins here's a fun snappy youtube video.
If you have no formal cs training and you just want to start making stuff - 100% learn with python.
Also the fact that a crypto thing misleadingly made it to the top of a thing is just :chefskiss: lmfao
Pert02 t1_itw5oad wrote
Or when you need high performance on embedded applications. Lets say you need to do signal processing on an embedded system with a DSP. Thats all assembly.
muglug t1_itw78yy wrote
The top-salaried programming language is probably Hack, which is used at two companies (Facebook and Slack) that pay their engineers well, and not really used by anyone else.
That does not mean you should learn Hack! Instead means you should try and gain the skills/qualifications which would make you impressive to those companies.
Same with Rust, which is often used at companies that don't screen for Rust experience (but would be interested in developers with systems-programming experience).
WatDaFuxRong t1_itw9178 wrote
Any solidify people know what the difference is in it?
covidkebab t1_itw957x wrote
Could it be banks are hiring Cobol, while universities or research institutes are hiring Fortran?
Juan-More-Taco t1_itw9nfu wrote
Because it's poorly prepared/sourced data. This is mostly all noise.
phyrros t1_itwb9ye wrote
that would be my guess. A whole lot of phds/post-docs need fortran and those are usually badly paid.
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ed: I would love to see more datapoints for Julia as it fits right into the same area.
Fortran Julia Python R Matlab and a whole massive group of postdocs which work in areas which touch about all of these languages
sdfsefhsui t1_itwdhlm wrote
I think those values are from USA as $85 is massive in the UK.
sdfsefhsui t1_itwdojx wrote
> If you only used the title you're skewing heavily towards junior and entry level positions.
Junior positions making more than most senior software engineers in Europe/UK.
Nice
lordnacho666 t1_itwecba wrote
So now C and C++ are the same thing?
scholar_requesting t1_itwgjat wrote
R being on the bottom with a large interquartile range is dark but not surprising. Among the more well-to-do data scientists, statisticians, business analysts, and professors, there's a whole lot of low-income graduate students, research assistants, research associates, and postdoctoral scholars trying to keep their heads above water. Edit: ...and who might not be able to access, afford, or be willing to pirate SPSS/SAS/Stata/Prism/MATLAB.
devoxel t1_itwqpr1 wrote
Understanding assembly does make a better programmer IMO. It gives you intuition about memory access & stack. You can get there without assembly but its much easier when you've dug through the mud yourself, at least in my experience.
Plus languages like Rust are surprisingly low level, even though it's advanced in terms of syntax and symbolic representation
Poincare_Confection t1_itwvkgo wrote
I'm going to start calling people like you "picky eaters". Someone gives you a bowl of ice cream for free and your comment back is "but it doesn't have a cherry on top".
A data set can be useful even if it isn't a comprehensive representative of a situation covering every possible facet. I too often see comments like yours on this subreddit that suggest this data is lacking some key factor and therefore is flawed. You're right that there exists another factor that would help us better understand the situation, but that doesn't mean this data visualization is bad or suboptimal. You have all sorts of limitations when doing data visualizations, like limitations of your data, limitations of time (e.g. making simple 2D visualizations is MUCH faster than doing more sophisticated stuff in d3js), limitations of the READER'S ability to comprehend the visualization, and limitations of the reader's patience.
And you're going to come back and be like "oh, well, I didn't mean it that way. I just think it could be improved" blah blah blah. Nah. Bullshit. This subreddit is overrun by negative nancies coming in just smacking their lips ready to shit on every upvoted thread in this subreddit, when in reality they're perfectly respectable and useful data visualizations. Just a bunch of haters who are so negative and don't give props to the OP, and there's so many of you that comments like yours get upvoted to the top of threads. Fuck that. Ruins the sub imo.
685327594 t1_itww66l wrote
I'm not nitpicking, I'm saying you shouldn't assert or imply a causal relationship exists when the data isn't sufficient to support that relationship in a statistically significant way.
hatsuseno t1_itwxyx0 wrote
Most certainly, salaries are notoriously lower on this side of the pond.
ughcantsleep t1_itwzfjy wrote
Pal, you have no idea: https://www.levels.fyi/
Geography is the biggest confounding factor of them all.
sdfsefhsui t1_itx5xx8 wrote
Funny enough they're same roughly as in Canada, but any skilled job on average would get double in USA (with notable exceptions like medicine or living in the Silicon Valley).
bbqandhockeytoo t1_itx6956 wrote
Government financial services (public debt, unemployment, etc) are also still run on COBOL, especially if they are state rather than federal agencies. Some of these "ancient" coding languages are still integral to how our society functions... it's half impressive and 2/3rds terrifying.
Milnoc t1_itx76vc wrote
COBOL is a business accounting oriented language. It was used heavily for business applications running on mainframes such as reports, inventory control, and billing operations.
I wonder if it's still commonly used today.
GoodAndBluts t1_itxclbd wrote
What happened to objective-C ?
Khaylain t1_itxcyxg wrote
I don't think they are, but the C++ developers need something to aspire to.
mmm_modulo t1_itxf86o wrote
Why is Rust becoming a popular language?
Funicularly t1_itxh2d5 wrote
Why are you commenting on COBOL when the post you are responding to is wondering about Clojure.
trollsmurf t1_itxhzyu wrote
COBOL to Python instead?
hacksoncode t1_itxjfyg wrote
Lots of jokesdubious observations to be made here based on the fact that:
price = demand / supply.
nosmelc t1_itxnvxc wrote
Fast execution times.
shindleria t1_itxppy8 wrote
I always try to imagine a world where this chart is flipped, especially in the context of what’s going on right now in 2022.
ArkGuardian t1_itxu4oj wrote
It's a crypto specific language. Anyone who works in it professionally is in a handful of VC infused smart contract developer positions. It is not a good language to learn on its own
lucun t1_itxyroh wrote
Depends on where you work at in the stack, but normally yes higher level languages are everywhere and assembly is very uncommon. I've only had to code in assembly once in my career, and it was for a very specific piece of equipment to do an overly specialized 200% performance optimization that the C++ compiler wasn't intelligent enough to do for an overly specialized use case for that CPU.
[deleted] t1_itxyxvx wrote
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lucun t1_ity08i6 wrote
From the graph's OP:
>Also for the language categorization, only the TITLE of the job offer has been analyzed. This means that for example, a title of "Backend developer" would be discarded, since it does not contain any language or stack valid on it. Analyzing only the title also filters out offers that require many languages and are fuzzy.
I get the negative pickiness about this sub, but he's really not being picky. The data is bad, suboptimal, and misleading. Most companies do not list job postings with very specific "language x developer" and sometimes put languages in the job details, so OP's very limited sampling method is a flaw. The last thing we want is a bunch of new CS students hyper focused on learning Solidify for the big money, but only to learn that most companies don't even know about that language or even allow answering technical interview questions with Solidfy.
FreshInvestment_ t1_ity28p6 wrote
Are there people that just program in bash all day? If so, why?
KezAzzamean t1_ity2sru wrote
I’m PHP and JavaScript right now at 120k in Kentucky… guess it’s low because all the junior positions that touch it.
minusTHEoso25 t1_ity4ln4 wrote
That’s my guess. Most of our students, graduate students, and post docs are using R, and they are probably making zilch.
[deleted] t1_ity4xrr wrote
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minusTHEoso25 t1_ity57ai wrote
That’s probably it. I’m research faculty using Fortran and I make ~65k. Seems bad until you hear what our postdocs make…
minusTHEoso25 t1_ity5c36 wrote
Extremely valuable if you are into meteorology/climate science, albeit you will be underpaid!
TheLexoPlexx t1_ity9vzm wrote
Fortran, Bash, Lua, SQL? There is no one out there programming in only these languages. I am sorry to say this but it seems like this was made by someone not knowing any programming Language.
sittingmongoose t1_itye8v9 wrote
If you’re a cobol engineer making below $150k you’re doing it very wrong. My previous employer has been looking for a cobol engineer for 2 years, they pay lost people under 100k, this role is up over 200k now.
AlbanianAquaDuck t1_ityeeld wrote
So true. If our best scientists and engineers were paid the big bucks by government to research climate change and renewable energy solutions instead of getting scooped up by big tech and corporations, we would probably be on our way to meet our net zero emissions targets, but he we are.
a_cat_question t1_ityepkf wrote
Also you would not develop full software suites in R but rather do data evaluation. Anybody earning the big bucks will consider themselves a statistician or scientist but not an R genius.
BourgeoisCheese t1_ityg9i9 wrote
Dude, this chart is utter horseshit wtf are you writing a novel about?
VorianFromDune t1_ityiwzi wrote
Good luck finding a job with Erlang or even Rust.
Equivalent-Bench5950 t1_ityol2p wrote
These kinda post always make me sad becaus they remind me how little i earn relatively to my colleagues. Even though i chose the place i work at and often get offers of positions where i can earn 30-40% more i still get jealous... :/
ISlicedI t1_ityqx27 wrote
I can’t find JavaScript
Much-Street-8757 t1_ityr3f1 wrote
4 above Typescript
ar243 t1_ityrfi0 wrote
Take that, Brits.
kitty420dec t1_itz0zka wrote
Me on google rn: “Solidity courses for beginners”
KalWilton t1_itz1p15 wrote
I thought this as well, also they are hardware description languages. Thinking of them as programming languages in my opinion is not correct.
nicholasf21677 t1_itzdkxk wrote
These are entry-level developer salaries in the US. No senior developer is going to have a specific programming language in their job title.
wilcroft t1_itzi510 wrote
Eh. I’d mostly agree, though because you can use the output of an HDL to “program” an FPGA or CPLD, I’m not as much of a stickler on that particular semantic.
mata_dan t1_itzis4c wrote
Kotlin below Java is kind of funny too. But that's probably various landed senior positions in archaic companies where everything was all Java for a long time.
mata_dan t1_itzj55f wrote
At that point they've probably missed countless good engineers who could easily learn it in/for the role.
mata_dan t1_itzjntv wrote
It's like safer and more modern C++
rice_not_wheat t1_iu0bkf9 wrote
> I don't think they are, but the C++ developers need something to aspire to.
I can't stop laughing at this joke. Holy shit.
rice_not_wheat t1_iu0dsm6 wrote
Doesn't Python treat floats the same way as C?
trollsmurf t1_iu0n0ek wrote
Python should be compliant with IEEE 754 too, as that's what the CPU uses.
The Decimal module might be en par with the precision of COBOL.
lostharbor t1_iu0pooq wrote
Is react going to be inline or above javascript as it uses java?
[deleted] t1_iu0x7qg wrote
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corn-potage t1_iu0xf16 wrote
You don't need to be hired by a company to make money using Solidity for smart contracts - you can just build something yourself (or with some random person you met on Discord or Twitter with a food pfp) and make money. Many of those people are doing it without being tied to real life identity. That's like.. part of the big appeal of blockchains - disintermediating middlemen, companies, etc. I don't know that many companies hiring Solidity devs, although there are major companies like Microsoft or EY and such, dabbling in smart contracts and contributing to Ethereum ecosystem like with zk-proof stuff
OurNumber4 t1_iu0yhfa wrote
Or maybe a company like Reddit…
mrabstract29 t1_iu265i8 wrote
Scala is just high enough on the list to keep engineers from blowing their brains out afterwards. I'll shovel horse s**t for a living before I go back to working in a Scala shop.
ArkGuardian t1_iu341la wrote
Reddit is a VC backed crypto company. Several of it's key community features are built on blockchain. It doesn't change the point. Solidity is not a good language to learn by itself. If you have other software engineering skills you can add to your skillset to do smart contracts.
OurNumber4 t1_iu3jlib wrote
Reddit isn’t a crypto company. It’s one of the top 20 most visited websites in the world that has dipped its toe in crypto waters.
ArkGuardian t1_iu3l6l3 wrote
Reddit's engineering staff is massive now, but they do have quite a few crypto/crypto security engineers at this point. It doesn't change the fact about solidity. It should be no one's first language and I'd argue not even your primary language unless you are only working on first gen smart contracts. Limiting yourself to just smart contract work is very risk and there's languages more popular for both smart contracts and high performant applications (like Rust)
[deleted] t1_itv9kov wrote
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