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vurjin_oce t1_j1cwzyn wrote

Reply to comment by Horror_in_Vacuum in How did the Romans manage to arm most of their soldiers with swords? by Horror_in_Vacuum

Also take into account they weren't as pure or as advanced as medieval swords, but they were designed to be mass produced as they were simple design. So things like the handle and guard could be made quickly and efficiently.

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KGBFriedChicken02 t1_j1dqrgq wrote

Roman swords were also smaller than medieval swords, and meant for quick, close quarters, shove and stab combat. Even in movies and shows, they like to show roman legionnaires dueling, slashing with their swords, parrying and cutting.

The reality is the roman heavy infantry was a machine. The line moved forward. The enemy were presented with a wall of wood and iron and leather as the Legionnaires shoved forward with their shields, moving in to press up against their enemies. This restricted the space, making it difficult for the enemy to wield swords or axes or spears in the tight quarters. The small gaps in the shield wall were used to strike the enemy, the gladius' design was perfect for close up thrusting attacks. They'd simply shove and stab until the enemy were wiped out or broke and ran, advancing slowly all the while. Anyone who was simply woulded or knocked over would be trampled by the advancing shield wall, or dispatched by the men in the back ranks.

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Hyphenated_Gorilla t1_j1dtdm2 wrote

Excellent and accurate description!

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vurjin_oce t1_j1fy1t6 wrote

There is an old Roman proverb that was said when Greeks were making fun of the length of their swords. Romans replied it only needed to be long enough to reach your heart.

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Hyphenated_Gorilla t1_j1gptx7 wrote

I believe that was in Vegetius “Epitome of Military science”

Good book on the Roman strategy if you’ve not read it

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Intranetusa t1_j1k9xlh wrote

Note that the claim that Roman formations are too tight to use spears/axes/longer weapons/etc is a myth. A typical or common Roman infantry formation during the Republic or early Empire is described as having around 3 feet of space between each man. This is a rather spacious formation that gives each soldier plenty of room to deploy spear or sword, and is a more spacious formation than the classical Greek phalanxes that used heavy thrusting spears.

3 feet of space is also comparable to or greater than the spacing used by many pike formations, as many Rennisance European pikemen also had around 3 feet of space between each man and sometimes had as little as only 1.5 feet of space. Even the more loose formation of Ming Dynasty pikemen was still only 3.5 feet between each man according to the Ming military blog.

Thus, contrary to some belief that Roman combat was too cramped for spears, there would be no issue in using a long heavy thrusting spear or a 7 foot pila/throwing spear in melee combat when there was 3 feet of space between each man.

Of course, there could have been and probably were cases when the Romans switched to a much tighter formation where a shorter sword was more manuverable and easier to use than a long thrusting spears or pila in melee.

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Hyphenated_Gorilla t1_j1kbf0v wrote

Javalyn was also very common as a initial weapon.

Again, another good post.

Looking forward to the brawl

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ArkyBeagle t1_j1gwjzd wrote

> The reality is the roman heavy infantry was a machine.

The beginning of the 1999 film "Titus" ( an Anthony Hopkins starring adaptation of Shakespeare's "Titus Andronicus" ) has a Roman square in maneuvers in a ... soundstage? not an exterior sequence anyway.

It's one thing to read it and another to actually see it.

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Intranetusa t1_j1k9tcx wrote

> This restricted the space, making it difficult for the enemy to wield swords or axes or spears in the tight quarters. The small gaps in the shield wall were used to strike the enemy, the gladius' design was perfect for close up thrusting attacks.

The Roman formations were often even more loosely spaced than typical spear and pike formations. A typical or common Roman infantry formation during the Republic or early Empire is described as having around 3 feet of space between each man. This is a rather spacious formation that gives each soldier plenty of room to deploy spear or sword, and is a more spacious formation than the classical Greek phalanxes that used heavy thrusting spears.

3 feet of space is also comparable to or greater than the spacing used by many pike formations, as many Rennisance European pikemen also had around 3 feet of space between each man and sometimes had as little as only 1.5 feet of space. Even the more loose formation of Ming Dynasty pikemen was still only 3.5 feet between each man according to the Ming military blog.

Thus, contrary to some belief that Roman combat was too cramped for spears, there would be no issue in using a long heavy thrusting spear or a 7 foot pila/throwing spear in melee combat when there was 3 feet of space between each man.

Of course, there could have been and probably were cases when the Romans switched to a much tighter formation where a shorter sword was more manuverable and easier to use than a long thrusting spears or pila in melee.

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