Submitted by SAT0725 t3_1094lvy in massachusetts
Comments
SAT0725 OP t1_j3wh45g wrote
> because obviously class sizes are limited
Most community college are cancelling classes these days due to low enrollment. They might seat 20, for example, and have 14 in one and only three in another. So they cancel the second section and just move those students into the first if they can. Other times they'll cancel classes altogether.
When I teach adjunct it's about $2,500 for a semester to teach a full load (at least nine students). For every student less than that you get a pay cut, so most adjuncts won't teach for less than a full load. My class this coming spring only has five students, but I said I'd teach it anyway and it's only like $1,400 for approximately 16 weeks of work.
NerdWhoLikesTrees t1_j3whfpi wrote
That's unfortunate, but hopefully enrollment would shoot way up if it were free. For many people the cost, even though it's relatively inexpensive, is a lot of money to part with
Bobbydadude01 t1_j3whapl wrote
They would probably need admission tests/requirements if the demand is high enough.
I support completely free state schools for students, but I think we need to limit what majors people can go for. Like I love history but it's not the most useful thing to have an abundance of.
davper t1_j3xjrb7 wrote
I agree with limits of subjects. It should Liberal arts that can be transferred to any 4 year school. And include subjects like personal finances and basic culinary arts to prepare the student for the real world. Other classes could include basic intro to career paths. Showing required schooling and the potential income.
Bobbydadude01 t1_j3xksue wrote
....I don't think you know what community college is.
davper t1_j3xpn2y wrote
I know perfectly well what Community College is. I graduated from Bunker Hill back in the 90s. I managed to finish school without any student loans and no help from my parents
It is a great way to take college courses at a lower cost. But the sad part is, some 4 year colleges wont take all your credits. I graduated from CC with an AS in Accounting and an AS in Business Management. When I went to Bentley, I had to take several courses over again.
If they make it free, they should require certain classes.
Not every student takes classes that they should because they are focused only on career goals or a unique degree. I have had to deal with too many idiots fresh out of a 4 year that couldn't live on their own because they have no life skills and/or a degree that only qualifies them for a job at McDonald's.
Bobbydadude01 t1_j3xqwut wrote
Culinary arts being a required course is laughable.
mmmsoap t1_j3zs3mb wrote
> I graduated from CC with an AS in Accounting and an AS in Business Management. When I went to Bentley, I had to take several courses over again.
But those credits would almost assuredly have transferred to UMass. (I don’t know if that was true in the 90s, but it’s absolutely true today.) If you take classes from one of the state community colleges, any of the state universities of UMass will accept the credits. You’re talking about making policy for community college students because you chose to transfer to a private university that unsurprisingly wanted to maximize their revenue by not accepting (certain) transfer credits.
IntelligentMeal40 t1_j3xxt58 wrote
If they make it free it’s probably for matriculated students, which requires specific gen eds already.
At least that’s how it is in California, you have to be a resident of the state for a year, and you have to be matriculated. And you have to be poor enough to qualify for the fee waiver.
paganlobster t1_j3ydwsx wrote
>I graduated from Bunker Hill back in the 90s. I managed to finish school without any student loans and no help from my parents
lmao
NerdWhoLikesTrees t1_j3zdqzm wrote
Asshole
paganlobster t1_j42nd9q wrote
I just think it's funny that you whip this out like anyone can still do it.
NerdWhoLikesTrees t1_j4324s8 wrote
I'm not the commenter you quoted
paganlobster t1_j433b5a wrote
Ah okay, my bad. Then I think it's funny that the original commenter thinks that working through community college in the 90s is in any way still relevant.
NerdWhoLikesTrees t1_j433yl5 wrote
They were told "....I don't think you know what community college is." even though they literally went to bunker hill.
However relevant their experience actually is/was, I don't know.
But if I got my Associates at a community college and someone then told them that I don't know what community college is, yeah, I'd respond too lol.
NativeSon508 t1_j3xrg1b wrote
Sounds kinda like how I wish Voke schools were free for two years after high school. Asking 13/14 yr olds what field they want to work in for the rest of their lives is asinine. Let them graduate reg HS then at 18 they have a better understanding of what they want to do.
superbbuffalo t1_j3w178j wrote
If the state residents are paying for it, ALL residents should qualify.
MajorProblem50 t1_j3wlnhe wrote
Indeed but don't stop there, do it for food stamps, shelter, healthcare, energy, etc... Socialize all essential services.
Pure-Extension-9546 t1_j3xxv8g wrote
But then the miserable boomers would be sad because their bootstrap story is invalidated 🤣
Proof-Variation7005 t1_j3x7rlu wrote
I'd agree but I think targeting this the way they are makes sense because it allows you to have success stories and demonstrate the value before getting people sold on the higher price tag of extending this to 17-24 year olds.
marmosetohmarmoset t1_j3xvce5 wrote
That’s a good point. It could be a lower cost pilot program to show proof-of-concept that this kind of program is beneficial.
ArmlessGeodude t1_j3wroo7 wrote
All residents will qualify: so long as they meet the criteria to qualify that is set forth by the plan. My taxes have definitely gone to things I've never benefitted from. Anyone who wants to use this program and wouldn't qualify could change their circumstances.
marmosetohmarmoset t1_j3wixal wrote
But if all residents qualify then the amount all residents pay will also be higher. If there’s limited funding, it makes some sense to limit the number of people in the program to a strategic group where it would have the most impact. In this case they propose limiting it to people over the age of 25 who don’t already have a degree. It’s a lot more difficult to go back to school when you’re older- this could help lower that hurdle.
This is the kind of program, like many others, where not everyone directly benefits, but the whole state may indirectly benefits. There’s a critical shortage of medium-skilled technical workers in the state. Increasing the supply of people who are qualified to do these jobs could improve the state’s overall economy, leaving more funding for other programs.
Kind of odd how so many comments in this thread are focused on the program not being open to every single resident. This is very typical of how the government works. For example, everyone helps pay for SNAP benefits, but not everyone gets SNAP benefits- just the people who need it.
3720-To-One t1_j3wjsm1 wrote
You realize that just because all residents would qualify for free state college, doesn’t mean every resident would meet admissions requirements.
Your argument still boils down to ability to pay should decide who goes to college and who doesn’t.
I don’t understand why whenever there are conversations of free college, every acts like that would admit every single person who applies.
marmosetohmarmoset t1_j3wnxp6 wrote
Do community colleges have many admissions requirements? I thought not? This program is for community college, not 4-year state colleges.
To clarify, I think free state college for all residents would be great. But if for whatever reason that's not politically or economically feasible, then I think more limited strategic programs are better than doing nothing.
flamethrower2 t1_j3wpp7m wrote
High school diploma or GED. You would want someone who needs a GED to attend a GED-focused program.
marmosetohmarmoset t1_j3wqs5b wrote
Right. So that’s at least 90% of MA residents who would qualify.
Honestly I’d love to go to community college and pick up some random degrees and skills just for fun. I’m a nerd who loves school, and that’s probably exactly how I’d spend my time if I had unlimited funds. But I already have a PhD and a high-skill job, so that funding would be kind of wasted on me.
IntelligentMeal40 t1_j3xyj13 wrote
I don’t think it will be for people like me who would like to take some classes to learn American Sign Language for example I assume it’s just for matriculated students who don’t already have a bachelors degree
Bobbydadude01 t1_j3wz5cw wrote
>For example, everyone helps pay for SNAP benefits, but not everyone gets SNAP benefits- just the people who need it.
Horrible comparison. How many middle class Americans need to choose between debt or going without food? That's the reality of college now.
IntelligentMeal40 t1_j3xy8vf wrote
Exactly, wasn’t the main complaint about Biden’s plan to eliminate a chunk of student loan debt that some of that was going to people who don’t need it? It’s almost like Americans hate it when we help other Americans. It’s so weird. First they complain people who might not need $10,000 off their student long will get it, then they wanna complain people who might not need free college won’t get it.
Do y’all even hear yourselves.
I don’t know why we spend so much money on the military, there’s no one on earth completes the American people more than other American people.
NativeSon508 t1_j3xro4m wrote
Qualify yes, but there’s gotta be some kind of minimum grade requirement to continue the free education. Can’t just have people signing up and not taking it seriously or not showing up for classes.
[deleted] t1_j3y9fnk wrote
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GreatAndPowerfulNixy t1_j3wd6ch wrote
Yeah, fuck the poor!
ArmlessGeodude t1_j3wfhjz wrote
What
GreatAndPowerfulNixy t1_j3wpekb wrote
u/superbbuffalo is asserting that all residents should qualify for this assistance. Per the article, the aim is to train those over 25 without college degrees-- generally recognized as a class of lower-income individuals. By applying a blind eye to qualifications, it ignores the financial hurdles that lower-income individuals face when applying for a college education.
Basically, this is the same assertion as "all residents should get food stamps" while ignoring why SNAP exists exclusively for lower-income families.
ArmlessGeodude t1_j3wrs1q wrote
I think I'm in your side. Not very well said above, however.
Bobbydadude01 t1_j3wh33r wrote
What the fuck are you talking about.
Bobbydadude01 t1_j3w4663 wrote
Everyone or no one.
MrsMurphysChowder t1_j3wi8nl wrote
Agreed. It should also extend to voc-tech schools continuing ed programs. People who have gotten degrees sometimes find that career isn't working, or has dried up and need to switch gears. Older people looking for a job that will carry them through "retirement" could make themselves more attractive to potential employers by getting a second degree. A more fluid job market and better prepared workers could increase fair wages and better hiring practices.
[deleted] t1_j3wgo5u wrote
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Bobbydadude01 t1_j3wh0q0 wrote
No, it increases costs for most users. The lowest cost methods would either be tuition free or no financial aid at all.
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Bobbydadude01 t1_j3wispo wrote
No.
Increased student count increases operating costs, which increases the cost per student. It's also just fucked that my taxes go to fund other students going to these schools but my children may not be eligible.
Increased demand is part of the reason why college has gotten so expensive.
[deleted] t1_j3wjauw wrote
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Bobbydadude01 t1_j3wkcm2 wrote
>Taxes pay for fire fighters even if your house doesn't burn do
But they will be their if I need them
>Single people pay for schools their non-existent children won't use.
And if I have children they can go to them.
>. The more people that get an education, the better off we all are.
Limited financial aid makes it hard for many to go to schools and increases the debt many will have to go into. It increases costs, so many in the middle class either need to go into debt or just not go to school.
Increasing cost of education....bad
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warlocc_ t1_j3x3s0l wrote
I can understand the "without a degree" clause, but why over 25? Doesn't make sense. At that age, unless you're a trust fund baby, you probably have even less going for you.
marmosetohmarmoset t1_j3xvmvw wrote
Going back to school as an adult is harder than when fresh out of high school. Removing tuition as a factor could significantly lower hurdles for this population.
warlocc_ t1_j3y2ud8 wrote
You're not wrong. I don't think it invalidates my point either, though.
marmosetohmarmoset t1_j3y31bw wrote
I guess I’m not sure what you mean by “less going for you” or why that would mean you wouldn’t be a good candidate for this program?
warlocc_ t1_j3y46e2 wrote
To simplify it, I mean when I was 22 I was broke. When I was 32, I wasn't. For a lot of people, paying for something expensive at 32 should be easier than 22.
marmosetohmarmoset t1_j3y58r8 wrote
Do you already have a college degree and a decent job? Did you have kids or other expensive responsibilities when you were 32?
It sounds like this program is specifically targeting adults who don’t have existing training that would get them well-paying jobs. Or who might currently be in a dying industry and want to transition to a new line of work that the state is in need of workers for.
There are plenty of 30 year olds out there still working low-paying service jobs. But at 30 they’re more likely to also have significant expenses like children that a younger person would be less likely to have.
warlocc_ t1_j3yhfiw wrote
If you've already got a college degree, then obviously you're not who we're talking about.
If you've got kids... Presumably you knew you could afford to have kids.
Doesn't change the point I'm making that a young person probably has less money than an older person. Full stop.
marmosetohmarmoset t1_j3ynwkc wrote
I think you’re being a little naïve about how difficult it is to make a living in this state without a college degree. The point is a lot of adults aren’t doing better than 22 year olds.
warlocc_ t1_j3yq0m5 wrote
>I think you’re being a little naïve about how difficult it is to make a living in this state without a college degree.
On that, I guarantee I'm not. I'm in that camp myself.
marmosetohmarmoset t1_j3yt9zb wrote
I thought you said you weren’t broke anymore?
warlocc_ t1_j3z9r5w wrote
Yes, that's what I said.
What, do you think everyone without a college degree is broke? Now that is naïve.
That's the sort of attitude that makes so many of these kids think they need to take out huge loans they can't afford for degrees that won't help them, we gotta stop this attitude of "people without degrees will suffer".
michaelpenta t1_j3xijqb wrote
I know that in terms of financial aid in 25 years old is when your Parents income is no longer accounted for in your application for financial aid. For some students 25 years old is when they would be able to get a Pell grant because they are no longer counting their parents income. Since the federal pell grant covers a large cost of community college for many students it’s probably part of how they will cover the cost and why the age limit is 25.
Banea-Vaedr t1_j41ekyn wrote
I suspect it's meant to be to deal with chronic homelessness, as that's when the trend really tends to up. Factory workers (like, say, the 500 S&W workers Boston put out because they don't like their politics) who lose their jobs and need training in something else or they'll become homeless the rest of their lives
cheerocc t1_j3y8evi wrote
Im all for it but it would have to be for all people, regardless of age and income.
Banea-Vaedr t1_j41ee5b wrote
The idea seems to be to prioritize those at risk of chronic homelessness
SainTheGoo t1_j459paj wrote
Means testing is generally a waste of resources. If it's free, it should be free . No need for a costly bureaucracy that costs more than the simple inclusive option.
Banea-Vaedr t1_j45sftw wrote
"Age 25" is pretty inclusive and easy to verify
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The_eldritch_bitch t1_j3wuyy1 wrote
All or no one. Those of us living in the myth of the middle class are getting sucked dry with full price tuition, health insurance, utilities, food, daycare/childcare, etc.
seanwalter123 t1_j3wxfv8 wrote
About to honestly take a job at cvs or something. 10x easier, 100x the benefits.
IntelligentMeal40 t1_j3xxg8d wrote
I had free community college in California and it was so wonderful. I mean credits were only $26 each so I could have paid for it but apparently if you earn less than $40,000 they don’t want you to have to pay tuition so it was free. I took as many classes as I could it was wonderful
pillbinge t1_j3y8l5g wrote
>Healey says this would help train older adults in critical emerging industries like clean energy and advanced manufacturing.
This is a major problem, though - we aren't relying on those industries to train people reliably and sustainably. The emphasis on a college education means people are still focusing on one path, but they're doing it while not employed in that industry. You have to continually come prepared with an education - that may not even have caught up to real practices - instead of relying on a way to just give adults jobs. So just give adults jobs.
You can see these problems manifest in some fields where you need a degree to get in, but may not stay (e.g. teaching), or where you have people getting degrees in things that don't matter anyway, because the field didn't really need it and they switched a few years later regardless.
youarelookingatthis t1_j3wmt2x wrote
God Mariano is the worst, he completely drags down ideas and bills, I can't stand him.
Chunderbutt t1_j3zrqv9 wrote
If it’s not universal, it won’t last
[deleted] t1_j3x4wss wrote
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ouroboros899 t1_j3y786r wrote
“Some residents”
johnmh71 t1_j3zbvn4 wrote
You would think that they would maybe wait until the millionaire tax windfall actually proved to be just that before they started spending the money.
Rich people have a knack for not paying taxes. I point to Trump's tax returns as an example.
PuritanSettler1620 t1_j3wyiqz wrote
This is smart education is our future and is worth investing in. Hopefully if it works they can expand the program. Hope it succeeds!
pillbinge t1_j3y8gsb wrote
What does that even mean? "Education is our future"?
Workacct1999 t1_j3yaclz wrote
An educated population benefits everyone.
pillbinge t1_j3z902d wrote
But we already are an educated population, and can barely do more, outside of making things fairer outside schools. We are the educated population philosophers and people like Horace Mann imagined. The bar just gets moved.
Never mind that you aren't the person I was asking, and they were just giving a cliché. In this case, it's education to convince others to hire them over just hiring people where they can learn on the job. That's stupid.
PuritanSettler1620 t1_j3yccdr wrote
With an educated populace we will be able to ensure that our commonwealth will remain vibrant and strong. Our forebears knew this which is why Harvard was founded here and public school was invented here.
DCExpat603 t1_j3xe9ri wrote
As Mike Tyson famously said, "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face."
There is no such thing as "free". And much like "supporting" worthy causes by hitting a "like" button on some heartstring-plucking social media post, versus publicly organizing and funding a lobbying effort to effect whatever "worthy" change people think they want, when presented with a real bill requiring real money to pay for said change, we quickly learn that virtue signals have many parents and actual virtue is an orphan.
BlaineTog t1_j414dtx wrote
We had a funding surplus this year. We can find the money to help people better themselves, especially since education will enable them to get better jobs in the future, generating more tax revenue as a result.
You gotta spend money to make money.
Cost_Additional t1_j3yjj29 wrote
You're 25 and older but can't figure out how to get a loan?
seanwalter123 t1_j3wx8v2 wrote
I’ll be the first to sign up for the lawsuit against this. Becoming increasingly hard to be a taxpayer in this state.
BlaineTog t1_j4146db wrote
Free college is an investment in the future. A highly educated populace is more productive than a less-educated one. This sort of initiative pays for itself in the long run.
seanwalter123 t1_j417dpo wrote
I just paid 18$ for eggs… I couldn’t care less about “free college” when I along with others are going into debt from food and utilities.
BlaineTog t1_j419rcb wrote
That's a separate problem. We are capable of addressing multiple problems at the same time - and we should, to head off worse problems in the future. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably a Conservative politician trying to distract you while they cut taxes for their billionaire owners.
seanwalter123 t1_j41ndns wrote
You have an awful lot of confidence in these elected representatives.
BlaineTog t1_j41xucq wrote
No, I don't. That's why I try to pay attention to what they're doing and vote accordingly. I would hope that everyone else does the same, rather than voting down all expenses and hoping that the politicians do good things with the money I've saved them in the short term.
kennetcook t1_j3wt1vj wrote
What about the people who paid in the past are they going to get refund
throwsplasticattrees t1_j3xyjs6 wrote
I don't have children and yet a fair amount of my property tax and state income tax goes to support the public school system. Doesn't seem fair, now does it?
Its just me and the wife, but I have to purchase a family health insurance policy that is more than double the cost of a single plan. Doesn't seem fair, now does it?
We live in a society where we all contribute at different levels and receive benefits in different amounts. Just because you don't get a direct benefit doesn't mean you don't benefit. It's how it works.
NerdWhoLikesTrees t1_j3wffjs wrote
I always supported free Community College but it should be everyone 18 and up, with priority given to people without a college degree already (because obviously class sizes are limited).