Submitted by Dmurphy2016 t3_10a9x6w in massachusetts
I’m looking to hear from people who have heat pumps. What kind of system do you have? ( ductless/ ducted. Heat pump with oil/propane backup) Everyone is pushing for heat pumps but I’m looking to hear from people in ma who have them and heat with them and what they think.
I wish we could take advantage of mass save! Unfortunately our town has a municipal power co so we can’t take advantage of the rebates. But our power is a lot cheaper. We are building a new construction so trying to decide our heating/ cooling. Definitely doing forced air. Thinking of doing heat pump and oil backup/hot water (have had oil never propane so not sure about that route) but may do propane not sure yet.
Still check if your town has incentives and don’t forget about federal tax breaks too.
Who did you use to install your heat pump? I'm in Westford and have an ancient gas furnace/forced hot air, plus two small heat pumps serving two rooms without furnace ducting.
I like the two mini-splits, have had them for 7-8 years and there have maybe been handful of days where those rooms were uncomfortably cold because the heat pumps couldn't extract heat from below 0 outside air.
The rebates/tax incentives for whole house heat pumps are looking pretty attractive, especially since we don't have central air now.
Milltown. They handled all the paperwork for the rebate as well. All in all I was happy with the work - they had some issues with the thermostats and controls but they kept on it until they (and I) were sure it worked correctly. You also get a year of free service contract as part of the install.
Note that you'll need to get the MassSave efficiency assessment done to get the rebate, and also might need to upgrade your insulation.
In RI, we can choose our electricity provider. I selected one that’s 100% renewables. The entire state is targeting 2035 for 100% renewable electricity. I’d be shocked if Mass wasn’t going in a similar direction.
I’m next door in RI in a town bordering Mass.
Ductless for the basement and ground floor. Ducted ductless in the attic for the upstairs (2 BR and bathroom). They’re Mitsubishi Hyper Heat units and work great even in very cold below-zero temps. No propane or other backups. The house had an older gas furnace with baseboard heat that I could use in a pinch but I’ve never needed to use it. I will probably have it ripped out and the gas line for it capped, because it’s quite old and I could use the space in the basement.
One of the biggest “Diamond” contractors for Mitsubishi cold weather ductless is Superior Comfort. They service RI and most of SE Mass. Diamond contractor employment gives you a longer warranty on the unit.
I fully expect this system to last 20+ years. They’re reliable workhorses.
WhT do you do for hot water?
Electric tankless water heater. Love it!
Fully electric or a hybrid one?
Fully electric. An EcoSmart. I had to bump up the electrical panel from 100 amp to support both the new HVAC and water heater, but it’s worth it.
We've got two ductless head units on a 24k condenser for a 1200sqft townhouse. Got them installed primarily for the AC, but we ended up also using them for heat as well. I run them in conjunction with gas powered baseboard heat.
I've used them exclusively for an entire month in the winter while getting our furnace replaced, they were more than up to it. They're super efficient during the late fall / early spring for heat, and during this halfassed fake winter too.
I like using them for heat because it provides a nice warm breeze, and it brings the house up to temp in the morning way faster than baseboard can. Warm air moving around makes the whole place seem cozier. They help circulate the warm air from our high ceilings down too.
The AC is immaculate, keeps this place ice cold all summer.
Install process was super fast and non-invasive, day and half at most.
Have a 5 ton Mitsubishi hyper heat ducted whole house heat pump here in my 2250 sq ft house. Wonderful system, no issues even when extremely cold. Never needed it yet but there is an add on to the ducted air handler that provides additional electric resistor heat should it be needed. So don't buy into crap that HVAC guys tell you such as you need a backup gas furnace. You don't if you get Mitsubuishi hyper heat with ducted air handler. Mini splits are better than nothing but I far prefer a ducted system. I wouldn't touch anything other than Mitsubishi personally.
Doing my research.. going to be doing new construction. Thinking of doing heat pump with oil/propane backup ( also needed for hot water) but just looking for opinions as I’m new to the heat pump thing.
You can do hot water with your heat pump too. Like the previous poster said, you really don't need oil or propane backup. If the temp gets so low the heat pump doesn't do much you can get temporary old school resistance heat through the same unit. Yeah, it's more expensive when it runs that way, but it will rarely be used. Certainly not more expensive than installing an entire second heating system.
If your new construction includes air ducts for forced air then just make sure the ducts are specced big enough for heat pump heating because I've been told that "older" forced air duct work is often inadequate. Shouldn't be an issue for you but thought I would mention. Was not an issue for me in my 15 year old house.
Also look at hybrid heat pump electric hot water heater. Those also save tons of money and would help you avoid needing to burn fossil fuels in your house - no need for a oil/propane furnace. Propane and oil are both insanely expensive. If it were me no way would I sign up on oil/propane reliance. Before I converted I was being charged well over $4/gal for propane. Crazy expensive. I have favorable math because my electricity is cheap (~$0.13/kWh) but even with more expensive electricity prices avoidance of oil and or propane is very wise IMO.
If you go full blown electrification as I did (I even got an EV last year) just make sure you plan for 50 amp circuit for air handler backup heat, and a 40 amp circuit for hybrid electric hot water heater.
Ugh did the installer mention the thing about old ductwork? My FHA duct work is 20+ years old. I want to add a ducted system but hoping this doesn’t limit me.
Yeah one of the three HVAC installers I had over to provide quote told me this. Do your own research - it may not be a pervasive issue. Also the Mitsu ducted air handler is pretty big so it may not fit in every furnace replacement scenario. But it won't cost you anything to find out. Go to Mitsu's web site and call diamond contractors in your area and ask for a quote. And worst case is you can still do ductless mini split heat pumps if you can't put in a ducted a system. Honestly that is what most people do - I don't think tons of people are converting their whole house system like I did. Adding on some ductless minisplit units is also a pretty wise move if that's your only/best option.
Really appreciate the info!
Agreed. Mitsubishi is the heat pump company for winter weather states like ours.
Heat pumps are great. If you are doing new construction you might consider looking at a geothermal HP as well. A lot of folks question it due to the initial cost of the well but the folks I know with them swear by them. Heat. Hot water. A/C.
Built my house a year ago, went with R5 continuous exterior insulation + R21 cavity with ducted Mitsubishi Hyper Heat pumps. Make sure your HVAC contractor knows what he's doing, mine didn't and the units are more than double the BTUs I need. This results in the system cycling a lot & crazy electric bills (last month $660) for heating only 2200sf... Otherwise it's a way better system purely because you never even notice when it's running unlike a furnace. The fans can be set extremely low if you buy a good unit.
I have a Gree 30kBTU with two units, an 18 and a 12. I bought it due to being on the Mass Rebate list due to Seer rating. Down to about 40 degrees outside I use it almost exclusively. Below that is where the efficiency starts to dive and I have a Navien for heat so I switch to that with Nat gas. My electric bill has not been higher than $120. My gas bill has not been higher than $230 and includes hot water and stove.
What is a heat pump ,never heard of this?
An air conditioner is a heat pump that's set up to only move heat from inside to out. A heat pump is set up to push heat in either way so in the winter you can have it push heat into the house. There is a bunch of physics behind it that you can read into.
They get really good efficiency rating because they are just moving energy around by explioting how gases evaporate and condense instead of just converting energy into heat. cold weather does reduce efficiency though.
I was just going to post something similar, so thank you.
I’m doing 1000sq foot 2 story addition and thinking of doing ductless heat pumps exclusively. (and apply for mass save rebate)
I currently have forced hot air/air conditioning in the existing part of the house and wondering if I can get away with the ductless heat pumps for the addition. I’ll have a gas fireplace on the first floor addition, but just a bedroom on the second floor. Anyone know if this is even allowed in MA? Or will I have to have my existing system ducted into the new space for backup?
I had Samsung mini splits installed in December, because of the $10,000. rebate. The cost to use them will be zeroed out by the 33 solar panels on the roof.
When building a new building, make it work for solar panels. The mini splits then become the obvious choice.
$10,000 rebate? I thought the federal program was only for pumps installed in 2023?
The rebate is from National Grid in Massachusetts. I don't know about other programs.
Mitsubishi H2i is the king of heat pumps
Got Mitsubishi minisplits at our place last year which I found out no longer qualify for the rebate. Put a Bosch system in to replace an old AC ducted system literally yesterday at our rental and made damn sure the AHRI is on the qualified list this time.
Def nice to have a nat gas boiler on extremely cold days. The efficiency of even the best HP today drops significantly the colder it gets. I’d go IBC combi if you need both a water heater and gas boiler. We have oil heat and I plan on removing the tank and boiler down the road or converting to wood pellets.
I believe in 2023 you can get 750 back for a heat pump water heater as well which can also help control humidity in a basement.
If I do heat pump I would do propane as a backup hest as I will need hot water as well, probably a tankless hot water heater or maybe one of those hybrids water heaters
Yep, my neighbor has propane as a backup and seems to work for his solar + heat pump setup. I would check out heat pump water heater if you can get 750 off
https://www.masssave.com/residential/rebates-and-incentives/heat-pump-water-heaters
Unfortunately municipal electric so no mass save rebates
I have a Mitsubishi Hyperheat, a floor unit and wall unit on the 1st floor and ducted in the second floor. I already had the ducts on the second floor from A/C, which it is nice to have the ducts, providing direct heating in the bathrooms, walk-in closets, and hallway, that I wouldn't have gotten in an all ductless system.
Of course, the one thing to watch out for currently is that you get a good electric rate locked in. If you have the standard National Grid rate (and even some deregulated suppliers), of 48¢, that's more expensive than oil to operate! I have a good rate, 12.69¢ supply, which I'll break even around year 17, as long as it makes it that far!
[deleted]
Central Mass. Primary heat source is oil furnace. A couple years ago we installed a mitsubishi ductless heat pump and ac.
1 heat pump /1 register for the whole first floor. 1 heat pump/3 registers for each bedroom upstairs.
Electric heat is expensive! We do not run them all the time. We keep the heat (oil) around 60. We'll turn on a heat pump in one room just to take the chill off for 15 min or so as needed.
Side note. Our neighbors built an apartment above the garage for the mil. Mitsubishi heat pump / ac. It's the only source of heat. $900 monthly electric bill!
I believe it. I also central ma. Had a 1500sqft colonial. Oil baseboard heat. Put in 2 mini split systems one up stairs and one down stairs. The heat was very expensive to run and I ended up just burning oil instead, much cheaper!
Recently upgraded to a Bosch 20 SEER heat pump from an older Lexington model that had problems. House is 100% electric with small high-velocity ducts, so we had to go with Unico brand air handler (electric backup furnace is part of this).
In winter, the system works best when you don’t have a huge swing in your temperature settings (meaning it will have to work really hard if you want it 70 during the day and 60 at night). Heat pumps remove heat from the house in summer, and move heat from the outside to inside in winter- so if it’s really cold it’s not as efficient. But it still works.
It came with an ecobee thermostat which is fairly smart and shows all the data of what equipment is running over time (since there are variable stages in both indoor and outdoor units).
One benefit is that it also dehumidifies- which makes it much more comfortable in the summer.
Big complaint is that MassSave does not offer any rebates for the small duct high velocity systems, which are common for retrofitting old homes around here. Be sure to pick a set of indoor/outdoor units from the MassSave list, which is updated every year. Your installer takes care of the paperwork for any rebates. There are some requirements, like getting a heat pump to replace oil/gas. Not sure if that applies for new construction.
DunkinRadio t1_j431695 wrote
Lowell area. Had a whole house ducted Bosch heat pump installed last summer. $10K rebate from MassSave made it go down pretty easy. Kept gas furnace for backup. Heat pump is supposed to work down to 5F, at which point it will fall back to the furnace. Of course that has not been tested out yet.
No functional issues - keeps the house warm fine. Of course, hasn't been deathly cold yet. Just a couple of mornings below 20F. Back of the envelope calculation for December shows that heating cost was more or less the same as if we'd used the gas furnace. Used much less energy though and (presumedly) generated less CO2. We'll see what happens this month. If it's outrageous, we'll go back to the furnace full-time.
TL;DR - you'll probably save energy with a heat pump, but due to the high cost of electricity around here, you probably won't save much money. Remember that heat pump also covers your A/C needs.