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Boats_are_fun t1_j2u1hj6 wrote

Do not involve the police in your life unless there is absolutely no alternative.

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Clinically-Inane t1_j2u3zyb wrote

I read their body cams were on, so until we see proof there was justified reason to shoot and kill a child who had a knife I’m going to assume the same thing I always do for now: the cops likely killed someone in the grips of a serious mental health crisis because there was no attempt at useful deescalation (they probably don’t even know how to spell it) and somebody was jumpy

And sure, I could be wrong. But I could also be right, and have been many times before about shit like this. It’s incredibly sad either way, but if this ends up being a child who desperately needed help but “fell through the cracks” and is dead today because nobody intervened until a shot was fired— it’s one more name on a long list of names failed by this state’s abysmal mental health resources and services

We all deserve better

ETA: [https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2023-01-04/police-shot-gilford-teen-allegedly-armed-with-a-knife-within-two-minutes-of-arriving-call-logs-show]

🔼some new info from earlier tonight that’s relevant to this particular conversation. You can see in the link that it says logs show he was tased and shot within two minutes of when the police got there, but this article also mentions prior calls to the residence for claims of Mischa behaving violently— nothing is mentioned about any charges or arrests or detainments, or interventions/mental health treatment/diagnoses/etc

Directly quoted:

**Fay’s mother called 911 at 9:52 p.m. asking for assistance with her son who ‘has a knife and is in a rage.’

At the time of the call, Merrill Fay, Mischa’s father, was locked in his office inside the house, according to the police report.

Two Gilford police officers arrived at the home on Varney Point Road at 9:56 p.m. Within two minutes, one officer had fired a Taser, while another officer fired his gun. It’s not clear from the police report how much time passed between the Taser being fired and the fatal gunshot. The officers attempted CPR before Fay was transported to a local hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

It isn’t clear how officers may have attempted to engage with Fay, or what prompted the officer to fire their gun. An investigation into the shooting is “active and ongoing” according to the New Hampshire Attorney General’s office**

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messypawprints t1_j2urbyh wrote

Good point. I like your explanation. I’m feeling that it’s the opposite because it’s NH and not some national news. This was their community - those police honestly probably knew this household/family.

I’ll definitely be looking for the follow up video. Such a sad thing.

12

Few-Afternoon-6276 t1_j2v247t wrote

Yeah they knew this family!! They own a huge boat yard, the give back to the community, they donated a skating arena( funds to build it), they are VERY WELL KNOWN…

Something isn’t right- how does one go from knife and stun gun to shooting -

This is another sad story … when will we learn how to deal with mental illness and deescalate?

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ACOdysseybeatsRDR2 OP t1_j2vkqgy wrote

I'm honestly worried the cop that shot drew their gun accidentally, remarkably scary how often that happens.

−5

Familiar_Stomach7861 t1_j2w9jev wrote

Okay hold up….I understand getting jumpy with an itchy trigger finger and accidentally squeezing without thinking…. BUT HOW IN THE FUCK DO YOU ACCIDENTALLY DRAW YOUR GUN WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. You don’t accidentally pull your gun out of your holster….

8

SheeEttin t1_j2wbvxz wrote

Insufficient training to build the proper muscle memory, maybe. I'm sure it doesn't help that tasers are gun-shaped.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/14/nyregion/taser-manslaughter-cases-kim-potter.html

5

America_the_Horrific t1_j2wg68x wrote

It's not insufficient training, that's a bullshit cop out. It's what they are trained to do warrior training bullshit is rampant in US police departments and it ultimately boils down to "shoot first or you'll be shot"

7

Vivid-Construction93 t1_j2ww1b5 wrote

You do know cops are severely undertrained for their jobs in most aspects right. And attending a rifle or pistol course isnt exactly training either especially when not every course is created equal

1

masochist_malarky t1_j2yhwer wrote

Absolutely retarded take, you’ve clearly never had any sort of training or met anyone who’s ever been trained.

0

interweb_gangsta t1_j2wr58v wrote

>And sure, I could be wrong. But I could also be right, and have been many times before about shit like this. It’s incredibly sad either way, but if this ends up being a child who desperately needed help but “fell through the cracks” and is dead today because nobody intervened until a shot was fired— it’s one more name on a long list of names failed by this state’s abysmal mental health resources and services

What are they doing then in the training? I see the police academy in Concord and they all march like 1 to have a lunch every single day. If they are not practicing pulling their weapons and how to make a difference between them then training is insufficient or police officer didn't meet the criteria to become one. Lastly - they might not have enough repetitive training. If a person was trained 5-10 years ago and if in those 5-10 years police officer never had to pull out a weapon then there has to be some sort of yearly and mandatory training.

This is very, very sad.

−1

Connect_Stay_137 t1_j2voo26 wrote

Tldr: kid has psychological breakdown. Local community does nothing and calls police, police tell kid to drop knife. He dosnt and rushes at police, get shot.

Don't call the cops when you can talk someone down

9

vexingsilence t1_j2x0v6h wrote

>Don't call the cops when you can talk someone down

So why didn't anyone?

Mental illness isn't curable by just talking to someone. Especially in a crisis. Nothing like other people in this thread vilifying the cops for doing what they're trained to do.

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Connect_Stay_137 t1_j2x621k wrote

Blame a shitty societal view of men's health and men's issues as bad VS blame cops

4

vexingsilence t1_j2x6k3b wrote

Many cops are men too. I don't like cops for a variety of reasons but given a situation with a bad actor with a knife vs cops using lethal force, I'm not going to jump to the cops as being bad without a good reason. Crazy that society views a knife-wielder that caused enough scare that cops were called as being the good guy with no other information.

3

Clinically-Inane t1_j2yifam wrote

It’s not crazy to question this situation or be concerned when there’s dozens of examples of cops explicitly lying about situations that ended with a shooting, fatal or not

We don’t know what happened Saturday, but we do know that the cops cannot and should not be trusted and automatically taken at their word by default, because they frequently lie and protect each other. We don’t really have to worry about whether this 17yo’s version of the story is true, because he’s not around to tell it. We get ONE source (barring the family speaking out) and that one source is known to be unreliable. When it comes to internal investigations of criminal acts by police: they do their own, which usually works out very nicely for them

They shot Breonna Taylor asleep in her goddamn bed because they BUSTED DOWN THE WRONG DOOR, but there sure was a lot of bullshit explanation/details about why that happened until the truth finally started trickling out. We still don’t even have the full picture of what exactly happened though, because everyone involved has been so shady about it

tl;dr Crazy that society would automatically trust the word of random strangers with guns and badges who are well known to be quite liberal with their use and fairly dishonest about the reasons for that

2

vexingsilence t1_j2ykxc8 wrote

>We don’t know what happened Saturday

You could have stopped right there. Whether or not cops lie, regardless of other incidents in far away states, the only information we have (last I looked) was that the police used a taser and a firearm and the person with the knife died. Beyond that, any assumptions are pure fantasy. But it seems like a lot of people in this thread have already cast a verdict that the police are guilty, which is ironic considering that's what they're accusing the cops of.

Given a knife wielding suspect and the fact that someone was disturbed enough by the person's behavior to call 911, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the police, even if they're not 100% trustworthy. Normal folks don't wield a knife and cause others to call 911 for help to deal with them.

1

Clinically-Inane t1_j2z0ppz wrote

My exact words were “cops cannot and should not be trusted and automatically taken at their word by default”

I’m not saying there’s no way this wasn’t justified, or that cops never tell the truth, or that nobody should ever call them

I’m saying: why would I give the benefit of the doubt to people who are well known to be corrupt as a whole and brazenly show us that over and over? I haven’t cast a verdict that the police are “guilty” here, I’ve cast a verdict that any time they kill someone it should immediately be considered that maybe the bad apples have actually ruined the fucking bunch and someone may have died needlessly

I’m saying a 17yo is dead, due to a cop’s actions, and historically it’s not improbable that this could have been avoided— because cops are notoriously bad with mental health crises and deescalation

I’m saying it’s a red flag worth looking at closely when the people responsible for enforcing law and order end a civilian’s life. Do you disagree?

1

vexingsilence t1_j2z31r3 wrote

>why would I give the benefit of the doubt to people who are well known to be corrupt as a whole

In other words.. ACAB, right? You're just saying it in long form.

Do you have any evidence that the particular police department in this incident has a history of bad acts? Or is it just the badge that turns an ordinary person into someone that can't be trusted and must be looked at under a microscope?

If a homeowner had killed the knife wielder, would you be as suspicious?

These incidents do get reviewed, and that's part of why they haven't released a ton of information yet. But there's a whole lot of speculating going on here despite that.

>I’m saying it’s a red flag worth looking at closely when the people responsible for enforcing law and order end a civilian’s life. Do you disagree?

What I disagree with it the sentiment that just because they wear a badge that they were somehow guilty something, or the strong insinuation that they're likely to have done something wrong. It's not like they shot an unarmed person in the back.

Yes, it needs to be investigated, but considering that the individual was armed and caused enough distress that someone called 911, it's more likely than not that the police acted appropriately. Bad shoots are rare, despite what the media would have people believe.

Imagine being the cop that felt they had no choice but to end someone's life, and the public is out for blood despite knowing almost nothing about the details of the incident.

1

Clinically-Inane t1_j2z88wq wrote

  1. “It’s not like they shot an unarmed person in the back”

Do we even know that, Captain Waitforfacts?

  1. Your homeowner/cop comparison is ludicrous, irrelevant, and misleading, and I’m pretty sure you know that. What if it had been the Papa John’s delivery guy? What if it had been the mailman? What if it had been his dad?

  2. I have personal experience with the police killing people under very shady circumstances; my cousin died in the lobby of a Wendy’s (where he was told to stay) when the cops fired THIRTY ROUNDS in an open restaurant because an attempted robbery suspect with a fake gun was fleeing. My cousin got a bullet to his heart, and the suspect got at least one in the back while he was running away in the parking lot. Neither of those men should have ended up dead.

Do I think experiencing that has affected my views on law enforcement? Fuck yeah I do. Before that, this was something horrible and unjust that “happened to other people”. Then suddenly it was happening to me, and I was forced to confront the common brutality that most of us don’t take seriously enough because it’s NOT personal enough. I was already ripping my ACAB kazoo before I lost my cousin, but it shouldn’t take a personal loss for people to pause and say “well fuck, this keeps happening and we need some massive reforms NOW.” I’ve imagined “being the cop who had to choose to end a life” many many times; every single time the conclusion I come to is “that’s almost never the best or only choice and is often the outright wrong choice so Im not sending any thoughts and prayers out to cops with kill counts”

  1. If you have more to say feel free, but if it’s more bad faith bullshit like “what if a homeowner had shot the knife wielder?” I’ll be on the bench not playing that game
1

vexingsilence t1_j2zagbt wrote

>“It’s not like they shot an unarmed person in the back”
>
>Do we even know that, Captain Waitforfacts?

From the article:

"Police in New Hampshire shot and killed a person armed with a knife after responding to a 911 call, authorities said on Monday."

So yes, we know the person was armed with a knife.

>Your homeowner/cop comparison is ludicrous, irrelevant, and misleading, and I’m pretty sure you know that.

Nice dodge. You seem to suggest that a person becomes untrustworthy by simply wearing a badge. My question is on point. If the knife wielding person was shot and killed by someone without a badge, would you be as suspicious? It's a relevant question given your argument.

>my cousin died in the lobby of a Wendy’s (where he was told to stay) when the cops fired THIRTY ROUNDS in an open restaurant because an attempted robbery suspect with a fake gun was fleeing.

Assuming that's true, were any of those cops working for the police department involved with this incident? You seem to be vilifying an entire profession for the questionable actions of a select few.

Hope you never need surgery, there are surgeons out there that have committed malpractice, therefore they're all bad or at least presumed bad by your logic.

>every single time the conclusion I come to is “that’s almost never the best or only choice and is often the outright wrong choice

Lives aren't at stake when you're sitting on your ass pondering that.

>If you have more to say feel free, but if it’s more bad faith bullshit like “what if a homeowner had shot the knife wielder?” I’ll be on the bench not playing that game

Nothing bad faith about it. But you've revealed yourself as an irrational person who likely needs counseling. Your personal trauma doesn't make every cop out there an evil person. It doesn't even make the cops in the situation you described at the Wendy's evil people. I doubt any of them had the intent to kill bystanders. That sounds more like bad training, which can be the result of this whole idiotic "defund the police" BS that's going around. It's only going to get worse as the type of sentiments expressed in this thread cause more qualified people to avoid the profession leaving the police to hire any warm body they can find.

1

Clinically-Inane t1_j2ziunn wrote

Headlines are not facts. We don’t know that he even had the knife when he was shot, only that it was mentioned in the 911 call. We also don’t know that he wasn’t shot in the back while trying to run out of the house, so settle tf down

That wasn’t a dodge, it was a stupid question. If you want an answer: I’d be sus if someone random shot an intruder and I’d want exactly the same info looked into to ensure it wasn’t actually just reckless unnecessary homicide. I see way too many people (especially locally) bragging about how they can’t wait to use their new gun if any POS tries to rob them to be naive enough to not have questions there. Guns make some people— including cops— feel invincible and powerful, and that’s a common issue that can lead to really bad situations

My cousin was not killed in New England, and I have no idea who works at the police department in question here. I’m doing fine and have a therapist (long before my cousin died because I actively care about my well-being, but my therapist is also ACAB) and if you go back and re-read you’ll notice I mentioned I was firmly ACAB before my cousin even died, but his death and the injustice involved in BOTH deaths that night cemented the opinions and feelings I already had about our failure to reform law enforcement. For context, I’ve had extensive convos/debates exactly like this one before he died; I just didn’t have a personal connection to the topic then. My “personal trauma” isn’t why I think cops are ALL bastards— I think they’re ALL bastards because even the good ones are not actually good if they’re working with and backing up the shitty ones who should be behind bars

A good cop is one who quits as soon as they realize they’re working for an armed fraternity that regularly harms the public and tries to cover it up

I’m exhausted and about ready to wrap this up but friendly tip: women get called hysterical, emotional, irrational, and MORE so often you really shouldn’t waste your time with it anymore. It just doesn’t have the effect you want it to, and it makes you look like you’re too stupid to converse with. It’s not a flaw to have emotions and share them, it’s not a sign of mental illness to have strong emotions and/or feel very passionately about something, you’re wasting your time when you play the clean version of the “get some help, you crazy bitch” card, and suggesting therapy to someone because they actively and loudly want cops to stop harming and killing civilians kind of makes you look like the crazy bitch here

Maybe you should seek therapy for whatever trauma has caused you to get so emotional and irrationally worked up when defending cops ❤️

ps- yes, I am a criminal and I’m SO EMBARRASSED that you outed me like this. I literally just left a mugging and was on my way to meet your dad for drinks and maybe trying to bust open an ATM later but now I’m going to have to sulk all night and try to find a new identity before the police see this post 😞

1

vexingsilence t1_j2zl3sp wrote

>Headlines are not facts. We don’t know that he even had the knife when he was shot, only that it was mentioned in the 911 call.

Again, for the reading impaired:

"Police in New Hampshire shot and killed a person armed with a knife after responding to a 911 call, authorities said on Monday."

The way it's phrased describes the police shooting someone that's armed with a knife, not this alternate scenario that you've come up with.

​

>I’d be sus if someone random shot an intruder and I’d want exactly the same info looked into to ensure it wasn’t actually just reckless unnecessary homicide.

Ok. Not sure what a "necessary homicide" is, but that's something. Are you trying to avoid the word "justified" because it's a term used for police involved shootings?

​

>I think they’re ALL bastards because even the good ones are not actually good if they’re working with and backing up the shitty ones who should be behind bars.

That's irrational. Do you have any reason to believe that there's anything nefarious going on with the department involved with this incident? It sounds like you don't, yet you're vilifying them anyway based purely on their profession.

​

>A good cop is one who quits as soon as they realize they’re working for an armed fraternity that regularly harms the public and tries to cover it up.

Are you wanting every cop on the planet to quit?

​

>women get called hysterical, emotional, and MORE so often you really shouldn’t waste your time with it anymore.

Holy hell. I had no idea what your gender was nor do I care. I'm calling you irrational because your opinions here are irrational.

​

>t’s not a flaw to have emotions and share them, it’s not a sign of mental illness to have strong emotions and/or feel very passionately about something.

Attributing the acts of a very small number of cops that have no connection to anyplace near here to the police involved in this incident based on almost no information is clearly not backed by any sort of logical thinking.

1

Clinically-Inane t1_j307y72 wrote

A “necessary homicide” would be exactly what we’re talking about here: the death of a person due to someone else’s actions, which in this case you say is likely justified because the police had to do it (I have no problems with the word justified so I have no effing clue what you’re talking about there)

It’s not an expression I’ve ever even seen; I just said UNNECESSARY meaning senseless/preventable/avoidable

“The way it’s phrased—“ 👉HEADLINES ARE NOT FACTS👈

The title of a news article SHOULD reflect the actual facts but sometimes they don’t, or they’re just worded poorly, and we have no idea whether they used that phrasing because it’s word for word reflecting what actually happened, or if the person who wrote it used that headline because it just made sense: the police responded to a call about someone armed with a knife, so therefore he must have had a knife when he was shot. I once saw a WMUR headline that said “Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Facing Death Penalty And More Snow” and I just really don’t think assuming you’re getting cold hard concrete facts from headline wording is a great idea. Do not recommend. Certain things, sure— I’m not going to quibble about whether the cops were involved or whether someone even died because I’m not an asshole devil’s advocate. But I don’t read that headline and get the same takeaway as you, so there’s obviously some confusion possible around it

Maybe he did have the knife on him, I don’t know that and I have no way to know for now, but ffs for someone braying to the heavens about how “We should all wait for the FACTS!” you’re pretty heavy into calling your own assumptions (that this kid MUST have been a lethal threat holding a knife, and there was no other choice, because “the wording on one headline sounds like that’s definitely the case”) about what happened correct and everyone else’s ✨wrong✨. How about what happened when they went in? Do you have that intel? Did they all yell at the same time and point guns at the kid? Was he told to do multiple different things at once, ie “DONT MOVE!” and “ON THE GROUND!” and “DROP THE WEAPON!” all yelled within 3 seconds? I’m sure you’ll share with the class

Don’t you get exhausted defending people with a lot more power than the rest of us who we know abuse it frequently in various ways and then tell us to suck it up when they get caught lying about it? You’re really going hard for the cops here, and they really don’t deserve it at this point

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vexingsilence t1_j324855 wrote

I didn't base anything on the headline. The body of the article clearly states that the individual was armed with a knife according to the authorities. Could the reporter have gotten that wrong? Possible, but unlikely.

> You’re really going hard for the cops here

I'm going hard for not sentencing the cops based on what sounds like a justified use of force situation. So far, there aren't any red flags.

1

No-Acanthaceae-8809 t1_j30nxd2 wrote

>Maybe you should seek therapy for whatever trauma has caused you to get so emotional and irrationally worked

This is stupid. Its reddit comments. The only one who appears worked up here is you.

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Clinically-Inane t1_j315908 wrote

lmao that was a blatant fucking joke, you scrambled egg. The vexing void of silence told me I’m “an irrational person who likely needs therapy” and suggested the trauma of cops killing my cousin in an oopsie is why I have the beliefs I do (spoiler: I’m not, I do, and it’s not)

I promise that no matter how stupid you think I am it’s not halfway as cooked as you are kiddo

bro omg why are u so mad tho bro calm down it’s just Reddit and I’m worried about you bro

0

Clinically-Inane t1_j2z2n8y wrote

just so you’re aware: anyone can call the police on someone for any reason they feel like. A phone call being made to the police does not mean the person who made the call had good reason to do so

I am not saying whoever called 911 here shouldnt have done so or had no reason to because I don’t have any way of knowing that but people call the police over ridiculous things all the time, and their ridiculous claims aren’t validated just because they were “concerned enough’ to call and make them

1

vexingsilence t1_j2z419z wrote

>A phone call being made to the police does not mean the person who made the call had good reason to do so

Wow, so now not only are all cops bad, but now people who call 911 are bad too. Are you a criminal? Seems like criminals might be the only people you don't have a beef with.

A guy has a knife, someone calls 911, and you're questioning the cops and the caller. Do you think the guy with the knife might have been up to something? Is that even a possibility in your mind?

I'm sure someone handed this guy a knife and told him to act out a horror movie scene as they dashed off to call 911 so they could have the cops show up and kill him. That's obviously the most likely scenario here. </s>

1

Clinically-Inane t1_j2zbabd wrote

Yeah, a conspiracy is definitely what I’m assuming this is

Massive, federal level shit

Blow your mind, stg

1

NathanVfromPlus t1_j32i8g7 wrote

> Mental illness isn't curable by just talking to someone.

But momentary emotional distress absolutely is.

> Nothing like other people in this thread vilifying the cops for doing what they're trained to do.

I vilify the fact that they're trained to do this, too.

2

vexingsilence t1_j32ltq2 wrote

>"Mental illness isn't curable by just talking to someone."
>
>But momentary emotional distress absolutely is.

We don't have any details as to why the police used lethal force so it's difficult to accept this statement. If a person is wielding a knife in a threatening manner, that's not a situation where a social worker is magically going to defuse the situation. Is it possible? Sure. But depending on how the situation played out, this may not have been avoidable. If anything, we need to address these mental health issues before it gets to a situation like this. Perhaps attempts were made and failed, we'll have to wait and see as more information becomes available. But simply pointing fingers at the police and police procedures does not appear to warranted right now.

1

NathanVfromPlus t1_j32rv9k wrote

> If a person is wielding a knife in a threatening manner, that's not a situation where a social worker is magically going to defuse the situation.

Actually... yeah, it absolutely can be. Often, that's exactly what mental health crisis intervention looks like.

> Is it possible? Sure.

Not just possible, but also plausible, and more probable than a police officer doing the same.

> But depending on how the situation played out, this may not have been avoidable.

That's pretty defeatist. Sure, it's possible the death might have been unavoidable... but what if it was avoidable? We'll never know now.

> If anything, we need to address these mental health issues before it gets to a situation like this.

10,000% behind this.

> But simply pointing fingers at the police and police procedures does not appear to warranted right now.

If it's not warranted after the police kill a kid, then when is it warranted?

2

vexingsilence t1_j32w3op wrote

>If it's not warranted after the police kill a kid, then when is it warranted?

It's only warranted if they did something wrong. They're not at fault for the way our society deals with mental health. It escalated to the point where someone needed 911 and a police response, authorities told reporters that the individual was armed with a knife. So long as their procedures were carried out properly, there's nothing else to pursue. The AG will make that determination, and if not, it can be decided in the courts.

If you want to revamp the entire system, that's something that either needs to be done at the local level or by the state legislature. Cops responding to an emergency call aren't in a position to make those kind of changes, they have to follow their department's policies and procedures.

1

NathanVfromPlus t1_j331f7c wrote

> It's only warranted if they did something wrong.

Killing kids isn't wrong?

> They're not at fault for the way our society deals with mental health.

They're at fault for their role in the way our society deals with mental health.

> So long as their procedures were carried out properly, there's nothing else to pursue.

"I was just following orders, Sir."

> If you want to revamp the entire system

I'd love to do this. Yes, please.

> that's something that either needs to be done at the local level or by the state legislature.

Ideally, I'd like to work on that at every level, ranging from the individual level to the national level.

> Cops responding to an emergency call aren't in a position to make those kind of changes

They're in a position to change how they react to the situation. Drawing weapons was a personal choice, made by both officers.

> they have to follow their department's policies and procedures.

They really don't, though.

2

vexingsilence t1_j333pv5 wrote

17 years old is not a "kid". That's a young adult.

The police do not control the mental health system.

There is no federal role in this, it's up to the state and local authorities. The feds can provide assistance, but they have to leave this to the states to figure out. It is not in the fed's domain.

>They're in a position to change how they react to the situation. Drawing weapons was a personal choice, made by both officers.

Not based on what we know. A person menacing people with a knife is a deadly situation. The police must react if that person is threatening the life of another. We'll have to wait until more information is released, but so far there are no red flags. The police did what they're trained to do, and they're trained the way they are to protect us and the police that responded.

2

NathanVfromPlus t1_j33fr71 wrote

> 17 years old is not a "kid". That's a young adult.

Try telling that to the military.

> The police do not control the mental health system.

That doesn't mean they don't play a role in how society deals with mental health.

> Not based on what we know.

We know humans have free will.

> The police must react if that person is threatening the life of another.

False. Police have no legal obligation to endanger themselves for the protection of others.

> but so far there are no red flags.

Just newly red walls and carpeting.

1

Clinically-Inane t1_j30j2rh wrote

[https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2017-05-01/how-do-n-h-police-decide-to-shoot-or-not-shoot-when-facing-armed-ill-or-addicted-people]

This is a really interesting look at a lot of the questions we all have, but it also raises others that are pretty complicated

It has some interviews with police, and one of the examples actually used is a drunk man armed with a knife and mental health problems who was successfully talked down and convinced to drop it in the street while his kids and family were in the driveway. It’s hard to contrast that with Mischa’s death because the subtle differences may have changed the outcome (ie, they were outside and not in a confined space; it was broad daylight; the man had kids nearby) but it’s interesting to hear what a police officer has to say about a cops vs knife scene in NH

Some of the language is vague and could be better— “many” officers getting special deescalation training doesn’t tell us much, and they could have easily included the data on that. Regardless of how complex the topic at hand is and how contentious our conversation has been, I really think you’ll appreciate this piece

Notable: “The highest level of training teaches police that if their efforts to defuse a situation fail, they should shoot if they believe they themselves could be killed.”

1

_6zero3_ t1_j2xakse wrote

Child? Seriously?

0

Clinically-Inane t1_j2yl2br wrote

They were 17 years old. That’s a literal child, so what’s the problem?

1

_6zero3_ t1_j34s2k1 wrote

Yet you can get married at 16 and prosecuted as an adult at 17, so.....

2

Clinically-Inane t1_j352wrm wrote

You used to be able to get married at 12 in New Hampshire. Are 12 year olds adults now too?

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PossiblyCreepy605 t1_j2xbzlm wrote

It's a little disingenuous to call a 17 year old a child.

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Clinically-Inane t1_j2ykrn8 wrote

Really? Why’s that?

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PossiblyCreepy605 t1_j2yrbkn wrote

What do you picture when someone says a child?

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NathanVfromPlus t1_j32jgk3 wrote

Someone who isn't a grown-ass adult.

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PossiblyCreepy605 t1_j32y1e1 wrote

What's a grown ass adult?

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NathanVfromPlus t1_j331p4o wrote

Username checks out unnervingly well.

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PossiblyCreepy605 t1_j335ft0 wrote

Fantastic answer to my question

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NathanVfromPlus t1_j337giu wrote

I shouldn't have to answer it. If you don't know the difference between a child and a grown-ass adult, then you probably shouldn't be allowed around children.

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Clinically-Inane t1_j2ywpdb wrote

Nothing; I can’t “picture” things. I’d hear the word “child” and know it meant someone who is under 18, aka Not An Adult By Definition because words have meanings

19 and 20 year olds haven’t actually emotionally or mentally grown into adulthood though, even if they have adult lives at that point; the human brain isn’t finished developing until our mid 20s, but we still arbitrarily consider anyone over 18 an adult even though that’s not very fair

If you’re not working with a fully matured adult brain capable of adult rationale, instincts, and impulse control, you can’t reasonably be expected to actually be a fully matured adult— but that’s what we expect anyway (even though ALL of the science tells us human brains are not Adult until ~7 years after age 18)

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PossiblyCreepy605 t1_j2z5e66 wrote

>Nothing; I can’t “picture” things. I’d hear the word “child” and know it meant someone who is under 18,

Oh come on now. You're clearly being disingenuous and you aren't even trying to hide it. Stop that.

If you ask anyone not trying to be obtuse for fake Internet points, they would answer probably a boy or girl under the age of 10. Preteens are between 11-13, teenagers 14-17 give or take a year. Using that basic common sense, you hear some person online screeching about police killing a child, their thought immediately goes to someone under 10. Not a 17 year old who is capable of serving in a literal combat role in the military and has the size and strength to physically harm members of our community.

You are purposely trying to mislead people by using emotionally charged language that doesn't paint an accurate picture. And you know it.

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Clinically-Inane t1_j2zat4f wrote

“Emotionally charged language that doesn’t paint an accurate picture” 🤌

When someone mentions “an adult” to you, what do you picture? If it’s teenagers that’s really messed up for a lot of reasons and you should do some reflecting on that. My language there was factual and accurate; a 17yo is a child, a child is who died in this situation, and I hope you’re having a good time huffing tonight because whewww you’re on fire. What’s up next? Are we mad that teenagers get to go to Children’s Hospitals because that’s emotionally charged and inaccurate language to be using? Does it mislead and make people think of only babies with cancer?

I have a 16yo. You know what EVERYBODY around us calls them? A kid or child. Schools, doctors, family, job— literally everybody calls my 16yo a kid/child, so I’m confident my language reflects an accurate picture where children are not adults

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PossiblyCreepy605 t1_j2zflh3 wrote

Wow you're really doubling down on that emotionally charged language, and reeeeeeally leaning into strawmans.

I understand it's difficult for some to understand how loaded language can be used to subconsciously imply bias or propaganda for various purposes.

Let's try this: These two statements are factually the same event but give two different views of an event:

>4 children slaughtered in streets after school by illegal assault rifles

>4 gang members dead following release from prison for rape and sex tracking, get into shootout over drug dealing territory one evening.

I know you "can't picture" things, but do these resonate differently with you?

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Clinically-Inane t1_j2zmtk3 wrote

I understand plenty about how seriously language can affect perception, and you’re in the wrong place if you think I give any fucks about your insults to my intelligence. “This is all sooooooo emotionally charged, please fetch my fainting couch! I simply CAHNT GO ON, it’s TOO MUCH EMOTION and I cahnt even think straight!” 😪

~Words have meanings

~”Child” has a simple meaning

~The technical and typical usage means “not an adult” and/or “under 18”

Good night

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PossiblyCreepy605 t1_j2zv4jj wrote

>I understand plenty

Judging your very angry response and refusal to answer my question, I sincerely doubt this. Good night!

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checdc t1_j2wzebg wrote

Why don't you give cops the benefit of the doubt since 99.9% of the time they are justified. Why assume they did something wrong here? Statistics don't back up this reaction

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[deleted] t1_j2x1cir wrote

[deleted]

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checdc t1_j2xrzwx wrote

FBI crime statistics go look them up. There are litterally millions of police interactions a year. Yes some end tragically that doesn't mean it's the cops fault and until there is a video showing wrong doing I'll give those who serve in a thankless job the benefit of the doubt. I am in fact unbias. You though clearly have a bias hate of police which is sad for you.

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[deleted] t1_j2ysmtf wrote

[deleted]

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checdc t1_j2zaiku wrote

1055 people were killed by police in 2021. Only 21 officers faced charges. Aka someone feeling like it wasn't justified. That's 1.9% but that's a little flawed because in the case of unjustified shootings many times it's multiple officers facing charges for 1 shooting which would make that an even smaller %. With that said only 1/3rd of officers who are charged are found guilty of an unjustified shooting which means at best 0.6. So I guess I was off by a little bit it's 99.3% ish are justified sry lol

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[deleted] t1_j2zdmhx wrote

[deleted]

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checdc t1_j2ziw3p wrote

Maybe 10 years ago but not today. Today cops are under a fine microscope. Some would say people like yourself have an unrealistic expectation of their fellow humans. No cop goes to work wanting to end another humans life. I can't imagine the pressure of going to work a thankless job where a mistake in the most adrenaline fueled situation could land me in prison for 20 years. Imagine being 1 year from retirement. Following all your department training and still getting thrown in jail for something someone who wasn't even their thinks you did wrong. All I'm saying is let the facts come out before you condemn those who put it on the line every day.

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Clinically-Inane t1_j30nkw2 wrote

Thank you for that last couple sentences; it’s what I’ve been trying to explain all night, but what you just said is the concise bottom line

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checdc t1_j2z6el1 wrote

Lol my karma rating is the way it is because I challenge people on their bs. You are a cop hater simple as that. I'm not licking anyone's boots. I'm saying that 99.9% of police shootings are justified but even if that number was 90 or 80 it baffles me how people like you just assume the cop did something wrong. I can provide you links but I find it much more educational when people like yourself go look up answers on your own. If I provide you a source your learn nothing. If you genuinely want to educate yourself I'm happy to help you though.

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2020Engineer t1_j2xvy5v wrote

Statistics might be a good starting point but they are one dimensional (justifiable murder or not) and are bias (who determines that). There are circumstances where it's justified but it sure as shit isn't 99.9%. People's are upset because cops killed a kid during a situation which at a glance does not appear to be life or death.

Cops are human. They have bias, corrupted motives, adrenaline, fear, poor training, etc. No one wants to see someone in jail for an accident on the job. Mixed feeling on how it should be handled or prevented.

None the less someone's kid is dead.
To write is off as justified because it's a cop is bull shit.

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vexingsilence t1_j2zd61j wrote

>People's are upset because cops killed a kid during a situation which at a glance does not appear to be life or death.

Based on what?

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2020Engineer t1_j30fcy9 wrote

A glance... A headline and periodical. No real details.

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checdc t1_j2xxa04 wrote

I would say at a Glace doesn't matter. The life and death determination is made by the person or officer who pulled the trigger. Sometime tough choices have to be made. I garentee that officer is far more upset about it then anyone on this sub. No one wants to be in that situation and those that end up there live with it forever.

You can disagree with facts all you want but the stats on shootings and police interactions being justified vs not being justified is 99.9% sry if you don't agree. Even the most manipulated stats are in the 90s if you don't agree look them up.

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vexingsilence t1_j2x187x wrote

Lots of ACAB'ers here. Like you said, it's more likely the cops acted to defend themselves and protect the lives of others. If less lethal options didn't work or weren't practical given the situation, they did what they had to do. But many/most want to jump to the less likely scenario.

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checdc t1_j2xtcjg wrote

Exactly and you can tell just how delusional the people on this subredit are by the down votes a sensable comment recieves. It's so sad

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Clinically-Inane t1_j2u5irx wrote

This seems like a very good time to remind everyone reading this that calling the cops on someone suffering from serious mental illness— or even minor mental illness— sometimes directly leads to their death

Don’t involve the people who run in with guns and spray places and people with bullets unless you need and expect someone to possibly spray bullets all over the damn place

If it’s a serious enough situation that the benefit of police intervention outweighs the risk the person who needs help will get hurt or killed, feel free to call the cops. Unfortunately that should be the equation we all do before we dial that number; cops are not adult Boy Scouts like they try to teach us when we’re kids, and weighing the risk vs benefit before involving them in anything is necessary for communities who truly want to look out for each other

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the_nobodys t1_j2udqo3 wrote

We call the cops at work to issue trespass orders, and once for a drunken fight where it seemed a woman had gotten knocked out. They almost always show up after the fact, and just do paperwork and leave, which is good. I can't imagine calling them for deescalation, especially in place where there aren't a lot of eyes to witness what happens.

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2020Engineer t1_j2z72yy wrote

Yup. Sometimes there is no choice like a medical emergency when you need to call an ambulance. Then the cops tag along to take advantage of the situation and start roughing people up / making up charges.

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