notsocoolnow t1_iugjstv wrote
Reply to comment by PigTenis in Richard Branson declines invitation to debate death penalty with Shanmugam, says TV format 'turns serious debate into spectacle' by chronoistriggered
Singaporean here: it is not helped that Shanmugam, the politician in question, is a very experienced lawyer and one of the best debaters in Singapore politics. It's not immediately apparent watching his speeches, but in parliament he's extremely quick-thinking and processes information very quickly on the spot.
The scope of the debate would also have been highly disadvantageous to Branson, since Branson is a British entrepreneur used to dealing with an international environment, while the debate was on Singapore's laws which Shanmugam, being the friggin' Minister of Law, would have infinitely more experience with, not to mention having better familiarity with the Singapore government's internal statistics and social environment. Shanmugam would have been able to pull statistics, studies, and facts idiosyncratic to Singapore which Branson would have been hard pressed to refute in a live debate - because he'd need time to look up those studies and verify those statistics. And to top it all off I suspect the debate would have been moderated by a Singaporean, guiding the arguments in a seemingly-neutral fashion towards the local context ("keeping the discussion on-topic") where Shanmugam would have the overwhelming advantage.
The trump card Shanmugam always held is that a majority of Singaporeans approve of our drug laws (70% of Singaporeans are Chinese, and there is a very very very strong hatred of drugs in Chinese culture), so no matter what, he can always fall back on democratic mandate as the core of his argument.
This is like if Mike Tyson asked some random to settle their disagreement in a boxing match held in Tyson's favorite gym. The offer was highly one-sided, feels very disingenuous, and the Singapore government would spin it as a victory regardless of whether Branson accepted, refused, won or lost. There is no good outcome to Branson agreeing to the debate.
But I also think Shanmugam was doing it to raise Singapore's public profile. You'd be surprised how many stinking rich international finance-types approve of our anti-drug policies. Frat-boy multimillionaires who demand absolute sobriety from their employees while snorting lines of cocaine in their private jets.
FYI I highly disapprove of the death penalty for drug offenses, especially the specific way in which my country enforces it which utterly breaks the fundamental innocent-until-proven-guilty principle of justice.
DevelopmentAny543 t1_iuh3b3z wrote
Most logical thing I’ve ever read from a fellow Singaporean. Good on you. Most NUS grads I’ve met have the critical thinking ability of a merlion
aktivate74 t1_iuhh7fi wrote
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How many is "most"?
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How does a merlion think ?
megalon43 t1_iugn44e wrote
Agreed. Did you see the paragraph 17 in the MHA statement though? It’s actually a fucking use of whataboutism with a bit of wolf warrior flavour. It’s fucking cringey.
another-masked-hero t1_iugnyww wrote
I’m so confused by this whole document, is it common in Singapore to publish this? It looks at the beginning like it’s meant to be a demonstration but in fact there are logical fallacies and absence of proofs.
notsocoolnow t1_iugqd5b wrote
It happens quite a bit. The release is targeted at Singaporean readers, so there's a lot of political dogwhistles that would make no sense to a foreigner but trigger emotional responses in locals.
In the Singapore subreddit we post these and pick them apart all the time, and this isn't even the first press release for this specific event. To be fair, the recent high-profile drug execution has attracted unusually high attention to our draconian drug laws.
another-masked-hero t1_iugqyqe wrote
Thank you, well to give credit to your system it’s great that these documents get published. Though in this particular case it seems silly to respond to a random jet setter. But presenting the reasoning in such detail is a great approach in general and if it were not so full of fallacies I would really enjoy reading these.
megalon43 t1_iugpfsy wrote
Singapore used to be really clean and professional with stuff like this, but we have really gone full clown over the past decade.
Edit: adding on, Richard Branson is just a random posh fuck, not a U.K. official. I seriously don’t see the whole point of the whataboutisms attacking the U.K.
another-masked-hero t1_iugqq5t wrote
If done properly (i.e. correctly argumented) I think this would be awesome.
But it seems very flawed. This could be my ignorance but paragraphs 13-17 are logically flawed or suspicious (for example paragraph 12-13: accusation that there are biased in the system, then contradicting “proof” Is that the system itself cleared itself of wrongdoings). I then stopped reading because it seemed like a waste of time.
notsocoolnow t1_iugq3qp wrote
Course I did. Like China's version of wolf-warrior diplomacy, it's for domestic, not foreign consumption.
The Opium War reference is entirely expected, because you see in my post where I mentioned the Chinese cultural hatred of drugs? It's because of the Opium War. For any non-Singaporeans reading this, drugs are a symbol of colonial oppression and capitalist evil. Younger Singaporeans aren't quite as crazy about this, but the PAP's core voter base, senior citizens, were heavily indoctrinated into hating drugs due to their grandparents ranting about the evils of the Opium War.
To be fair, it's not an unjustified sentiment. But it's become a dogwhistle for Chinese conservatives whenever Britain (and for that matter, any of the 8 nations - Germany, Japan, Russia, Britain, France, the United States, Italy, and Austria-Hungary, who conquered China so that Britain could continue to sell opium) tries to support drug legalization or for that matter any kind of humanitarian movement, as if a country's citizens are to blame for the sins of its past forever.
Scores of angry Chinese grandparents will read that and cheer for no reason other than the image of our "scrappy" government standing up to the big bad West.
Exotic-Amphibian-655 t1_iuhkoe0 wrote
Their source for the guy not being mentally incompetent is “facts of the case.” It’s made to look like a legal document but would be laughed out of court if filed by anyone other than a former president.
flaker111 t1_iugva5l wrote
as a side note i wish we (USA) could model some of the housing + healthcare policies Singapore has
notsocoolnow t1_iuh33qu wrote
I complain endlessly about some of our social policies, but even I admit our housing governance is amazing by the standards of any first-world city. Though COVID has recently screwed up the construction schedule and prices are skyrocketing.
megalon43 t1_iuh1etw wrote
Yeah I think we got one of the best housing policies in the world. Healthcare wise, I’m a bit torn. It can still get expensive.
We’d probably do better if we were lesser on the “Asian values” moralising though. Like how alcohol sales are banned after 10pm, etc.
[deleted] t1_iuhws4t wrote
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[deleted] t1_iuiboa3 wrote
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BeKind_BeTheChange t1_iuhtffe wrote
But it's such an incredibly easy debate to win. There is no real position to support the death penalty until we can prove 100% that no innocent person will ever be put to death. Right now we know for a fact that innocent people have been killed.
The concept of killing people over drugs is psychotic. Anybody who supports that is a murderous sociopath.
End of debate.
aktivate74 t1_iuhh1k0 wrote
> The trump card Shanmugam always held is that a majority of Singaporeans approve of our drug laws (70% of Singaporeans are Chinese, and there is a very very very strong hatred of drugs in Chinese culture)
No idea where you are going with this Chinese inference. This death penalty isn't exclusive to Chinese majority Singapore. Being from Singapore you should know your neighbouring Malaysia and Indonesia as well as Thailand have death penalties for drug offences and last I checked their majority aren't Chinese.
CrappyMSPaintPics t1_iuhc8an wrote
> and there is a very very very strong hatred of drugs in Chinese culture
Other than alcohol of course.
icalledthecowshome t1_iuhfqin wrote
In addition to the frat boy expat mm club, the C D suites of chinese public corps competes with them for alcohol, drug & sex rock n roll habits.
Lets talk about the amount of beautiful working women in SG ;)
ConcreteState t1_iuhipx2 wrote
It's easy for Americans like me to forget the recent history of drugs in China being used to topple a government.
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