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HanaBothWays t1_j105q2t wrote

Reply to comment by PatrickBearman in Mother facing charges after allegedly cyberbullying her own daughter by Hour_Doughnut2155

This is, like, the worst and most cringe argument you can make for reproductive rights.

The real problem here is the mindset that a parent essentially owns their child and can do whatever to them.

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PatrickBearman t1_j108ext wrote

>This is, like, the worst and most cringe argument you can make for reproductive rights. >

I believe that people who don't want to have children should have abortion as an option to ensure that they don't have children, rather than having a child that they didn't want (or want yet) thrust upon them. How is exactly is that the "worst and most cringe argument?"

Unwanted children, poverty, and mental health issues are all linked to abuse. While none of these things guarantee that abuse occurs, they all increase the likelihood that it occurs.

>The real problem here is the mindset that a parent essentially owns their child and can do whatever to them.

That is a problem, yes, but in life there is rarely one singular problem. Abortion access is part of the problem.

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HanaBothWays t1_j109pca wrote

> I believe that people who don’t want to have children should have abortion as an option to ensure that they don’t have children, rather than having a child that they didn’t want (or want yet) thrust upon them.

What makes you think the woman in this article didn’t want to have children?

Plenty of people who abuse their kids wanted to have those kids.

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PatrickBearman t1_j10ezyl wrote

>What makes you think the woman in this article didn’t want to have children? >

I literally said "Not saying that was the case here..." because I don't know if this woman was forced into pregnancy. My point was that there are situations like this which could have been avoided if everyone had abortion access.

>Plenty of people who abuse their kids wanted to have those kids.

I understand this, which I demonstrated by stating:

Unwanted children, poverty, and mental health issues are all linked to abuse. While none of these things guarantee that abuse occurs, they all increase the likelihood that it occurs.

I never disputed the fact that willing parents are abusive. My original comment was to expound on, not refute, the idea that too many assholes have children. If you take my comments within context, the only possible read is a) assholes can be abusive parents and b) people can have unwanted children thrust upon them, increasing the likelihood of an abusive environment.

This is what you're doing.

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HanaBothWays t1_j10n1gu wrote

So, you just wanted to shoehorn something about abortion into a totally unrelated discussion, and I’m the problem.

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ElegantLandscape t1_j10vgz3 wrote

Yes actually you are.

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HanaBothWays t1_j10w4oo wrote

Gee, maybe my mother aborting me would have solved me according to you.

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ElegantLandscape t1_j10x5vq wrote

Wow, way to jump the shark, your inability to see nuance during an online discussion is not indicative of you needing to be solved by being dead, but jump to hyperbolic comments for fun I guess?

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HanaBothWays t1_j10xb9t wrote

> Wow, way to jump the shark, your inability to see nuance during an online discussion is not indicative of you needing to be solved by being dead, but jump to hyperbolic comments for fun I guess?

Can’t see what isn’t there!

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PatrickBearman t1_j110c8z wrote

You're the "problem" in that you're deliberately misinterpreting my comments because you're angry that I mentioned abortion. You're extremely argumentative for no apparent reason, so I'm guessing that you either disagree with abortion or you have some experience with abuse. I commiserate if it's the latter. The potential of someone responding like you did is why I specifically included the caveat in the original comment.

The neat thing about systemic issues is that they aren't simple, so discussions about specific events can often lead to discussions other, related issues. Child abuse can and does happen in all walks of life, but there's also specific situations in which this behavior is more likely to happen. It's easy enough to say "this woman is an asshole," but that doesn't do much in terms of addressing the issue. My goal in mentioning abortion (other than it being a topical issue) was to highlight a potential cause to this type of situation that maybe some people wouldn't think of.

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HanaBothWays t1_j111d8e wrote

Dude, I hear the argument “abortion would prevent children from being born to abusive/unfit parents” all the time, it is not something novel. Hundreds of people say this every day! It is a stock argument for abortion rights and not a good one!

It is also gross to bring up because the idea that abortion is a way to solve the problem of “unfit parents” has its roots in eugenicist thinking. And “forcing people who might be unfit parents to get abortions or be sterilized” is not just some theoretical thing, this country was doing it officially through the 70s and unofficially through the 80s or 90s.

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PatrickBearman t1_j1457ha wrote

>Dude, I hear the argument “abortion would prevent children from being born to abusive/unfit parents” all the time, it is not something novel. Hundreds of people say this every day! It is a stock argument for abortion rights and not a good one! >

Well if you've seen it then I suppose everyone else has. Next time I'm considering discussing something I'll make sure to dm you to avoid wasting time posting something that everyone has seen.

>It is also gross to bring up because the idea that abortion is a way to solve the problem of “unfit parents” has its roots in eugenicist thinking. And “forcing people who might be unfit parents to get abortions or be sterilized” is not just some theoretical thing, this country was doing it officially through the 70s and unofficially through the 80s or 90s.

I'm aware. I'm also aware that you're grasping at straws trying to connect my comments to forced abortion. It's almost like you had a knee jerk reaction to something and decided to double down with extreme hyperbole. I never once presented abortion as a solution to "unfit parents." In fact, I said quite the opposite. I'm aware of the history of forced sterilization.

You're the one viewing this as a binary issue. Meanwhile, I outright stated that this is a complex issue and openly agreed with you multiple times. My comments simple mentioned one part of the issue. But hey, why read what someone writes when you can be an arrogant, condescending asshole who makes up arguments for someone who is clearly sympathic to your cause.

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HanaBothWays t1_j149hyt wrote

> Well if you’ve seen it then I suppose everyone else has.

Unironically yes.

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PatrickBearman t1_j14z4ac wrote

It's not everyday someone enthusiasticly perpetuates the "smug lib" stereotype, but I'll be damned if you aren't trying your best.

Good luck with making up shit to be aggressively angry over.

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[deleted] t1_j10ftp3 wrote

[deleted]

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HanaBothWays t1_j10mxl1 wrote

No. Some people can’t handle it when their kids aren’t perfectly compliant. Other people can’t deal with their issues in a healthy way and take it out on people close to them.

Not everyone is as fortunate as you are and some people have to deal with horrible things.

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Swagaru t1_j10kg3i wrote

They’re saying you’d avoid parents like that lady because the would be parents now have the option to not birth a child.

Idk how that’s difficult to understand.

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HanaBothWays t1_j10mgod wrote

How do you know she did not want to give birth to her daughter?

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Swagaru t1_j10n2sn wrote

Probably the fact that she’s now bullying her daughter online anonymously?

I guarantee most parents who initially want children aren’t going to do some twisted and sick shit like that.

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HanaBothWays t1_j10osfw wrote

How do you know? Are you a therapist who treats abused children? Do you study abusive parents? Do you know the factors that lead to child abuse or interpersonal abuse within families? Do you or anyone close to you have any personal experience with emotional abuse within the family? Are you familiar with the behavior patterns of narcissistic parents?

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Swagaru t1_j10p0rq wrote

What’s your point here? What are you even arguing lol?

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HanaBothWays t1_j10pfwu wrote

“Abortion rights would stop child abuse!” is a stupid reductive argument based on a false premise.

Also you don’t understand the dynamics of abuse, which I guess means you are a very fortunate person.

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ElegantLandscape t1_j10vr0m wrote

Abortion lowers crime rates due to less abused and traumatized people becoming criminals. So yeah kinda, what is even your goal with your replies?

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HanaBothWays t1_j10w2pb wrote

Crime rates went down because we took lead out of gasoline and stopped damaging developing brains.

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ElegantLandscape t1_j10wtom wrote

That is a theory but another great theory with a nice amount of statistical research and support is the 1.5 million abortions at the height of legalization. Here is a podcast talking to researchers and a transcript. https://freakonomics.com/podcast/abortion-and-crime-revisited/

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HanaBothWays t1_j10xgw8 wrote

That’s nice what does it have to do with child abuse

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ElegantLandscape t1_j10xrj4 wrote

So you didn't read the transcript about the research and who was choosing abortion and why?

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HanaBothWays t1_j10yfik wrote

Why someone chooses to have an abortion is not my business!

Also you still don’t know whether the lady in this article abused her daughter because she was an unwanted child. You have no basis for that. Plenty of people choose to have kids and then treat those kids horribly. People abusing their kids is not a soapbox for you or anyone else to make a pro-abortion argument. Neither is poverty or crime or any other societal ill - other than people being denied their right to have an abortion if they want/need one.

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ElegantLandscape t1_j10z7p1 wrote

Actually, all of those reasons are GREAT arguments to use for pro choice! Use all the arguments that imply making a child and adults life better. You don't get reproductive rights in a vacuum, you get them by convincing every single person in every way possible that they are good for the child, the individual, and society. Sorry you are so salty about this but we should use every tool in the toolbox. Also no one linked this mom to abortion directly, they even couched that in the original comment. Stay mad.

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HanaBothWays t1_j10zh7n wrote

> Actually, all of those reasons are GREAT arguments to use for pro choice! Use all the arguments that imply making a child and adults life better.

Actually it implies that you think forced abortions as part of a eugenics program might be a neat idea which is why it’s awful.

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ElegantLandscape t1_j111y9f wrote

No it doesn't lol, no where did we say force or imply it. Have an abortion for literally any reason you want as long as it's your choice.

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HanaBothWays t1_j112cs1 wrote

I mean when you see a story like this and your first thought is “timely and well-placed abortions prevent things like this!” yes actually that implies it pretty strongly.

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dancefan2019 t1_j10ta1q wrote

I'll step in here as a Licensed Social Worker who works with families that are abusive, and have studied in college the dynamics of abuse. Plenty of people who do want children and purposely conceived have gone on to abuse their children, often because they are repeating abusive patterns that were learned in their own childhood, or because of their own psychological issues, or because they feel entitled to do what they want with their children out of a sense of ownership or entitlement. There may be some who abuse because the child was not wanted in the first place, but abuse mainly occurs because that abusive pattern was learned in childhood.

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AStartIsBorn t1_j12q5s6 wrote

I have to agree with you. Even now in the 21st century, a lot of "parents" have the mindset that children are property, not human beings. It's almost like chattel slavery, and the fact that so many people these days fail to see this is a huge problem is very disturbing.

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