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Ceratisa t1_j5glhuc wrote

Didn't Poland say something like

We'll do it without permission.

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jayfeather31 t1_j5gnvtl wrote

Poland and Russia really don't like each other, so that's not surprising.

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Zombie_Harambe t1_j5j08ep wrote

Polands entire history is basically being fucked by Russia, Prussia, or both.

The American flag is red for liberty, white for freedom, and blue for justice.

The polish flag is red for the blood of Russians they plan to kill. White for the bones of Russians they plan to kill.

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rain168 t1_j5j1de9 wrote

T - is for the way you Take my breath away

I - is for the way I like it when you take my breath away

N - is for No one else takes my breath away, and...

A - is for Asthma that is a disease that takes people's breath away!

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[deleted] t1_j5i16m0 wrote

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Bladye t1_j5iyk7n wrote

Ukraine confirmed that they started training their soldiers in Poland on Leopards

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Charr03 t1_j5jg8j2 wrote

If I understand it correctly, they only started after the German minister of defense recommended them to do that.

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and_dont_blink t1_j5klbsq wrote

>The simple truth is that Poland hasn't even asked for export permissions yet,

Because Germany has been extremely clear it wouldn't give permission. It even started a whole program where member countries could send older Soviet tanks in exchange for German tanks, but would not allow German tanks into Ukraine. This only started after public pressure to send tanks couldn't be ignored.

This fell apart when Germany wasn't following through, and Poland finally said they'd setup a coalition of willing partners to send in tanks, get Ukraine training and the supplies and repairs/maintenance they would need. The USA said they'd send Abrams tanks to countries that sent their leopards, because Germany is unwilling and unable. This isn't ideal as the continent and Ukraine are not setup for leopards, but Germany isn't giving a lot of choice and many, many Ukranians will die without them.

> and Germany has repeatedly stated that would give permission..

This isn't true funwithtentacles. Please provide some links that aren't from the last day or so? You won't be able to, because Germany has been extremely clear they wouldn't allow it.

I don't understand the German attempts to blatantly lie and rewrite history about these things, as history is not going to be any kinder to their role in this unless there are serioys changes.

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MusicURlooking4 t1_j5i4ris wrote

> We'll do it without permission.

What you have to understand is our country is being ruled at the moment by the cynical and dishonest populists, they are as anti-German as they are anti-Russian and their goal is to make Germany look bad first and to send the tanks second.

We have this saying here in Poland, "to cook two pieces of meat on a single fire" and that's what they are trying to do now, sadly it is the innocent Ukrainians who are paying with their lives for this disgusting political games ;_;

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Ceratisa t1_j5iadgo wrote

We have a similar idiom in English. "To kill two birds with one stone." I agree fully though, it's a true shame when politicking gets in the way of actual good.

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PenguinSunday t1_j5ioi6n wrote

Why do they require permission? Is Poland beholden to Germany?

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Stitch0815 t1_j5iqaba wrote

When buying arms from germany the contract states you need permission from the German goverment to resell or give them away.

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PenguinSunday t1_j5iqhae wrote

Thank you for explaining :)

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Pixel_CCOWaDN t1_j5k5bd9 wrote

BTW this is not really exclusive to Germany. Almost all countries will require you to get their permission before you re-export their weapons.

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Lor360 t1_j5hhjhd wrote

Ukraine getting new tanks, meanwhile, Russia is spending the last of its missile supply on performative strikes for internal propaganda

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8K2Wi1asr0

I don't know what they think they will hit those tanks with when they arrive.

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NecromanticSolution t1_j5jhncl wrote

Poland says a lot. Mostly it's grandstanding.

If they do it without permission the sole reason for that is, they did not ask.

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quietthomas t1_j5ma1p8 wrote

German is on the wrong side of Poland (geographically) to be blocking things.

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macross1984 t1_j5gwbmd wrote

Hope Poland will follow through and ship their batch of Leopard tank to Ukraine soon.

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Brave_Conflict465 OP t1_j5h1hq9 wrote

They were likely to follow through even if they didn't get the green light from Germany. They are happy to do anything they can to hamstring the Russian invasion, and put themselves in position to receive newer, more advanced equipment in the process.

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leywok t1_j5h2it2 wrote

They already signed contracts to purchase and build Korean tanks; so they can dump the Leopards .

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Brave_Conflict465 OP t1_j5h3ea0 wrote

And M1A1 Abrams https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/01/04/poland-signs-deal-to-buy-2nd-batch-of-us-abrams-tanks/

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leywok t1_j5h4ccf wrote

To friends in need you just say “how much and how fast do you need it” not, “fill out a request in triplicate, I’ll check stock and let you know after the war. “ The Germans are anal about records and record keeping.

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Mothrahlurker t1_j5hyiga wrote

>“how much and how fast do you need it” not, “fill out a request in triplicate, I’ll check stock and let you know after the war. “

Because that is a very fair representation of not even submitting any export request at all, not even contacting the relevant authority.

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BoringBob84 t1_j5hloqd wrote

I think that the Germans are very justified in being careful about getting involved in war.

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leywok t1_j5hnsbd wrote

Some countries, Germany foremost, France and even the US are playing the game so that Ukraine doesn’t win nor Russia, basically another Donbas wall. In all the statements “ we’re with Ukraine till the end” NOTHING is mentioned. ‘We’re with Ukraine till they win”. That’s a big difference, mostly Ukrainian deaths. The US’ (I’m a US citizen) main goal is to ruin Russia’s capacity to wage war for 20-40 years to come. If I was Ukraine I would not waste precious lives on moonscape territory but focus on Crimea. Poland will have almost 800 new tanks plus the surplus currently. You couple the M1s and the Korean tanks with A-10s (again US surplus) and Ukraine will be safe without Germany’s umbrella (or full NATO protection). Germany can go back on building BMWs and not pay their 2% share (not expected to happen till at least 2024).

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Limp_Agency161 t1_j5jd6c8 wrote

Lord another dumbfuck American thinking they know how the world works while unironically giving war advice to the Ukrainians.

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leywok t1_j5jgcxf wrote

These “dumb fucks” are paying for everything we’re gleefully sending to Ukraine. I’m giving advice to other dumb fucks on Reddit not Ukraine.

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Mothrahlurker t1_j5hykde wrote

>They were likely to follow through even if they didn't get the green light from Germany.

That was just political posturing.

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spaceman757 t1_j5h8ehg wrote

> They are happy to do anything they can to hamstring the Russian invasion, and put themselves in position to receive newer, more advanced equipment in the process.

In addition to that, we (I'm an expat living in Poland) have a ton of Ukrainian refugees here that would love to be able to go home and start to get some normalcy back in their lives.

This would help them to be able to accomplish that and would also take a large burden off of the Polish systems.

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Brave_Conflict465 OP t1_j5h9xe6 wrote

Absolutely, Poland has taken on a great deal of the humanitarian aid needed with so many being forced from their homes. I certainly didn't mean to make it sound as though this decision was entirely self serving, just that it makes good sense.

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spaceman757 t1_j5ipdee wrote

No worries. I didn't take it that way, even though that's likely a big part of the decision to do so.

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[deleted] t1_j5h91hh wrote

[deleted]

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Brave_Conflict465 OP t1_j5hemwc wrote

A much easier road if Germany chooses to make them available. My understanding is that most of the other countries that have expressed a willingness to send Leopards, would likely be able to provide munitions, and spare parts also. Not an endless supply, but enough to get the ball rolling anyway.

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[deleted] t1_j5i1o2b wrote

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macross1984 t1_j5i4hw2 wrote

If what you say is the fact then a lot of information is left out from media as most people outside of Germany lack information you have.

- not one single country has actually asked Germany for permission to export LEO2s to Ukraine.

This one I have seen from several comments but none of them provided source or link. If you have it please provide as it would help your point of view.

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Sage_Nein t1_j5izly2 wrote

>- not one single country has actually asked Germany for permission to export LEO2s to Ukraine.

For weeks now, the German government has been asked at the federal press conference, if such a request had been filed. Last friday, the speaker again reiterated "I have no information about an official request" - here is the relevant part of the press conference, in German though.

Some other points from that press conference:

  • The German government never linked Leopard deliveries to US tank deliveries.
  • There were no informal talks about tanks between Poland and Germany - which would usually happen before a request.
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macross1984 t1_j5izznl wrote

Thank you for providing details that I was not aware.

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and_dont_blink t1_j5kmk83 wrote

This isn't really genuine, it was PR. Poland and the USA have been asking for armor and tanks sincr the start of the war, which Germany denied. They eventually capitulated and said "ok instead of German tanks, send older Soviet stock and we will reimburse you with German tanks, but none will go to Ukraine." They didn't follow through.

Then when Poland and the USA and others (the USA and dutch split the costs to send 90 refurbed tanks, etc) pushed the issue Germany starts acting like it was all a misunderstanding because some paperwork wasn't filed. It's egregious and transparent, it would be like your bank manager telling you they coukdnt possibly gove you a loan, then when asked by the media saying they hadn't actually applied for the loan. Germany was clear publicly and again, even setup an entire program to avoid it.

When the European parliament told them to send the heavy armor, and France, they told the press it was the first they'd heard of it. LoL

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and_dont_blink t1_j5klq5m wrote

>Germany has repeatedly said they would give permission, Poland just hasn't actually bothered to ask for permission yet...

No, they haven't funwithtentacles. They've said the exact opposite. Please provide one link that isn't from the last day or so where Germany has said it is OK with anyone sending German tanks into Ukraine. One link. It should be easy, except you won't be able to because it is a lie.

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[deleted] t1_j5mt4un wrote

[removed]

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and_dont_blink t1_j5mu2yo wrote

...there's nothing to turn around, and you're being disingenuous funwithtentacles. Germany was incredibly clear going back to April of 2022 it wouldn't allow German heavy armor to be used in Ukraine.

This whole "well they never actually sent a written request" is broken thinking when there were talks private and public leading to Germany coming up with the plan to agree to backstop those who only sent soviet era armor because they wouldn't allow German armor. To anyone paying actual attention what you're saying is just nonsense.

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ImJ2001 t1_j5gnwuu wrote

Time to send those formal request letters.

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Commander_Meh t1_j5htsp3 wrote

Bro anyone else look and think that was a snow speeder from empire strikes back? Like, if Poland is sending snowspeeders, then Russia doesn’t have a chance

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LeDouchekins t1_j5iri2l wrote

Why does Poland need Germany to give permission?

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Teantis t1_j5j35pw wrote

Most countries that produce state of the art arms when you buy modern weapons systems require you to ask permission before you resell them. For security concerns, protection of tech etc etc. Hell the US was making a fuss about turkiye even buying SAM systems from Russia and booted them from the F-35 program for that, and is actually thinking about blocking even f-16 sales to turkiye.

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OregonIT t1_j5jyugw wrote

f16 is due to nato/and the greek /turkey war iirc?

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Caos1980 t1_j5h35fu wrote

And … if they sell them ?

Will Germany allow it ?

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Sinarai25 t1_j5k7ta8 wrote

As someone who doesn't know how all this works... how can Germany even block Poland from giving tanks? I understand they're both in the EU and NATO, but, yeah. How does that work?

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Kevioli t1_j5kdyuv wrote

Most countries building high-tech arms include a condition in the contracts stating that the buyer must ask for permission before reselling the products. It’s to keep potential enemies away from said technology

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razkachar t1_j5gwct7 wrote

How gracious of Germany

magnanimous

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FestiveSquid t1_j5hr0uk wrote

"I'm gonna stick up my hand and say that was uncool, bro. Sorry."

"How fucking magnanimous! May I offer you my applause? YOU FUCKING MOTHERFUCKER!"

​

Damn. Guess nobody knows what I'm referencing.

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