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George4Mayor86 t1_j9uc0z7 wrote

Oh for fuck’s sake.

The status-quo bias in the review process is killing us. It’s not rocket science - internalizing the costs of driving on drivers works. Get it done.

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[deleted] t1_j9uvt0a wrote

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jm14ed t1_j9uw235 wrote

The working class rides the subway and bus to work.

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lu7z t1_j9uxpbn wrote

Not at all. I work in the city but I work nights when there are no NJT busses or trains from where I live. I already have to pay tolls and parking.

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jm14ed t1_j9uz8i3 wrote

Sure, not all, but the vast majority.

If you work overnight, then the proposed congestion tolls seem to be very modest.

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lu7z t1_j9v0c08 wrote

Shouldn't be a "congestion" toll overnight. I get from the Lincoln tunnel to my spot near times square in 5 minutes or less. From the GWB I can get to the same spot in 15ish minutes. Never any traffic. If I could take transportation I would, like I do during any daytime shifts I have. It's too many expenses for a regular working person. Daily it would be 11.50 for the overnight toll, 30$ for parking, and now an extra 9$ just because I took my only means of getting there.

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AceContinuum t1_j9v1lsr wrote

I have good news for you. You're still coming out ahead, even with congestion pricing, because you're not paying NY City income tax due to living in Jersey. You're also saving bigly on COL generally by living in a part of Jersey that's so off the beaten path there are "no NJT busses or trains." (Actually, where exactly is this? The NJT bus and rail network is quite extensive everywhere within an hour or so of Manhattan.)

As for transportation alternatives, I'm sure there's someplace in Jersey where you could park and switch to a 24/7 transit line, like the PATH or one of the many 24/7 bus lines that run into Port Authority.

Obviously, that's less convenient for you than driving into Manhattan proper - but that is exactly what congestion pricing is intended to target. The precise rationale is to reduce people's incentive to drive into Manhattan.

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meantnothingatall t1_j9v7k5u wrote

I don't live in Jersey but I worked nights and evenings, including weekends, for many years in health care. Transit completely sucks. Walking on the streets at that time of night sucks. Sometimes my commute back to Brooklyn would be TWO HOURS working evenings/weekends. If I drove, it would've been thirty minutes or less.

I still work evenings and they screwed with my train line so my commute home requires multiple train transfers, which is not an issue during the day. However, if one of those trains is messed up, there goes the entire ride home.

It's a totally different animal during the day. You have tons of buses, trains, express buses, etc. I feel like working evenings/nights, especially in a "twenty-four hour city" at places that need you to be there to keep patients alive, is something that should be considered. Staffing at many of these places already sucks, and adding the additional cost when you're already picking up "off shifts" will probably have people looking elsewhere.

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AceContinuum t1_j9v9zls wrote

If you're going to/from Manhattan, express bus service actually runs great overnight - faster and more reliable than during the day, due to much lighter traffic. I always prefer subways during the day and express buses at night.

If you're going between outer boroughs, then I agree transit sucks (although it also sucks during the day as well), but that wouldn't really be relevant to the congestion pricing discussion because that would only apply to Manhattan below 96th.

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meantnothingatall t1_j9vay13 wrote

There is no express bus that close to me and the closest one stops at around 7 PM. Therefore, it's useless to anyone who works off-shift. I've never lived anywhere that had overnight express buses.

I am talking about going from the outer boroughs to the city and back, which is my experience as someone who has commuted like this for years. Off-shift is a joke. Between the outer boroughs completely sucks but that is not what I was speaking to in my first comment.

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AceContinuum t1_j9vfxoa wrote

My closest express bus line also runs during peak hours only. I've never taken it because, from the MTA's timetables, it would be slower (due to traffic) than taking the subway.

However, overnight, I take a 24/7 express bus from Manhattan to S.I. and then transfer to the SIR to finish my trip. Overnight, the express bus makes it from FiDi to Old Town in 20 minutes flat. Shaves a ton of time off of waiting for the S.I. Ferry (which often goes to 1-hour headways overnight) or, worse, crawling down the Fourth Avenue line in Brooklyn on the R (which is godawful overnight).

I don't know which part of the city you're in, but I'm pretty sure there are 24/7 express bus lines to every outer borough. Perhaps you might look into taking an express bus to a subway line convenient to where you live. Even though you'd still be taking the subway for the "last mile," that could still help you save a lot of time.

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arthurnewt t1_j9v69ae wrote

New Jersey transit stops running at 1am

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jm14ed t1_j9v85t5 wrote

There are no trains from Secaucus between 2:30 am and 5 am to New York Penn. Otherwise, there are pretty frequent trains.

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[deleted] t1_j9v78rj wrote

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arthurnewt t1_j9vb6mv wrote

The path train frequencies in the middle of the night leave a lot to be desired> 30 min and on weekends nearly 1 hour runs. The bus terminal lines only go to Jersey city/ Hoboken and Newark. And some other areas. Off peak the service leaves a lot to be desired.

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b1argg t1_j9vc3o6 wrote

trains are vary infrequent at night. You are asking this person to make their commute significantly longer.

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AceContinuum t1_j9vkojy wrote

I am pointing out that there are alternatives to driving into Times Square and, if this person prefers the convenience of driving into Times Square, then that is exactly the kind of reason congestion pricing is a good thing to have.

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jm14ed t1_j9v1urs wrote

In some of the scenarios there would be a credit for paying the tolls on the Hudson River crossings, in the other scenarios it would only be a $5 toll. I don’t think that’s unreasonable when you could park at Secaucus and take NJT to Penn during the majority of the time.

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TeamMisha t1_j9wbt6y wrote

Under Toll Scenario A the overnight fee would be $5, not so bad eh? You can see the full toll scenarios here: https://new.mta.info/document/93451

Scenario A is the most equitable so I'm personally hoping that's the one that goes through... but we'll see. The $12 tolls are under Scenarios E and F which give exemptions and caps to many many people.

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MarbleFox_ t1_j9wldgh wrote

Then take it up with NJT. Why should NJT not providing NJ residents with the transit access they need influence NYC’s policy making?

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[deleted] t1_j9uwyaq wrote

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fockyou t1_j9uxc0j wrote

No, that's not what OP said and you know it.

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[deleted] t1_j9uxxhj wrote

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fockyou t1_j9uzgdi wrote

"The working class rides the subway and bus to work." != "Everyone driving to Manhattan are millionaires."

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[deleted] t1_j9v09ii wrote

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jm14ed t1_j9v25t3 wrote

Stop putting words in my mouth.

The vast majority of people take public transit to work in the congestion zone. Of course, some “working class” people drive, but many of those folks do it because they choose to, not because they have to.

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jm14ed t1_j9uxfs8 wrote

If by “disconnected” you mean dealing with facts, then I guess I’m guilty of that.

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sagenumen t1_j9vcvq5 wrote

It’ll be a rich people’s playground how? People won’t take the train because of congestion pricing?

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HEIMDVLLR t1_j9vgv89 wrote

A small number of people will take the train, but best believe they won’t hang out in Manhattan after hours. Also expect any businesses that are affected by the tolls to offload that cost onto their customers.

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sagenumen t1_j9w1inv wrote

You have a source on that first part?

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HEIMDVLLR t1_j9wircs wrote

It’s common sense, when you hang out late in Manhattan, the best way to get home is in a car (rideshare/yellow cab), because who wants to take the train late at night?

Ride-share and taxis will be subjected to congestion tolls too. You’ll be better off hanging out in Queens or Brooklyn.

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sagenumen t1_j9xvf1o wrote

I take the train home at all hours all the time

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HEIMDVLLR t1_j9y927y wrote

And when you get off the train, do you have to catch a bus?

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sagenumen t1_j9z2m7w wrote

Not home, but in those cases, I usually take the train as far as I can and get a car to meet me. I do the bus sometimes. Depends on timing.

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HEIMDVLLR t1_j9zrjld wrote

See that’s what I’m talking about, if I have to take a bus or catch a ride the rest of the way home and it’s late. Then I rather not travel to Manhattan and deal with the subway system. Easier to stay local and then catch that same ride home.

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sagenumen t1_j9zs0ec wrote

There are plenty of places to hang in Queens and Brooklyn. All the parties these days are in brooklyn

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HEIMDVLLR t1_ja065eb wrote

That’s my original point, congestion tolls surrounding Manhattan will just magnify what’s already happening. Outer borough residents will stay local more often and the hype about Manhattan will fade.

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b1argg t1_j9vaqn0 wrote

if it were actually about congestion, the price would be dynamic based on current congestion levels.

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TeamMisha t1_j9wcfhv wrote

It can be more complex and costly to monitor congestion precisely in real time, though is possible. Time of Day based plans were probably chosen for simplicity in the tolling structure and using averages from existing data. It also means it would be much more difficult to analyze and forecast this, unless you again used an assumed average. To first model average congestion, which itself is a tricky metric given the size of the CBD, and then change the toll, and then study how it reduces congestion in real time, the traffic modeling work to do that... I would shoot my brains out that would be insane to study lol. On the bright side, the toll structure has flexibility, they can tweak peak hours and off peak costs for example, that's gonna be much easier to do versus dynamic monitoring.

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b1argg t1_j9wr6t5 wrote

There are plenty of highways with tolled Express lanes that dynamically adjust the toll. Every entrance to the tolled area will have gantries anyway so its simple to count entrances and exits.

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TeamMisha t1_j9wunyv wrote

HOT lanes are simple in nature compared to tolling an entire portion of the city. Volume at entrance and exit is one dataset, what about everything in between? The grid is massive, is just checking toll gantries sufficient? Some may say no, I'd tend to agree. Volume inbound alone doesn't necessarily paint the whole picture of what "congestion" is happening inside the cordon. Might not work out so well, or maybe it would, it's very hard to tell which is probably why it was not considered due to the complexity. Nothing about measuring congestion in the CBD is simple, trust me on that one, the traffic on the street grid is probably one of the most complex systems in the entire city.

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pixel_of_moral_decay t1_j9vg5i6 wrote

That’s fine. If people drive less, the city makes up for it with increased city tax. Done deal.

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