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kmkkllk3 t1_itl36df wrote

Right now legal aid doesn't pay enough to attract many attorneys. Even people who want to help can't afford to take a job like this unless they want to face eviction themselves.

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burnshimself t1_itl7l1s wrote

Yep. You can’t afford to live in New York and pay down law school debt if you are making $85k working for legal aid. What you’re left with is people who truly feel a compelling draw to the job (which many do!) and the financial means to take it on (usually financial support from family or spouse), and the dumbest attorneys incapable of getting a job paying any better.

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Ice_Like_Winnipeg t1_itlhnxc wrote

A lot of those people are expecting to qualify for pslf, but it’s still a tough ask to commit yourself to ten years of really emotionally difficult work

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OverlordXenu t1_itm74xw wrote

i have two friends working for the public defenders of a specific boro, and they make like $74k. a friend of mine just moved to boston and was telling me the public service jobs there are $60-80k. it's bleak.

also the public defenders in nyc don't have enough budget to hire all the lawyers they need. the money literally isn't there.

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soyeahiknow t1_itnzgkb wrote

Also you encounter the professional tenant freeloader and then you wonder why the hell you are getting paid peanuts to help someone game the system

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[deleted] t1_itlh99w wrote

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mastermind_loco t1_itli1uk wrote

Yes, PLSF is a really great program with no flaws or issues at all. /s

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sagenumen t1_itlnml7 wrote

What's your point?

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KaiDaiz t1_itlphar wrote

Most ppl on PLSF end up not getting remaining balance forgiven after 10 yrs due to wrong loan, wrong payment plan, job not qualify, etc...and govt at whim can cancel program at anytime. Look at the number of actual loans forgiven by PLSF each year...its minuscular.

Also PLSF at best save you from paying the interest on the loan and some of the principle that you already would have paid off a good amount even on the income based payments for a lot of work and hopefulness it works successfully vs. get a high paying job in private law practice that pays off loan in a few yrs

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[deleted] t1_itlw96b wrote

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TheGhostofJoeGibbs t1_itmlqaj wrote

The reason there's a PSLF waiver right now is because of how hard it has been to qualify to get paid out.

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[deleted] t1_itlvrih wrote

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Daddy_Macron t1_itm1ib7 wrote

Look at the PLSF rates during the last Republican President. They hate the program and find every reason possible to deny applicants their rightful forgiveness money. You're playing a dangerous game that it'll be a Democratic President in the White House when it's your turn.

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[deleted] t1_itmqsi5 wrote

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Daddy_Macron t1_itmry1x wrote

> I mean, there are set rules to follow and if you follow them, they can’t deny you.

Lol. Ok. Do you think 98.5% of people were fucking up their applications or was the Republican Administration looking for the nitpickiest of reasons to deny people. Considering how many people applying for them were lawyers, I doubt it was due to sloppiness.

>The earliest time in which borrowers could receive forgiveness under the program was after October 1, 2017. The Department of Education reported that 2,215 borrowers had the remainder of their respective student loans forgiven under the program as of April 30, 2020 for a denial rate of 98.5%

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LikesBallsDeep t1_itlwnep wrote

PSLF is mostly a scam. GF was a doctor that was promised PSLF for working at a hospital with underprivileged patients. 9 years into it they kicked her out for 'making too much money' one year.

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grizybaer t1_itm2cw3 wrote

Lots of doctors in my circles making 300k+ and qualifying for PSLF. Income has nothing to do it with it.

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LikesBallsDeep t1_itmggr5 wrote

This was several years ago. Rules changed recently to be a lot more lenient because only 7000 people had managed to get relief previously.

https://www.nlc.org/article/2022/08/08/the-limited-pslf-waiver-a-game-changer-for-city-employees/#:~:text=Crucially%2C%20there%20is%20no%20income,fully%20forgiven%2C%20tax%2Dfree.

Maybe she was incorrectly kicked off and could have fought it.

But by that point she was so sick of paying federal loans at the insane rate when she could refinance to private at 2% interest that she just did that.

Yeah, under the new guidelines and knowing student loan forgiveness was coming, maybe thing should have been different. In 2019, she just got slapped in the face that after working toward this for almost a decade and accruing interest at the high Federal rate she wasn't going to get it and just gave up.

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[deleted] t1_itlx2ih wrote

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LikesBallsDeep t1_itlxppv wrote

Meh, she'll get by. But being in your late 30s and still paying student loans sucks.

You keep saying PSLF as if it's some great solution, but I'm giving you an example of why professionals don't want to go through the shit required to get PSLF.

You just don't want to hear it. Fine, but then suck it the fuck up when you wonder why you can't get a doctors appointment or anyone to represent you in court.

LOL, who do you think is losing here? The professionals will be fine. You'll be left crying you can't get their service for free and facing the consequences.

What makes you think it's OK to basically scam the few intelligent, hard working people that are giving up more money to work for underserved communities like you want, by fucking them over? And could you maybe imagine some longer term consequences of PSLF getting this reputation, maybe on future professionals deciding whether to pursue it?

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[deleted] t1_itlz9ys wrote

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LikesBallsDeep t1_itmgobo wrote

Lol, you may be a lawyer, but economics still escapes you.

Nobody's in a position to be picky about taking those that want the job vs those that want the deal, when even both groups combined aren't anywhere near meeting the demand.

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OverlordXenu t1_itm799e wrote

going to med school can cost like a million dollars. the payments on that can make $300k look like $40k.

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arwedgorella t1_itlh3cy wrote

This. I did a law school clinic at Legal Aid Housing and they are hiring but nobody is applying due to the low pay and insane workload. Each lawyer there has a caseload of 50-80 clients at any given time. With that many clients at once, it’s extremely difficult to give your full attention to every one of your clients. It’s an important job, but unfortunately the pay is too low to attract many attorneys, many of whom are 6 figures in debt.

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mrpotatoe3044 t1_itm369i wrote

This isn't true. Legal Aid jobs are quite competitive in NYC.

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[deleted] t1_itlhb77 wrote

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KaiDaiz t1_itli50o wrote

Or work in private sector and pay off loan faster. After 10 yrs making income based payments and if paperwork goes through successfully- you practically paid off or near the principle by then anyway

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DoctorK16 t1_itms4gx wrote

I’d have to agree with you. It’s simply not worth it financially to work for places like legal aid unless you have money already. When it comes to paying back student loans, forget about it. It’s really a shame because if these places paid more (it’s not like they don’t have the money) they wouldn’t have to have attorneys with 60 cases at a time.

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[deleted] t1_itlwub1 wrote

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KaiDaiz t1_itlz4f3 wrote

IBR wont be that low unless they doing min wage job and expecting no wage increase entire 10 yrs. Use this calculator. Say 60k job with some growth single with 220k student loan. Look how under IBR the balance paid in the 10 yrs already exceeds the principle.

https://studentloanhero.com/calculators/student-loan-income-based-repayment-calculator/

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[deleted] t1_itm03rw wrote

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KaiDaiz t1_itm1555 wrote

Fine didn't notice the 25 yr calculations from that calculator. Regardless wont be 200-250 a month as you state. Using avg public defender salary in nyc of 80k and your 220k debt in this calculator.

https://www.studentloanplanner.com/public-service-loan-forgiveness-pslf-calculator/

So to save 225k -still a lot of checks you have to meet and what ifs to successfully last the entire 10 yrs for loan to be forgiven. Congress can easily can program if they want during budget negotiations. Which did came up during last tax cut debate. You want to hinge all that uncertainty by working at a job that offer less pay, limited networking, limited options of switching jobs and career opportunity for 10 yrs?

Especially the early years of career that will define your earning potential for rest of career. Factor all that, saving that 225k not worth it for many.

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mrpotatoe3044 t1_itm3b8d wrote

Any "canning" can't be retroactive since PSLF is literally written in the promissory note of these loans.

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KaiDaiz t1_itm412n wrote

Still a lot of uncertainty and career tradeoffs ...can easily see why ppl don't see PSLF that compelling.

If you dead set on being a public defender or working for employer that qualifies for 10 yr go ahead. Not many be willing to work with that limitation.

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mrpotatoe3044 t1_itm4n57 wrote

For sure that's a genuine con of PSLF, you have to be public interest for at least 10 years, just not the possibility of PSLF getting scrapped midway through- they'd have to be grandfathered in still.

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LikesBallsDeep t1_itlwua0 wrote

You're entitled to your opinion, but clearly the lawyers themselves, presumably a decently intelligent bunch, are deciding it is not a good deal.

Or do you think they just haven't heard of PSLF?

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[deleted] t1_itlxfgt wrote

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LikesBallsDeep t1_itly8za wrote

Right..

> it’s supposed to be for people who want to work these jobs, but it wouldn’t be financially possible to without it

Except a lot of the time you end up fucked and not getting it anyway, so you risk putting yourself in a financially impossible situation 8 years into it. Does that sound like a great offer?

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b1argg t1_itrsebj wrote

Yeah Trump's DoE started fighting applicants

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Woodstock815 t1_itly92z wrote

Adding to this- I work for a private NYC law firm that assists with local aid agencies to provide pro bono representation and help “fill the gaps” with workload. There just are not enough attorneys to handle all of these cases. In addition, there are so many different types of covid-related representation that are needed these days- not just housing - in the past year, we have helped with housing, immigration, credit issues, tax deficiencies, business-related issues, employment issues, just to name a few - most or all of which are at least in part related to the pandemic. Need to free or low cost legal services has exploded. Promising free representation (which I fully support!) does nothing of you don’t have the attorneys to supply it.

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danuser8 t1_ito7j8t wrote

> Right now legal aid doesn't pay enough to attract many attorneys.

Unfortunately, same applies to city jobs in general. It’s scary to think with all the talent being lost, what will be the fate and future functionality of these city agencies

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movingtobay2019 t1_itoh9hk wrote

There wasn't much talent to begin with in city agencies. How many top tier talents do you know that willingly go work for city agencies?

Top software engineers go to FAANG. Top law school grads go into big law. Top business school grads go into banking and consulting.

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