Submitted by AutoModerator t3_yvo2pl in nyc
actualtext t1_iwh3nj5 wrote
Reply to comment by [deleted] in Weekly Crime Thread - Week of November 15, 2022 by AutoModerator
> Also uncomfortable is the fact that Eric Adams is a black mayor who was a former cop, voted by many POC who were worried about public safety.
That's right. He ran on a police friendly platform. How's that working out? I'm not surprised much hasn't changed under him.
> * NYC: 15.3 blacks murdered per 100,000 blacks in NY > (With the same calculation, the murder rate victimizing whites in NYC is 0.8 per 100,000)
Since you were comparing the numbers to Jacksonville, what do those splits look like? Also, can you share your data source?
No one is saying the media is making up numbers. What people are saying is some specific outlets were and continue to leverage fear in whatever capacity to get people to vote a certain way and to slowly change how people think. They'll make connections where none exist. They'll look at numbers and not provide context. This happens on both sides of course. But the fact remains that crime is up all over the country. The media would have you believe that things are completely out of control in NYC and that's it's complete chaos here.
If you want to focus on how this is primarily impacting POC, it would be interesting to see trends over the last 25 years broken down by race.
I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that the issue of POC experiencing more crime is not a product of color skin but rather of poverty. Further, I'm willing to bet it's a lot more POC committing crime against other POC. And I say that because I'm going to guess if you're POC you're probably more likely to live in a poorer neighborhood.
To another of your points, having a weekly thread dedicated to crime has been great. It's not censorship. People can post and discuss as they want. It's literally stickied. It feels like a lot more topics are coming up now that are more varied instead of feeling like the sub was being brigaded and literally all focused on crime. I for one hope this arrangement sticks.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwh5gth wrote
>That's right. He ran on a police friendly platform. How's that working out? I'm not surprised much hasn't changed under him.
Violence was accelerating when Adams took office. He brought back the violent crimes units and other measures, but it's clear that he is facing resistance from Albany to reform certain laws, let's see if any of that changes the trajectory.
​
>Since you were comparing the numbers to Jacksonville, what do those splits look like? Also, can you share your data source?
This is where I disagree with most people, because there are two separate questions:
- How bad is it for X group?
- What's "good enough" for X group?
The first one should be measured using demographic breakdowns, surely.
The second one should not depend on demographic breakdowns, and absolutely not by segregating the standards of what "good enough" is for each group, lest we will simply continue perpetuating the disparity.
actualtext t1_iwhif9d wrote
I think Adams is facing resistance to reform certain laws because from what I recall he was basing his arguments that had no basis on data. Basically blaming bail reform laws. We know for a fact that's not the issue.
At this point, the only thing two things one could argue is that: 1) the state should consider an objective standard that allows a judge to revoke bail and 2) to reconsider what crimes are bail eligible. There's also the component where DAs have discretion on reducing criminal charges that also gets tricky because at the end of the day they need to defend their cases and if you go to high on the charges the person might get away free.
I asked for the splits because you made a comparison initially but then didn't do so later on when you broke things down by race. If the point is that crime against POC in NYC is out of control and ignored then let's compare that to other city and see the breakdown. Comparisons are very helpful. And so are trends. It doesn't mean you can ignore crime. But perspective is important.
I think what it boils down to is the following. Crime is up compared to recent years but not anywhere near the worst years of crime in this city and country. But historic numbers are obviously not very useful for people feeling the uptick in crime. So if crime is up what are the contributing factors that have led to that rise in crime? Is crime worse in NYC compared to the rest of the state? Is it worse than other cities and/or states? Is it worse for certain racial groups? Or is it worse because of new laws? Or is it because of the pandemic? Higher unemployment? Inflation? Because certain practices were discontinued? You get the idea. Obviously you'd need to normalize the data.
I think those pieces of info can help inform how to best tackle the issue of reducing crime in the short and long term. It's quite obvious that having police in every street and every train and station is not feasible. I don't know what the NYPD is doing but I imagine each precinct has their areas where they focus more on due to higher criminal activity. But there are issues that the NYPD simply isn't going to be able to tackle. Like mental health issues and addiction and homelessness. They are real issues and impact quality of life in the city but are they crimes? Feels like to me that this is the real issue and outside of Hochul saying they are making more use of Kendra's law, I'm not sure if that has been sufficient. Or if that needs to be improved upon.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwhxx1f wrote
>Comparisons are very helpful. And so are trends. It doesn't mean you can ignore crime. But perspective is important.
So far, I've only seem such comparison being used to downplay the issue.
People are not honestly asking about how blacks are victimized in Jacksonville to find a way to fix the problems in NYC. They are asking that to relativize and dismiss the problem we have here by making the case that it's "good enough".
​
>Is crime worse in NYC compared to the rest of the state? Is it worse than other cities and/or states? Is it worse for certain racial groups? Or is it worse because of new laws? Or is it because of the pandemic? Higher unemployment? Inflation? Because certain practices were discontinued?
By acknowledging there's a problem, and asking those questions, you're a bit ahead of the curve. Thank you for that.
>They are real issues and impact quality of life in the city but are they crimes?
A bit odd for you to bring that up in a conversation about demographic disparities in murder victimization.
mission17 t1_iwi0sjd wrote
> People are not honestly asking about how blacks are victimized in Jacksonville to find a way to fix the problems in NYC.
They’re asking because you’re manipulating statistics in a bad faith effort to portray crime in New York as worse than crime in Jacksonville. We’re all incredibly cognizant of racial inequities.
However, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to compare the conditions of Black people in New York to a group including non-Black people in Jacksonville. It makes sense to compare the conditions of Black people in New York to Black people in Jacksonville if you’re going to cherry pick.
Black people are also the subject of inequities in Jacksonville. Just as they are in New York. Pointing out how white people are better situated in other places says nearly nothing about the relative conditions between Black people in the two places.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwiaijl wrote
>... to portray crime in New York as worse than crime in Jacksonville. We’re all incredibly cognizant of racial inequities.
Do you think that's honestly true, given that you were part of the crowd arguing that NYC is simply safer than Jacksonville? As if NYC was uniformly safer than Jacksonville?
I'll even set aside the whole discussion about population densities.
​
>However, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to compare the conditions of Black people in New York to a group including non-Black people in Jacksonville.
Jacksonville became one measuring stick for public safety in the debate about safety in NYC.
So now, if it turns out many in NYC are worse-off compared to that measuring stick, the problem is the measuring stick?
​
>Black people are also the subject of inequities in Jacksonville. Just as they are in New York. Pointing out how white people are better situated in other places says nearly nothing about the relative conditions between Black people in the two places.
In other words, "good enough" for blacks?
mission17 t1_iwiblsn wrote
> So now, if it turns out many in NYC are worse-off compared to that measuring stick, the problem is the measuring stick?
You’re using two different measuring sticks. Black people in New York are safer than Black people in Jacksonville. White people in New York are safer than white people in Jacksonville. The fact that Black people in New York have it worse off than white people in Jacksonville speaks miles to racial inequities which exist everywhere.
It in no way whatsoever indicates that Jacksonville is safer than New York in the slightest. None of your data says that. And you realize this.
> In other words, "good enough" for blacks?
No. Which is why I support measures that help eliminate the effects of racial inequities in New York. You’re getting really close to understanding why progressives so zealously advocate for policies like ending stop and frisk and enacting bail reform, both meant to combat the unfair treatment Black New Yorkers face relative to their white peers.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwidj5d wrote
>You’re using two different measuring sticks.
>
>Black people in New York are safer than Black people in Jacksonville. White people in New York are safer than white people in Jacksonville.
You're the one using two measuring sticks: murder rate of blacks in Jacksonville and murder rate of whites in Jacksonville.
I'm only using one: the murder rate of any person in Jacksonville.
mission17 t1_iwiej9u wrote
> I'm only using one: the murder rate of any person in Jacksonville.
That’s literally not what you’re doing. You compared the rate of crime against exclusively Black people in New York to all people, Black or white, in Jacksonville:
> When taking into account that blacks/African-Americans accounts for 67.00% of the murder victims in NYC, but only 23.80% of the NYC population, it implies that a significant fraction of NYC is less safe than the typical person in Jacksonville
That is not an apples to apples comparison at all, no matter how many times you attempt to make it out to be and no matter how many times you will surely copy and paste the same paragraph over and over in the next week. You will be called out for the bullshit every time.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwig7hr wrote
How about an analogy:
To enter a ride in an amusement park, a child needs to be taller than the measuring stick, otherwise they may get injured.
What we have today:
- Two measuring sticks, one for blacks and one for whites.
- As a result, many blacks kids are getting injured compared to white kids, because the measuring stick for blacks is broken.
My argument is: we shouldn't have two measuring ticks. Just one that is safe for everyone equaly.
Your argument: the amusement park across the street also has a broken black measuring stick, and it's even more broken!
mission17 t1_iwih2un wrote
I cannot believe I'm going to engage with this stupid and bad-faith analogy, but alas.
We know that Black people face worse conditions when it comes to being victims of crime everywhere. But you're using evidence of Black people in New York facing more crime than a group including non-Black people in Jacksonville as evidence that New York is less safe. That's just not true. Because you should either be comparing solely Black people in the two cities or all people in both. Comparing one metric to the other just makes no sense.
In your analogy, what you're doing is comparing the rate of accidents involving just children in New York to the rate of accidents involving both children and adults in Jacksonville. That simply makes no sense.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwij2db wrote
>In your analogy, what you're doing is comparing the rate of accidents involving just children in New York to the rate of accidents involving both children and adults in Jacksonville. That simply makes no sense.
What separates children and adults is not the color on their skin.
There's obviously a historical disparity in victimizations based on the skin color. We all know of that.
Do you think such historical disparity is a good (ethical/moral) argument to continue using two separate measuring sticks?
I suggest you reflect on that for a minute.
mission17 t1_iwijbtk wrote
> There's obviously a historical disparity in victimizations based on the skin color.
Yes, but there is absolutely no historical discrepancy I'm aware of when it comes to rollercoaster safety based on race. You're being ridiculous.
> Do you think such historical disparity is a good (ethical/moral) argument to continue using two separate measuring sticks?
...you're the one who broke the measuring sticks in the first place! You are the one who cherry-picked exclusively Black people in New York and compared them to a group including Black and non-Black people in Florida. Why weren't you using the same measuring stick in both instances?
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwinse2 wrote
>...you're the one who broke the measuring sticks in the first place! You are the one who cherry-picked exclusively Black people in New York and compared them to a group including Black and non-Black people in Florida. Why weren't you using the same measuring stick in both instances?
I'll try one last time.
There are 4 numbers here:
- Overall murder rate in NYC.
- Overall murder rate in Jacksonville.
- Murder rate of Blacks in NYC.
- Murder rate of Blacks in Jacksonville.
I'm claiming that the fact that the "Overall murder rate in NYC" is lower than the "Overall murder rate in Jacksonville" should not be used to dismiss crime concerns.
I'm supporting that claim with the fact that there's at least one segment of the population in NYC that does not enjoy that standard, namely, "Murder rate of Blacks in NYC" is worse than "overall murder rate in Jacksonville".
You're claiming that "Murder rate of Blacks in NYC" should really be compared to "Murder rate of Blacks in Jacksonville" instead. Is it your conclusion that this comparison can be used to dismiss crime concerns?
mission17 t1_iwiqctm wrote
Okay, /u/NetQuarterLatte. Now do the inverse for a holistic understanding here. What is the murder rate of Black people in Jacksonville relative to the overall murder rate in New York. You are going to find what we already know, that Black Americans have it worse off everywhere.
You’re making the arguments of progressives for them, that intense efforts should be made to reduce racial inequities. Now it’s time for you to do the heavy lifting and actually advocate for the policies that are demonstrated to do this.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwiwdep wrote
>Now it’s time for you to do the heavy lifting and actually advocate for the policies that are demonstrated to do this.
Alright, now that we established that there's a valid concern about crimes in NYC, I think that's where most people would inject some fear-mongering comment against "tough-on-crime". But thank you for not doing that.
What policies do you believe have been demonstrated to reduce crime victimization? Given that we are talking about the disparity of victimization here.
mission17 t1_iwixm5p wrote
Glad you totally ignored the entire point of our conversation and pivoted upon realization that your stats didn’t say what you purported them to say at all.
> Alright, now that we established that there's a valid concern about crimes in NYC
I think now would be an appropriate time to apologize for lying about what your statistics said.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwiyb22 wrote
​
>Glad you totally ignored the entire point of our conversation and pivoted upon realization that your stats didn’t say what you purported them to say at all....
>
>I think now would be an appropriate time to apologize for lying about what your statistics said.
Are you saying that "concerns about crimes shouldn't be dismissed" is a lie?
>Now it’s time for you to do the heavy lifting and actually advocate for the policies that are demonstrated to do this.
I'll ask again: what policies do you believe have been demonstrated to reduce crime victimization?
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwidakw wrote
>Black New Yorkers face relative to their white peers.
- 15.3 blacks murdered per 100,000 blacks in NYC
- 0.8 whites murdered per 100,000 whites in NYC
mission17 t1_iwidmrw wrote
Congratulations, you discovered institutional racism! Progressives have been talking about this for well over a century to constant conservative denialism. Now let’s work together on the progressive policies that have been proven to reduce these inequities instead of the “tough-on-crime” policies that exacerbate them?
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwifken wrote
You're pretty deep into the fear-mongering rhetoric against the return of "tough-on-crime". Not what I've been advocating.
I think you know how a person sounds from the outside when their mind is wrapped by fear-mongering of crimes. I wish you could see how you sound.
mission17 t1_iwifwbb wrote
You know everyone else can peep into your comments and realize you’re full of shit, right? Like, when you lie, people can see everything you post and realize that you’re being dishonest? This website is anonymous, but when you comment incessantly, people can discern pretty clearly what you stand for.
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