Submitted by AutoModerator t3_yvo2pl in nyc
[deleted] t1_iwgrbir wrote
[removed]
elizabeth-cooper t1_iwgsv9q wrote
Jacksonville - black people are 30% of the population, 75% of the murder victims.
Jacksonville's entire population is just under a million. Black population: 300k. Number of black murder victims: 75. Murder rate: 25 per 100k.
NYC wins again!
Your overall point is not wrong, but your stats are irrelevant.
York_Villain t1_iwgx4px wrote
He's mad that the copy/pasted crime statistics he's receiving aren't justifying racist policing. So instead he's trying to say that NYC is racist for having better crime statistics? lmao
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwgy8d3 wrote
I'm all ears for your argument about how NYC is not racist when it comes to public safety.
York_Villain t1_iwhe45f wrote
Sorry, I'm only here to laugh at the quarantined crime spam.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwgt40t wrote
Well, thank you for giving us a perfect example of double-standards.
When the standard of public safety that each person deserves is based on their color.
elizabeth-cooper t1_iwgtm0d wrote
?
This is the comparison that matters, not a shithole town in Florida.
>(With the same calculation, the murder rate victimizing whites in NYC is 0.8 per 100,000)
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwgucsk wrote
>This is the comparison that matters, not a shithole town in Florida.
I agree with you.
But did you just miss the whole crime narrative prior to the election comparing NYC to random republican states?
I'm basically saying: NYC is not uniformly better than said shithole town in Florida. Maybe we should collectively get off the high-horse for a moment.
elizabeth-cooper t1_iwhfxqn wrote
But it is better, that's the comparison. A black person has a higher chance of being murdered in Jacksonville than in NYC.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwhwexu wrote
>But it is better, that's the comparison. A black person has a higher chance of being murdered in Jacksonville than in NYC.
You can celebrate NYC, as many do, because you can believe that's good enough. Many people will buy that argument.
I just wish we can live in a world where "good enough" doesn't depend on the color of one's skin.
mission17 t1_iwhwqvg wrote
Then maybe let’s support efforts that encourage racial equity in the justice system, like bail reform.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwhyv4h wrote
>Then maybe let’s support efforts that encourage racial equity in the justice system, like bail reform.
So why not continue the reform in the criminal justice system?
The courts are still slow, DAs are being overwhelmed and same with public defenders.
The "reformers" took power, did a half-ass job, and switched towards defending the status quo real quick.
It's almost as if some politicians actually benefit from perpetuating the issues, while posing as the "advocates".
mission17 t1_iwi0083 wrote
> So why not continue the reform in the criminal justice system?
Did Progressives really give up on advocating for reforms, or do you just not like their proposals because they’re not right wing enough?
> and switched towards defending the status quo real quick
They’re actually spending a lot of time defending the policies they enacted from attacks from the right and the center, in case you haven’t noticed. You know all those New York Post articles about bail reform you’re in always in the comments for? How are supporters of progressive policies benefitting at all from these programs being rolled back? Please be for real right now.
> It's almost as if some politicians actually benefit from perpetuating the issues, while posing as the "advocates".
What issues? Who are the “advocates”? How are they benefitting? This vague progressive boogeyman shit is exhausting.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwicgch wrote
>Did Progressives really give up on advocating for reforms, or do you just not like their proposals because they’re not right wing enough?
The advocacy changed from advocating for reforms to defending the status quo.
Because progressives in power don't need to advocate anymore, when they can exercise the power to walk the talk instead.
​
>They’re actually spending a lot of time defending the policies they enacted from attacks from the right and the center, in case you haven’t noticed.
So the criticisms, valid or invalid, are to blame for the reforms being stopped?
>You know all those New York Post articles about bail reform you’re in always in the comments for? How are supporters of progressive policies benefitting at all from these programs being rolled back? Please be for real right now.
It's very simple.
Fear-mongering about "reforms being rolled back" is what's benefiting those politicians.
Note that I'm not saying anything about rolling anything back, but you're framing it that way here because such fear-mongering message is deeply entrenched in your mind at this point.
​
>What issues? Who are the “advocates”? How are they benefitting? This vague progressive boogeyman shit is exhausting.
Like opposing de-escalation training for the police... to benefit from headlines of police brutality?
Like reducing the police force in NYPD, causing a predictable increase in police violence (inversely correlated with under-staffing of police departments)... to benefit from headlines of more police brutality?
Like erasing gangs database... to benefit from more headlines about more violence in Riker's?
Like disseminating mistrust in the police, to cause more POC youth on becoming first-time offenders... to increase the number of people who have an encounter with the broken justice system?
You ask who? The list is large. AOC, Tiffany Cabán, Steward-Cousins, and many more.
mission17 t1_iwie3hs wrote
You seem confused about what progressivism is. Once again, progressive doesn’t mean /u/NetQuarterLatte’s favorite policy.
None of the policies you listed at the bottom are progressive. Progressives are not advocating for increasing police funding or discouraging BLM protests. Those are pretty clearly right-wing policies.
I’m sorry that progressives are not enacting your favorite conservative policies. But you are not a progressive. Earlier today, you used Lee Zeldin as an example of a moderate Republican.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwiew88 wrote
I'm kind of disappointed that you're back at disingenuously mischaracterizing other people's comments to create straw arguments.
If you have strong ideas, you could be doing the opposite: make an iron man argument instead.
I'm not sure if you will ever understand the above.
​
>Earlier today, you used Lee Zeldin as an example of a moderate Republican.
I cited Zeldin as a republican who moved less than an inch towards the center (exact words I used).
But you are mischaracterizing that as a "moderate Republican" lol
k1lk1 t1_iwgtojv wrote
I mean you used bad stats to make an overall good point, next time don't undermine your argument by manipulating the data.
newestindustry t1_iwh0ayx wrote
How sure are you it’s a good point if the stats don’t support it
k1lk1 t1_iwh4hjj wrote
The overall point he was making, I believe, is that black people suffer phenomenally worse rates of violent victimization than other races, and it's crazy our politicians don't seem to care about it. The former clause is factual and inarguable, the latter is a political point but IMO a good one.
The point he was wrong about is his idea that Jacksonville's crime rates are close to NYCs on a racial victimization basis - they aren't.
actualtext t1_iwh3nj5 wrote
> Also uncomfortable is the fact that Eric Adams is a black mayor who was a former cop, voted by many POC who were worried about public safety.
That's right. He ran on a police friendly platform. How's that working out? I'm not surprised much hasn't changed under him.
> * NYC: 15.3 blacks murdered per 100,000 blacks in NY > (With the same calculation, the murder rate victimizing whites in NYC is 0.8 per 100,000)
Since you were comparing the numbers to Jacksonville, what do those splits look like? Also, can you share your data source?
No one is saying the media is making up numbers. What people are saying is some specific outlets were and continue to leverage fear in whatever capacity to get people to vote a certain way and to slowly change how people think. They'll make connections where none exist. They'll look at numbers and not provide context. This happens on both sides of course. But the fact remains that crime is up all over the country. The media would have you believe that things are completely out of control in NYC and that's it's complete chaos here.
If you want to focus on how this is primarily impacting POC, it would be interesting to see trends over the last 25 years broken down by race.
I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that the issue of POC experiencing more crime is not a product of color skin but rather of poverty. Further, I'm willing to bet it's a lot more POC committing crime against other POC. And I say that because I'm going to guess if you're POC you're probably more likely to live in a poorer neighborhood.
To another of your points, having a weekly thread dedicated to crime has been great. It's not censorship. People can post and discuss as they want. It's literally stickied. It feels like a lot more topics are coming up now that are more varied instead of feeling like the sub was being brigaded and literally all focused on crime. I for one hope this arrangement sticks.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwh5gth wrote
>That's right. He ran on a police friendly platform. How's that working out? I'm not surprised much hasn't changed under him.
Violence was accelerating when Adams took office. He brought back the violent crimes units and other measures, but it's clear that he is facing resistance from Albany to reform certain laws, let's see if any of that changes the trajectory.
​
>Since you were comparing the numbers to Jacksonville, what do those splits look like? Also, can you share your data source?
This is where I disagree with most people, because there are two separate questions:
- How bad is it for X group?
- What's "good enough" for X group?
The first one should be measured using demographic breakdowns, surely.
The second one should not depend on demographic breakdowns, and absolutely not by segregating the standards of what "good enough" is for each group, lest we will simply continue perpetuating the disparity.
actualtext t1_iwhif9d wrote
I think Adams is facing resistance to reform certain laws because from what I recall he was basing his arguments that had no basis on data. Basically blaming bail reform laws. We know for a fact that's not the issue.
At this point, the only thing two things one could argue is that: 1) the state should consider an objective standard that allows a judge to revoke bail and 2) to reconsider what crimes are bail eligible. There's also the component where DAs have discretion on reducing criminal charges that also gets tricky because at the end of the day they need to defend their cases and if you go to high on the charges the person might get away free.
I asked for the splits because you made a comparison initially but then didn't do so later on when you broke things down by race. If the point is that crime against POC in NYC is out of control and ignored then let's compare that to other city and see the breakdown. Comparisons are very helpful. And so are trends. It doesn't mean you can ignore crime. But perspective is important.
I think what it boils down to is the following. Crime is up compared to recent years but not anywhere near the worst years of crime in this city and country. But historic numbers are obviously not very useful for people feeling the uptick in crime. So if crime is up what are the contributing factors that have led to that rise in crime? Is crime worse in NYC compared to the rest of the state? Is it worse than other cities and/or states? Is it worse for certain racial groups? Or is it worse because of new laws? Or is it because of the pandemic? Higher unemployment? Inflation? Because certain practices were discontinued? You get the idea. Obviously you'd need to normalize the data.
I think those pieces of info can help inform how to best tackle the issue of reducing crime in the short and long term. It's quite obvious that having police in every street and every train and station is not feasible. I don't know what the NYPD is doing but I imagine each precinct has their areas where they focus more on due to higher criminal activity. But there are issues that the NYPD simply isn't going to be able to tackle. Like mental health issues and addiction and homelessness. They are real issues and impact quality of life in the city but are they crimes? Feels like to me that this is the real issue and outside of Hochul saying they are making more use of Kendra's law, I'm not sure if that has been sufficient. Or if that needs to be improved upon.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwhxx1f wrote
>Comparisons are very helpful. And so are trends. It doesn't mean you can ignore crime. But perspective is important.
So far, I've only seem such comparison being used to downplay the issue.
People are not honestly asking about how blacks are victimized in Jacksonville to find a way to fix the problems in NYC. They are asking that to relativize and dismiss the problem we have here by making the case that it's "good enough".
​
>Is crime worse in NYC compared to the rest of the state? Is it worse than other cities and/or states? Is it worse for certain racial groups? Or is it worse because of new laws? Or is it because of the pandemic? Higher unemployment? Inflation? Because certain practices were discontinued?
By acknowledging there's a problem, and asking those questions, you're a bit ahead of the curve. Thank you for that.
>They are real issues and impact quality of life in the city but are they crimes?
A bit odd for you to bring that up in a conversation about demographic disparities in murder victimization.
mission17 t1_iwi0sjd wrote
> People are not honestly asking about how blacks are victimized in Jacksonville to find a way to fix the problems in NYC.
They’re asking because you’re manipulating statistics in a bad faith effort to portray crime in New York as worse than crime in Jacksonville. We’re all incredibly cognizant of racial inequities.
However, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to compare the conditions of Black people in New York to a group including non-Black people in Jacksonville. It makes sense to compare the conditions of Black people in New York to Black people in Jacksonville if you’re going to cherry pick.
Black people are also the subject of inequities in Jacksonville. Just as they are in New York. Pointing out how white people are better situated in other places says nearly nothing about the relative conditions between Black people in the two places.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwiaijl wrote
>... to portray crime in New York as worse than crime in Jacksonville. We’re all incredibly cognizant of racial inequities.
Do you think that's honestly true, given that you were part of the crowd arguing that NYC is simply safer than Jacksonville? As if NYC was uniformly safer than Jacksonville?
I'll even set aside the whole discussion about population densities.
​
>However, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to compare the conditions of Black people in New York to a group including non-Black people in Jacksonville.
Jacksonville became one measuring stick for public safety in the debate about safety in NYC.
So now, if it turns out many in NYC are worse-off compared to that measuring stick, the problem is the measuring stick?
​
>Black people are also the subject of inequities in Jacksonville. Just as they are in New York. Pointing out how white people are better situated in other places says nearly nothing about the relative conditions between Black people in the two places.
In other words, "good enough" for blacks?
mission17 t1_iwiblsn wrote
> So now, if it turns out many in NYC are worse-off compared to that measuring stick, the problem is the measuring stick?
You’re using two different measuring sticks. Black people in New York are safer than Black people in Jacksonville. White people in New York are safer than white people in Jacksonville. The fact that Black people in New York have it worse off than white people in Jacksonville speaks miles to racial inequities which exist everywhere.
It in no way whatsoever indicates that Jacksonville is safer than New York in the slightest. None of your data says that. And you realize this.
> In other words, "good enough" for blacks?
No. Which is why I support measures that help eliminate the effects of racial inequities in New York. You’re getting really close to understanding why progressives so zealously advocate for policies like ending stop and frisk and enacting bail reform, both meant to combat the unfair treatment Black New Yorkers face relative to their white peers.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwidj5d wrote
>You’re using two different measuring sticks.
>
>Black people in New York are safer than Black people in Jacksonville. White people in New York are safer than white people in Jacksonville.
You're the one using two measuring sticks: murder rate of blacks in Jacksonville and murder rate of whites in Jacksonville.
I'm only using one: the murder rate of any person in Jacksonville.
mission17 t1_iwiej9u wrote
> I'm only using one: the murder rate of any person in Jacksonville.
That’s literally not what you’re doing. You compared the rate of crime against exclusively Black people in New York to all people, Black or white, in Jacksonville:
> When taking into account that blacks/African-Americans accounts for 67.00% of the murder victims in NYC, but only 23.80% of the NYC population, it implies that a significant fraction of NYC is less safe than the typical person in Jacksonville
That is not an apples to apples comparison at all, no matter how many times you attempt to make it out to be and no matter how many times you will surely copy and paste the same paragraph over and over in the next week. You will be called out for the bullshit every time.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwig7hr wrote
How about an analogy:
To enter a ride in an amusement park, a child needs to be taller than the measuring stick, otherwise they may get injured.
What we have today:
- Two measuring sticks, one for blacks and one for whites.
- As a result, many blacks kids are getting injured compared to white kids, because the measuring stick for blacks is broken.
My argument is: we shouldn't have two measuring ticks. Just one that is safe for everyone equaly.
Your argument: the amusement park across the street also has a broken black measuring stick, and it's even more broken!
mission17 t1_iwih2un wrote
I cannot believe I'm going to engage with this stupid and bad-faith analogy, but alas.
We know that Black people face worse conditions when it comes to being victims of crime everywhere. But you're using evidence of Black people in New York facing more crime than a group including non-Black people in Jacksonville as evidence that New York is less safe. That's just not true. Because you should either be comparing solely Black people in the two cities or all people in both. Comparing one metric to the other just makes no sense.
In your analogy, what you're doing is comparing the rate of accidents involving just children in New York to the rate of accidents involving both children and adults in Jacksonville. That simply makes no sense.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwij2db wrote
>In your analogy, what you're doing is comparing the rate of accidents involving just children in New York to the rate of accidents involving both children and adults in Jacksonville. That simply makes no sense.
What separates children and adults is not the color on their skin.
There's obviously a historical disparity in victimizations based on the skin color. We all know of that.
Do you think such historical disparity is a good (ethical/moral) argument to continue using two separate measuring sticks?
I suggest you reflect on that for a minute.
mission17 t1_iwijbtk wrote
> There's obviously a historical disparity in victimizations based on the skin color.
Yes, but there is absolutely no historical discrepancy I'm aware of when it comes to rollercoaster safety based on race. You're being ridiculous.
> Do you think such historical disparity is a good (ethical/moral) argument to continue using two separate measuring sticks?
...you're the one who broke the measuring sticks in the first place! You are the one who cherry-picked exclusively Black people in New York and compared them to a group including Black and non-Black people in Florida. Why weren't you using the same measuring stick in both instances?
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwinse2 wrote
>...you're the one who broke the measuring sticks in the first place! You are the one who cherry-picked exclusively Black people in New York and compared them to a group including Black and non-Black people in Florida. Why weren't you using the same measuring stick in both instances?
I'll try one last time.
There are 4 numbers here:
- Overall murder rate in NYC.
- Overall murder rate in Jacksonville.
- Murder rate of Blacks in NYC.
- Murder rate of Blacks in Jacksonville.
I'm claiming that the fact that the "Overall murder rate in NYC" is lower than the "Overall murder rate in Jacksonville" should not be used to dismiss crime concerns.
I'm supporting that claim with the fact that there's at least one segment of the population in NYC that does not enjoy that standard, namely, "Murder rate of Blacks in NYC" is worse than "overall murder rate in Jacksonville".
You're claiming that "Murder rate of Blacks in NYC" should really be compared to "Murder rate of Blacks in Jacksonville" instead. Is it your conclusion that this comparison can be used to dismiss crime concerns?
mission17 t1_iwiqctm wrote
Okay, /u/NetQuarterLatte. Now do the inverse for a holistic understanding here. What is the murder rate of Black people in Jacksonville relative to the overall murder rate in New York. You are going to find what we already know, that Black Americans have it worse off everywhere.
You’re making the arguments of progressives for them, that intense efforts should be made to reduce racial inequities. Now it’s time for you to do the heavy lifting and actually advocate for the policies that are demonstrated to do this.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwiwdep wrote
>Now it’s time for you to do the heavy lifting and actually advocate for the policies that are demonstrated to do this.
Alright, now that we established that there's a valid concern about crimes in NYC, I think that's where most people would inject some fear-mongering comment against "tough-on-crime". But thank you for not doing that.
What policies do you believe have been demonstrated to reduce crime victimization? Given that we are talking about the disparity of victimization here.
mission17 t1_iwixm5p wrote
Glad you totally ignored the entire point of our conversation and pivoted upon realization that your stats didn’t say what you purported them to say at all.
> Alright, now that we established that there's a valid concern about crimes in NYC
I think now would be an appropriate time to apologize for lying about what your statistics said.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwiyb22 wrote
​
>Glad you totally ignored the entire point of our conversation and pivoted upon realization that your stats didn’t say what you purported them to say at all....
>
>I think now would be an appropriate time to apologize for lying about what your statistics said.
Are you saying that "concerns about crimes shouldn't be dismissed" is a lie?
>Now it’s time for you to do the heavy lifting and actually advocate for the policies that are demonstrated to do this.
I'll ask again: what policies do you believe have been demonstrated to reduce crime victimization?
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwidakw wrote
>Black New Yorkers face relative to their white peers.
- 15.3 blacks murdered per 100,000 blacks in NYC
- 0.8 whites murdered per 100,000 whites in NYC
mission17 t1_iwidmrw wrote
Congratulations, you discovered institutional racism! Progressives have been talking about this for well over a century to constant conservative denialism. Now let’s work together on the progressive policies that have been proven to reduce these inequities instead of the “tough-on-crime” policies that exacerbate them?
NetQuarterLatte t1_iwifken wrote
You're pretty deep into the fear-mongering rhetoric against the return of "tough-on-crime". Not what I've been advocating.
I think you know how a person sounds from the outside when their mind is wrapped by fear-mongering of crimes. I wish you could see how you sound.
mission17 t1_iwifwbb wrote
You know everyone else can peep into your comments and realize you’re full of shit, right? Like, when you lie, people can see everything you post and realize that you’re being dishonest? This website is anonymous, but when you comment incessantly, people can discern pretty clearly what you stand for.
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments