mortgagepants t1_j5up5gq wrote
Reply to comment by User_Name13 in Philadelphia juvenile street gang linked to thefts of nearly 100 firearms from Pennsylvania gun stores by TreeMac12
the solution isn't to charge the 16 year old as an adult, the solution is to punish the buyers. some people like to steal, but most people steal for monetary gain. if they don't get any money for it, it will stop.
TrentonMakes t1_j5urp9m wrote
No, charging as an adult is a pretty good solution in this scenario.
Glystopher t1_j5usix2 wrote
Agree…. Also it looks like not only the guys are involved but now the girls are too? Possibly someone’s whole family. Angel looks like the matriarch of the thing, after all she was running a daycare. (See other link ITT about PPP loan funds)
mortgagepants t1_j5uv4d1 wrote
ok- 7 years. just be careful, because when you start demanding maximum sentences, make sure you know you're subject to them too.
GooFoYouPal t1_j5uyxde wrote
lol, I’ll take my chances…
mortgagepants t1_j5v0va9 wrote
ok. you ever make a mistake on your taxes? felony tax evasion $100,000 penalty and 5 years in jail.
i'm sure you don't mind taking your chances when it is other people getting locked up, but it probably seems a little different for you huh?
GooFoYouPal t1_j5v27fu wrote
Bro, ppl that make “mistakes” on their taxes don’t get locked up for 5 years lol, BELIEVE me. I know that doesn’t fit your narrative and all…
mortgagepants t1_j5v2xwh wrote
lol you just made my point for me. thank you for understanding.
GooFoYouPal t1_j5v3po4 wrote
Yeah, I get what you’re saying, but cmon man, you’re being pedantic, comparing a mistake on one’s taxes to knowingly participating in a criminal enterprise seeking to flood an already extremely distressed city with even more gun violence. Like, seriously.
mortgagepants t1_j5v55gd wrote
i was actually referring to stealing cars in this case. but more broadly to giving out the maximum penalty for everything. like some people are gonna get leeway, understanding, exception to the rule, while some 16 year old kid is gonna get locked up for 7 years for a fucking kia.
the gun thing is a serious issue, and whoever is buying or inducing these kids into this needs to really be punished for sure.
GooFoYouPal t1_j5vj0uf wrote
I realize this might blow your mind, but have you EVER considered that there is no arch-criminal/ Keyser Soze type “buying” or “inducing” them to do shit. They are fully aware that stealing peoples shit at gunpoint is wrong and carries consequences, everywhere except here anyway, and YET, they still, somehow, make the decision to do it anyway.
mortgagepants t1_j5ymtdp wrote
have you ever considered they're broke, hungry, bored, abused?
GooFoYouPal t1_j5z8z44 wrote
JFC
mortgagepants t1_j5zlmbf wrote
i guess not man. every 16 year old in the city who commits a crime is doing it for pure violence and malice.
Theachillesheel t1_j5xks7f wrote
We just making false equivalences now huh
mortgagepants t1_j5ync8t wrote
lol no- we're making equal equivalancies. OP said they should get max time for their crimes. i'm just trying to show you giving everyone the maximum might come back to bite them.
Theachillesheel t1_j5ypfr8 wrote
No because a mistake on your taxes isn’t a crime. It never was. Out of college, I worked for an accounting firm and people made mistakes on their tax returns all the time. All they got was a call or mail from the IRS asking for a correction. You’re exaggerating like shit just to make a point. A mistake on your tax return is not the same (and never will be) the same as theft. You’re literally comparing apples to oranges.
mortgagepants t1_j5ypvbv wrote
if it is a mistake then fine. how about you paid the baby sitter over $600 this year without a W9? maybe you used the company card to fill your tank before going on vacation?
you're sitting here telling me 16 year old kids should go to jail for grand theft auto for 7 years...okay- are we going to start requesting the maximum penalty for all law breakers all the time? because everybody is fine with maximum sentencing until they make a mistake.
Theachillesheel t1_j5yrz5f wrote
Now you’re moving goalposts. Here’s how it goes after working with the IRS over a hundred times.. the IRS asks for a simple explanation, an amendment and even offers payment plans. Idk where people get these grand delusions that the IRS are impossible to work with and will smack felonies on you for the smallest things. They’re way more cooperative than the police.
And also I didn’t sit here and tell you anything. Now you’re getting lost in all your arguments and stirring shit with the wrong commenters. I just called you out on a poor comparison. Also, why would I even bother making my case with you anyway? You’re not here to see anyone else’s point of view, you’re just here to keep pushing your own ideas until someone agrees with you as evidenced by your dozens of comments that all say the same thing over and over.
mortgagepants t1_j5yso7f wrote
> Here’s how it goes after working with the IRS over a hundred times.. the IRS asks for a simple explanation, an amendment and even offers payment plans. Idk where people get these grand delusions that the IRS are impossible to work with and will smack felonies on you for the smallest things. They’re way more cooperative than the police.
this is exactly my point- people want to punish the fuck out of teens who make mistakes, but their own mistakes are "no big deal". but why are they willing to come down so hard on other people? for what reasons do people think their own mistakes are minor and can be negotiated, but when a child makes a mistake, they deserve to get punished as severely as an adult?
the point i'm making isn't about the IRS- the point i'm making is people feel so comfortable throwing the book at other people, but if someone tries to throw the book back, then we should really be looking at extenuating circumstances, exceptions to the rules, "a simple explanation".
Theachillesheel t1_j5z0x21 wrote
Look man I get your point but it’s still a false equivalence. The IRS is still a federal agency where people are mandated to submit their incomes. Are there people who try to fuck the system here and there? Sure. Are there people who make mistakes? Plenty. Comparing teenage burglary and theft is not equivalent to tax evasion for a couple main reasons you keep glaring over. Filing taxes is mandated and does not put anyone in physical harms way. Teens are not mandated to do shit but go to school. So when a child makes a mistake like you say, are you recognizing that they’re ruining a specific person’s life either physically or mentally? Because the IRS will make you pay your missed taxes.. how will a teenager that sold that car ever be able to payback the full value of that person’s car? Especially if there are things of sentimental value in it. Insurance never replaces full value and now your rates go up for no fucking reason other than because a teenager wanted some fast money without working. So where are their explanations? Can they simply explain to the courts they just made a mistake? Can they undo all of the physical and mental stress put onto the victims with an apology? Nope.
In this thread, you’ve made a point that they’re just teenagers but also throw people under the bus for their choices. You say something along the lines of people having their shitty Kia stolen but you never then look at the person who works low wages and spent years of their life to purchase that car only for a teenager to steal it and sell it off to whole sale purchasers. (Most which are from West Africa, so how can we even punish those illegal buyers? They’re off the radar) I’ve seen multiple people in this thread mention that they get your point of view yet you have not done the same for others. One of these kids can destroy someone’s livelihood but you fail immensely to understand that. This is why policy is so difficult.. because theres people who genuinely get hurt from things like this and can’t recover and then there’s you.. who argue for the teenagers who you never know will even be repeat offenders because they knew they would never be punished for committing crimes. I don’t know if you’ve ever been a victim to a crime like this, but it changes your views once you do experience it.
TrentonMakes t1_j5v08ct wrote
I’m not burglarizing gun stores then having said stolen guns tied to shootings so I’ll be ok
mortgagepants t1_j5v17ui wrote
as i said to somebody else, if you make a mistake on your taxes the maximum penalty is $100,000 fine and 5 years in prison.
i'd also like to point out the sheriff's department stole two guns. let me know when you want them tried as adults too.
TreeMac12 OP t1_j5v1tr7 wrote
> let me know when you want them tried as adults too
You can do that today.
mortgagepants t1_j5v31rl wrote
i can't charge the sheriff's department.
User_Name13 t1_j5usbik wrote
> if they don't get any money for it, it will stop.
This is completely wrong.
People are stealing cars for joyrides so they get social media clout.
There's literally a TikTok social media challenge about stealing Kia's and Hyundai's for shits and giggles:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/08/tiktok-challenge-spurs-rise-in-thefts-of-kia-hyundai-cars.html
People commit crimes for clout all the time.
It's normal.
The only thing you can do to discourage anti-social, violent behavior like this is enact stiff sentences for offenders.
We've been doing the exact opposite of that in Philly since about ... 2018, when Krasner took over as DA.
mortgagepants t1_j5uus2c wrote
lol stiff sentences don't do shit for people stealing cars for fun.
if more policing was the key to stopping crime, our $750 million per year would make us one of the safest cities per capita in the country.
User_Name13 t1_j5uz0rj wrote
>lol stiff sentences don't do shit for people stealing cars for fun.
Uh, ... actually they do.
They provide harsh punishment for committing a given crime, thereby disincentivizing that activity.
When you remove the penalty for committing a crime, more people are going to commit that crime.
It's not exactly rocket science.
>if more policing was the key to stopping crime, our $750 million per year would make us one of the safest cities per capita in the country.
Stiff sentences.
The police don't charge and sentence criminals, that's Krasner, our DA who loves treating criminals with kid gloves. Judges are the ones who issue sentences.
mortgagepants t1_j5v05qw wrote
lol i was waiting to see some criminology statistics and shit. your compelling argument is "its not rocket science."
read a fucking book.
User_Name13 t1_j5v15m5 wrote
https://www.city-journal.org/why-incarceration-matters
FTA:
"The United States Sentencing Commission, using its access to massive amounts of data about thousands of federal criminal defendants over many decades, decided to test the effects of incarceration on recidivism. The commission chose to study 32,135 federal criminal defendants released in 2010. The study divided the defendants into five groups based on length of sentence: 24–36 months, 36–48 months, 48–60 months, 60–120 months, and more than 120 months. The commission then checked to see which of the released defendants committed new crimes during an eight-year follow-up period."
"The results were compelling. For defendants receiving a sentence of more than 60 months (five years), the odds of recidivism were 18 percent lower than a matched group of prisoners receiving shorter sentences. For defendants with sentences of more than 120 months (ten years), the odds of recidivism were 29 percent lower. These conclusions were statistically significant at p<0.001—a statistical measure that shows profound reliability. No statistically significant difference in recidivism was found for defendants serving less than 60 months."
"Contrary to current academic thinking, then, the length of a criminal’s sentence matters quite a bit in reducing future offending. Why are these findings so important? First, because they offer a stern rebuttal to the academic literature downplaying the effect of lengthy sentences; the commission even devotes an entire section of its report to assessing these studies. But perhaps more importantly, the commission’s findings are a blow to progressive prosecutors, who have been relying on flawed academic literature to push for lower sentences for just about every crime, even violent ones, claiming that reduced sentences will not cause more crime. One of the main proponents of this philosophy is Philadelphia district attorney Larry Krasner, who specifically criticized sentences longer than five years, promised that crime would drop if he avoided lengthy sentences, and scoffed at law enforcement officials who warned him of the consequences if he enacted his policies. Krasner delivered on his promises, dropping murder charges even in the case of video evidence and handing out lenient sentences. The predictable result: violent criminals have overrun Philadelphia, with murder soaring to an all-time record and police officers shot during a Fourth of July celebration."
>read a fucking book.
No need to be rude. We're having a discussion about policy, it's better to leave emotion out of it.
mortgagepants t1_j5v2rvp wrote
ah ok- you tell me it isn't rocket science that is fine, but me telling you to read a book hurts your feelings.
then, you link me a blog post written by a previous DA that now works at the manhattan institute, a conservative lobbying group most famous for promoting the "broken windows" ideology, that essentially removed 4th amendment rights from anyone police didn't like. they're also funded by the koch brothers, who are infamous for their family ties to nazi germany, soviet russia, reducing worker's rights, and disregard for environmental protections.
i can't tell if you actually believe this stuff, or you're just doing some kind of PR for the FOP.
User_Name13 t1_j5v3quf wrote
>but me telling you to read a book hurts your feelings.
Telling someone to "read a fucking book" is absolutely an insult.
You don't have anything to say about the findings of the study?
You're just going to attack the source?
Why don't you address the findings of the study?
Would that not be convenient to your narrative?
>or you're just doing some kind of PR for the FOP.
Nice, another insult.
It sounds like you don't have any actual points to make, you're just lobbing insults at people.
mortgagepants t1_j5v4syq wrote
telling me it isn't rocket science is an insult as well. and yeah, since i dont have time to run my own experiment, i absolutely have to criticize the biased source.
he even writes "contrary to prevailing wisdom" or some such...meaning there are many studies refuting his idea.
also, how or to whom is PR for the FOP an insult?
FasterThanTW t1_j5veo5m wrote
Lol, never fails. Always one dh in here caping for the criminals.
mortgagepants t1_j5vft9r wrote
16 year olds are kids. there is a reason we don't let them do adult shit, because they don't have fully developed brains. you want to let them drink, buy weed, drive cars, buy guns, vote, and join the army? fine, they're adults at 16.
you want to prohibit them from all that shit but then try them as adults because your shitty kia got stolen and the cops aren't doing shit to protect you from it, but you wont stand up to the cops, so you want to lock up a 16 year old? not ok.
FasterThanTW t1_j5wbfzw wrote
>16 year olds are kids. there is a reason we don't let them do adult shit, because they don't have fully developed brains. you want to let them drink, buy weed, drive cars, buy guns, vote, and join the army? fine, they're adults at 16.
Nope, I want to lock them up for doing that stuff.
Their parents too.
mortgagepants t1_j5yn0u8 wrote
lol do you have kids?
FasterThanTW t1_j5yr79n wrote
"unless you have kids, you just can't imagine how hard it is to raise them so that they don't go out in the middle of the night to break into gun stores over and over!"
mortgagepants t1_j5yrdx7 wrote
i mean i dont have kids either. but kids do stupid stuff, you really want to hold the parents responsible for everything they do? or just the egregious shit like robbing gun stores and stealing cars?
FasterThanTW t1_j5yroaw wrote
everything illegal.
i would lock you up too, for what it's worth. caping for criminals? straight to jail.
mortgagepants t1_j5yt0e8 wrote
hahah yeah fuck the 6th amendment! In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
also, fuck my first amendment too, right? you should head down to 5th and chestnut and check out the building there, it is full of these old documents.
FasterThanTW t1_j5ytf79 wrote
oop, you just got a year added to your sentence
mortgagepants t1_j5ywb7c wrote
philadelphia phascists gotta be some of the most messed up...the birthplace of the bill of rights.
ferrusmannusbannus t1_j5vz4ls wrote
Bro theres a dif between kids being kids and robbing and trafficking firearms lmao. I did dumb shit as a kid, fights, vandalism, graffiti. Thats stupid kid shit. At 16 you know better than to rob a gun store
mortgagepants t1_j5yn3nb wrote
i agree. the gun store robbery shit is bad, but you think they're keeping the guns?
TreeMac12 OP t1_j5ypt6d wrote
>the solution isn't to charge the 16 year old as an adult, the solution is to punish the buyers.
Why not both?
mortgagepants t1_j5yq0w2 wrote
because we as a society have decided 16 year olds are not full adults, so they're not held to the full consequences of their actions the way adults are.
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