Paparddeli t1_j6ar4xs wrote
I think that your point is that fare evasion is a big deal and it's screwing the system out of much-needed revenue that could provide more frequent service, which in turn would draw in more riders to fund better service, and then you'd create a virtuous cycle of increasingly better transit.
I don't know if I just wasn't paying attention before, but fare evasion seems much more common on the BSL and MFL now than before the pandemic. I'm all for discount monthly passes for people who have EBT cards or who qualify for the earned income tax credit (or some low income threshold), but I don't think that we should completely turn a blind eye towards fare evasion like we are doing now. The free transit movement also doesn't make much sense for a cash-strapped system like our own. Making sure people pay to get onto the system would also keep out some of the homeless/panhandlers/drug users who are making the system, quite frankly, revolting for the current paying customers. I think higher gate-style turnstiles are pretty common on European transit systems.
BearFromPhilly t1_j6ayczj wrote
My interpretation was that the kind of narcissist who is going to hop the gate is more prone to anti-social behavior overall.
YMMV.
PhillyAccount t1_j6av8d1 wrote
Fare evasion is an issue on every major transit system right now. It does seem however like SEPTA has ceded the El and BSL to the dirtbags.
Vague_Disclosure t1_j6bciqw wrote
just because something is an issue everywhere doesn't mean septa can't take steps to mitigate it
PhillyAccount t1_j6dsulf wrote
Im suggesting that septa doesn't even have a response, compared to other agencies who have at least identified it as an issue.
Paparddeli t1_j6ay0ng wrote
MTA in NYC estimated that fare evasion has tripled in recent years and that they are losing $500 million a year. It certainly has to be tens of millions of dollars here. You are never going to eliminate it completely, but getting that number down significantly could have a big effect.
mikebailey t1_j6bt9lz wrote
SEPTA also has some more advanced forms of evasion e.g. selling key swipes and transfers because they cool off differently than MTA etc
DeltaNerd t1_j6dqeky wrote
The whole sit around and do nothing is not an answer. At this rate there is going to have to be some type of unpopular decision to keep them off the system and maybe get them into treatment
Your_next_employee t1_j6grr5a wrote
Not all public transit systems collect a fare.
apathy2 t1_j6dtpot wrote
> I think higher gate-style turnstiles are pretty common on European transit systems.
Different places have different systems but many places in Europe operate on the honor system. There will be ticket purchase machines at the entrance or on the platform and nothing preventing you from getting on the train. However, they have random ticket inspectors and if you don't have a ticket, you pay a very expensive fine.
So, it's quick and easy for everyone to get on and off and there is a large enough potential penalty that it's not worth it for the vast majority of people to try to skip out on.
Paparddeli t1_j6du93s wrote
I've been on light rail like that, but I don't think I've ever seen a metro system with ticket inspectors though. I would be fine with that kind of system on our regional rail. Our system is kind of already set up for it. Maybe even buses and trolleys if we have a redesign. But we'd need to actually have the inspectors and enforce the fines.
kelopons t1_j6ldbml wrote
Central Europe allows you to use public transportation without checking your tickets (Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia) but in places like Hungary you WILL find random people checking your tickets at any point. Usually once the train leaves and if you were not honest with your subway ride, be ready to pay a good fine.
[deleted] t1_j6ch0an wrote
[removed]
atheken t1_j6dbwnb wrote
It should cost $0 to ride SEPTA.
The city profits through increased economic activity, but this is not easy to measure, especially not by SEPTA.
Some of the funding that goes into maintaining roads should go to reducing volume/wear on those roads (i.e. get more traffic off of the roads).
I don't think that enforcing a nominal fare would help with the homeless/drug issue at all. Look at the corridor to the PATCO from Walnut-Locust - that's "public space" and doesn't require a fare to get in.
Perhaps just deciding that a place to sleep, shit, and shower is a human right would go further than trying to lock people out of train stations.
Paparddeli t1_j6dshyk wrote
> The city profits through increased economic activity, but this is not easy to measure, especially not by SEPTA.
People won't take public transit if it isn't safe and not too unpleasant. So by keeping the system and unsafe, you lose people who are going to take transit into the center city to shop or see an event. They may end up driving to a suburban mall or movie theater instead.
> Some of the funding that goes into maintaining roads should go to reducing volume/wear on those roads (i.e. get more traffic off of the roads).
Yes, I agree. But I'd like to see riders chip in some money too. More importantly, I think legislators are more prone to fully fund the system if it isn't free for everyone.
> I don't think that enforcing a nominal fare would help with the homeless/drug issue at all. Look at the corridor to the PATCO from Walnut-Locust - that's "public space" and doesn't require a fare to get in.
We certainly could kick homeless people out of transit stations/public corridors when they set up camp, but someone (surely not someone who commutes on public transit everyday) made a decision not to for whatever reason. Assuming we have the resources, it wouldn't be that hard to chase the vast majority of people who aren't using the system away. I'm not advocating for harsh methods at all, but I do think we should put up some more barriers to having homeless kept out.
ThreePointsPhilly t1_j6aw841 wrote
We should make it free, full stop.
The fact that un-housed people and people with mental health and drug addiction issues are “making SEPTA bad” isn’t SEPTA’s failure. It’s society’s failure. Even if you did all of this…these individuals are still going to ride the subway and buses and regional rail. People will find a way to use SEPTA. So the question is; what are we going to do to help these people? The issue isn’t enforcing fares. The issue runs deeper than SEPTA. SEPTA can’t fix this and enforcing fares isn’t going to either.
Make SEPTA free because there are other benefits. We should be looking at what Boston did with their pilot program. We should be investing in alternative modes of transportation that aren’t cars. We should make driving more expensive. But in the meantime, we should make SEPTA 100% free because it benefits a heck of a lot of people.
Paparddeli t1_j6axi31 wrote
>we should make SEPTA 100% free because it benefits a heck of a lot of people.
My perspective is that we should make SEPTA cleaner, safer, and more frequent because THAT would benefit a heck of a lot of people. Yes, it's a tradeoff, but it's a tradeoff pretty much every good transit system overseas makes.
If we had low crime and tons of police officers to patrol the system, maybe free transit would be okay. But that just isn't realistic. And the choice isn't--or at least shouldn't have to be--let the people with mental health and drug addition issues ride around transit or don't help them at all. We could do more to take care of those people in other ways and I'm not sure how we're really helping them anyway by letting them sleep or use drugs on the train.
ThreePointsPhilly t1_j6ay5hl wrote
We do have transit police.
The choice could be, stop spending money on enforcing fairs (how much diD SEPTA KEY cost?) and hire social workers and actually try to help people? Do outreach to these individuals and get them help, if they choose to take it.
Honestly, here’s what I don’t get. I could pay to get on the BSL right now and ride it for hours right? What’s stopping me from doing that?
Scumandvillany t1_j6bnm1k wrote
It is not septa's responsibility to do mental health work.
Paparddeli t1_j6ayxhg wrote
Our numbers of police and transit police specifically is way down following retirements and mediocre recruiting. I pretty much never see them when I ride. And I think they've basically backed off completely in enforcing fare evasion, smoking on the platforms and in the cars and drug use. The SEPTA police chief quit recently, maybe over that issue.
I'm certainly in favor of hiring social workers, but I don't think transit stations/cars should be the place for really making an intervention in people's lives (maybe the homeless outreach place at Suburban Station, but otherwise, no).
ThreePointsPhilly t1_j6b0h3u wrote
So people are riding for free now. And transit police don’t do anything.
Sounds like we need drastic change, not more of the same. Because the current system clearly isn’t working. So how do you propose making it cleaner and safer under the current system? Rely on the same Transit cops and unsuccessful solutions in place and…hope for the best?
UndercoverPhilly t1_j6bdvr5 wrote
The police are MIA so we can't rely on them.
Free rides for everyone will not work because those that are making the rides uncomfortable for a lot of people will still be on there. Even if it is free I'm not riding it while junkies reign free and the rest of the anti-social behavior and misdemeanors are happening on the BSL or MFL. I'd rather walk or take the bus and I don't need to see or experience all that negativity if I can help it.
ThreePointsPhilly t1_j6bgldb wrote
So what’s the solution? Just make it harder to pay? That doesn’t work either. It’s not working now. People in this thread admit it doesn’t work.
So what’s the solution? It’s not lock people up willy nilly either.
UndercoverPhilly t1_j6bi2la wrote
Eventually they are going to get locked up. The more violence and anti-social behaviors that occur, the less sympathy there will be for them. I don't think we are at a point in the USA in which society is going to turn around and embrace a new kind of way to deal with breaking the law or in which the American people are going to change from being individualist, you are on your own, to "it takes a village," in the next 5-10 years. We've seen a multitude of mass shootings, even of children and nobody has done ANYTHING to help, other than train children and teachers to hide. If we aren't willing to protect our own children from being gunned down, we aren't going to help a junkie who is harassing people, shooting up or engaging in other anti-social behavior on public transportation.
I could be wrong, and I'd be happy if I were and something is developed that changes things for the better. I think it is more likely that the pendulum will swing in the other direction and there will be a harder crack down on violent crime and the petty crimes as well.
ThreePointsPhilly t1_j6biqsw wrote
Well that’s a depressing and heartbreaking mentality. The solution to jumping the turnstile will be…hard time? Come on.
UndercoverPhilly t1_j6bk1sb wrote
Not necessarily for jumping the turnstile but for those people who are smoking, doing drugs, etc.on the subways and otherwise involved with criminal activity if the pendulum swings the other way (anti-crime) with leadership in the next generation. The system will probably close down (due to bankruptcy, low ridership) before there is anti-crime leadership. My point is that if we wanted a different way of life in the USA, we'd have it. Most people care about themselves (and maybe their immediate family) and that's it. I don't see that changing in at least a generation.
douglas_in_philly t1_j6fjskk wrote
Unfortunately the idealistic solution is the most difficult to implement, and will almost certainly take the longest to show results. The vast majority of people who want to ride on SEPTA are not deranged with mental illness, nor are they high-as-a-kite junkies. But because there are enough of those people who are on SEPTA, many people are choosing not to use the system, and that will cause it to fail, and then everyone loses—including the turnstile jumpers.
You can propose your solution, others will propose theirs. The one that wins wins. Unfortunately, while most people are very sympathetic, they’re also realistic and pragmatic, and they’re not going to put other people’s problems in front of their own desire for a pleasant life. Is that good? Is it right? Unfortunately, that doesn’t matter, because it’s the way it is. I’m not saying don’t speak up and fight for it to be some other way, but if you don’t realize that this is the reality, it’s going to make your fight for idealism a lot more difficult.
At least that’s my opinion as someone who also believes in fighting for idealistic changes in our world.
DeltaNerd t1_j6c2ib0 wrote
Frankly I don't see the current benefit now. The homeless should not be using Septa as a place to live. Unfortunately making Septa free will lead to decrease service. Also people are already hoping the fare gates now. No enforcement right now.
Let's be real here when is the last time you rode on the MFL at night and felt safe? I have ridden at night a few times and its getting worse every time I ride at night
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments