Abstract: An important recent distinction in the empirical literature about self-control is between resisting and avoiding temptations.

While we have some evidence that avoiding temptations is the more efficient method of the two, philosophers have focused almost exclusively on resisting temptations.

The aim of this talk is to examine what the ability to avoid temptations depends on and argue that it depends primarily on how fragmented one’s mind is: on the inconsistencies in one’s mental setup.

The fragmentation of mind requires a significant amount of mental effort to conceal from oneself and this leads to a weakened ability to resist temptations.

So they are saying to accept the fragmentation would make you a stronger person?

I don't understand what they mean. All people are conflicted and self contradicting. So in that sense there is always fragmentation. If they don't mean that, then what?

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"That marshmallow experiment he mentioned failed replication. The effect disappears when you account for whether the child's mother has a college degree. https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/marshmallow-test/561779/
So if the marshmallow study actually does measure the ability to avoid temptation, then it suggests that our ability to avoid temptation is a function of our socio-economic back-ground and/or the behaviors of our parents. So it doesn't bode well for our ability to improve temptation avoidance as adults." - Gregory Bogosian; Comment posted on OP's link

It’s not doing away with fragmentation, but a way to reduce it in hopes of reducing the temptations that conflict our self-image. He proposes to decrease the value we place on a fixed self-image as a means to reduce fragmentation of the mind. If I hold firm to the belief that “I am a vegetarian” but I consistently feel tempted to eat meat, the fragmentation caused by that dichotomy further fuels to temptation to eat meat. But if I step back and accept that maybe my belief in being a vegetarian isn’t as fundamental as I taught myself to believe, the fragmentation and subsequent temptation of eating meat diminishes.

Accept that your self image might not be as finite as you think, and the fragmentation and subsequent temptations decrease.

I see. In psychodynamic language this would fall under defenses, such as splitting and denial. I want to deny negative qualities in myself, or aggression for example, so I do something unconsciously to make myself think I’m just good and for instance other people are bad (non vegetarians). Defenses almost always lead to problems. So this isn’t really new.

You will avoid if you can, you won't if you can't. Just try your best (truthfully).

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Not be as finite? But, still finite? What do you mean exactly by saying this.

Pulling from the video; he says the most people feel as if their current self-image is how they will be forever, despite the multitude of changes that they went through up to that point. The reality is that we will continue to change based on new experiences and input, and accepting that fact vs. holding steadfast to your current beliefs helps to reduce fragmentation in the mind.

Oh! a growth mindset?

Growth and acceptance to reduce fragmentation while being aware to avoid temptations seemed to be the theme, yeah

My friend is a Buddhist monk and practices a lot of meditation. He said to me, there is a reason that demons are often portrayed as having many heads, and gods are often portrayed as having many hands.

The purity of heart is to will one thing.

What if you don’t want to resist? I only resist eating unhealthy things, but am otherwise down for funtimes. Essentially if it doesn’t hurt anyone I will enjoy myself.

I'm surprised to not yet see the term cognitive dissonance in the comment chain at all, because that's basically what the author of this article means by "fragmentation". It sounds like he's saying that cognitive dissonance is stressful, and stress increases the likelihood of giving into temptation, in an attempt to relieve stress. This seems pretty simple and sensible to me. Cognitive dissonance is really a form of double bind: "I can't (or shouldn't) but I must." And double binds are the wellspring of stress, according to every good psychologist I've spoken with. They're not entirely avoidable, but they can be kept to a tolerable minimum.

I'm pretty sure this is why the Serenity Prayer is so central to the Twelve Step programs — it's an attempt to reduce the cognitive dissonance and double binds that tend to underly addiction in the first place.

I cite the above with much trepidation, because I'm well aware of how despicable the Twelve Step programs are to the majority of Redditors. I'm not saying I necessarily endorse them. I think they work for some people in some situations, but definitely not all. I'm just making a point about the rationale behind one of their most popular mantras.

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Well if you don’t want to resist then it’s fine because you’re not holding yourself in a state of dissonance. You do what you want. I think what they mean by resisting or avoiding temptation here is implying that what you’re tempted to do, you know is “bad”. If I am tempted to volunteer at a soup kitchen and I yield to this desire, most people would agree that this is a “good” action.

I'm also interested in hearing their response!

With context - I'm guessing that:

Demons have many heads Refers to a fractured mind and many competing thoughts/thought forms in ones mind leading to ineffective self-governence towards one's desired aims.

God's have many hands Refers to God's having more singular aim/focus. The hands then represent action/ability/power in the sense that more hands means more can be accomplished. Many hands make light work.

Could be wrong though and hoping they can clarify for us! 🙂

> suggests that our ability to avoid temptation is a function of our socio-economic back-ground and/or the behaviors of our parents

> So it doesn't bode well for our ability to improve temptation avoidance as adults

I don't understand why this is the case. Our lives and behaviour as adults are significantly different to when we were children.

But how does this lead to being able to better resist temptation? Like say I have a problem with getting cravings late at night and ordering a ton of food that I shouldn't be eating. Am I supposed to start thinking "ordering a lot of food late at night isn't so bad, there's no reason I shouldn't do it." And that will ultimately lead me to doing this less?

So is this why so many devout religious folks often get caught doing something anathema to their declared beliefs? The idea that they are ‘righteous’ and can’t give in to temptation makes the temptation that much stronger.

Ahhh Temptation, the only thing you can’t resist..

why are you being downvoted this is the only comment i understand

Good question. Not sure if this answers it but it got me thinking.

If it's supposed to be a self acceptance thing is that what it means? To tell ourselves that it would be ok to do something we would otherwise try to not do because if your holding yourself back from doing something you think you shouldn't do but want to do ends up with you doing it anyway to relieve stress then you end up feeling worse and the cycle continues.

But if we change the mindset then your not holding yourself back anymore, which when you did almost always ended up with you eventually surging forward past your restraint and doing the thing your trying to resist in the first place. since your not holding yourself back then you also aren't fighting with yourself, preventing that cognitive dissonance and turning an attempt at resisting temptation to one of avoiding temptation, which is easier in the first place, because it's no longer a temptation.

I think it's all in his you see things. Paradigm shifts etc. Changing how you think and view things.

I think I'm understanding the theory. The more you're at odds with yourself on things, the more... weakened you are in general when it comes to making executive decisions. Even though it sounds counterintuitive to think that getting rid of self-imposed rules and restrictions will actually help you to better follow them.

An analogy that might fit here is trying to grab a pile of sand. The more you want to hold onto it and the tighter you clench, the more sand that ends up falling out ironically.

That is indeed what I was getting at. Thank you

My friend emphasised to us, when meditating we can practise including more elements in our attention. For example, you are repeating a mantra in your head. You repeat the sound. With each syllable, you focus on the meaning of the syllable. You also concentrate on the overall meaning of the mantra. Then you visualise the written mantra, feel the truth of it, and so on.

In this manner, the awareness is carefully directed, unified, and able to hold multiple objects.

So my son doesn't really like marshmallows and probably would only want one... so does that count as a fail?

I recommend watching the video but I'll try to explain, as it's not so cut-and-dry. He postulates that fragmentation within the mind makes it harder for us to avoid and resist temptations, because the effort of masking the parts of us that have been fragmented or compartmentalized, takes away from the effort required to combat the temptations. So reducing fragmentation allows more energy to be allocated towards avoiding and resisting the temptations.

The fragmentation is caused by you wanting the late-night food, but knowing that you shouldn't eat/order it. Your 'ideal' state is at odds with your 'desire' state, and the effort of that conflict makes it easier to ultimately succumb to the temptation. And after you succumb once, it's easier to do so each subsequent time you feel the temptation.

So it leaves in a conundrum where if we resist we're screwed due to further fragmentation, but also screwed if we yield to the temptations (and end up eating late-night junk food every night) because this too causes more fragmentation. So his thesis is 1. try to avoid the temptation altogether (i.e., go to bed before the late-night cravings hit), and 2. change your ideal state to be less at odds with your desire state - instead of beating yourself up about feeling the temptation, recognize that the ideal state is not fixed, and it in turn requires less effort within the mind to fragment those conflicting states, which leaves more energy for you to avoid and resist the temptations that still arise.

So it's a continuous process to reduce the existing fragmentation so that it in turn reduces the temptations you feel on a regular basis.

For me, it's relevant to my smoking habit. I know I shouldn't do it, and I feel a deep guilt and shame whenever I do. Yet I keep doing it (both due to chemical dependencies and the habit I've cultivated over the years) - the desire and disdain I feel simultaneously around the same action results in fragmentation. That guilt and shame from the fragmented sense of self (am I a smoker or am I not) leads me to want to smoke more (more fragmentation --> more temptation). Which then leads to more guilt. And the downward spiral continues.

He says, if you step back and recognize that a sense of self isn't so rigid, the fragmentation starts to break down. I don't have to feel bad about a temptation if I allow myself to be both a smoker and not a smoker vs. one over the other. Through introducing flexibility and forgiveness into my sense of self, the fragmentation and subsequent temptations seem to diminish. It's not a cure by any means, but it is a new perspective that I personally can see some value in adopting.

Fascinating considering my mind is about as fragmented as it gets yet I never give into temptation. I've always been very disciplined and very stubborn.

>Our lives and behaviour as adults are significantly different to when we were children.

One can see by the "u" in your 'behavior' (😎) an automatic indicator that how one is raised influences choices later in life.

It primarily depends on preexisting patterns of thought.

yeah exactly and this good action might still be bad for you because you have another commitment.

for many people saying yes is a very tempting thing

How one came to not have an “all in” mentality or pattern of behavior in response to their own thoughts and feelings is very relevant to this topic. Self-conditioning a new pattern of behavior in response to stimuli and then practicing it is how people can gain or lose mentalities.

As a child, I spelt the word differently. Then I moved to England and started intentionally spelling it the British way. I still live in Britain so I don't want to change that.

If I now decide to move to the US, I might decide to start spelling it the American way, and if I put in a little effort to change that habit I think I would be able to achieve that.

Personality, behaviour, habits etc... are not static. We're constantly shaped by our experiences in life. That includes- but is not limited to- the experiences we have early in life. But that doesn't say anything about our ability to change behaviour later in life.

Temptation to say yes is different than temptation to actually do something. If I feel pressured into volunteering my time but I actually don't want to, then if I do it, I will be in a state of dissonance. If I really want to volunteer my time, then I volunteer my time with no dissonance.

>Personality, behaviour, habits etc... are not static.

Correct, and please note that no one here said they are.

Simply put, childhood oft influences people well into and beyond adulthood. If you don't believe that, cool - you're not interested in that discussion.

No one is saying, or implying, that people can't change. So what's your point, precisely?

or openness paradoxically lessens fragmentation. Likely due to openness allowing for many more potential "cohesion moments" than would a closed system.

Travel can be a good time to gather your thoughts. Travel is sticky. People have written books about being on the road. Identity in movement, not so much state.

That's super interesting. Thank you

Bahahaha

> So what's your point, precisely?

The study measures ability to avoid temptation in children at one point in time, it doesn't measure how this ability changes over time. So it doesn't make sense to make any claim about an adult's ability to improve temptation avoidance, because the study doesn't measure that.

You could measure the ability to walk in a set of toddlers, but that doesn't imply that it doesn't bode well for our ability to walk as adults.

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I can imagine being too open would impede your ability to form coherent beliefs. Openness could also be called naive in the way you are explaining, it's important to use critical thinking so that you are not led astray.

Awesome

you might really want to and you might enjoy your time but you could still be really procrastinating some other thing you should do but don’t want to

>You could measure the ability to walk in a set of toddlers, but that doesn't imply that it doesn't bode well for our ability to walk as adults.

It would be irresponsible to ignore the possibility that the walking difficulty as a toddler might indicate an adjustment is needed so that it doesn't alter the individual as an adult.

You seem to be conflating an indicator for an absolute.

Obviously.... If you know exactly what you want, and you fully believe you can get it, why would you spend a single fraction of a second doing anything else? Why is so much modern scientific research just now discovering the shit we all already knew anyway? Shouldn't we be clarifying the difference between thought and reality or solving the ecological disasters or thinking up better legal/economic systems or SOMETHING that's actually useful for God's sake???

as someone with few inconsistencies and poor ability to resist temptations i disagree.

i fail to resist temptations because why should i resist them? if i want to drink, smoke, eat, fuck then i do.

ive been an addict, there was no inconsistencies there either ie i had no internal problem with the actions i was performing, no 'i shouldnt do this but i will' more ''i know this is 'bad' but i do not care, everything is 'bad' after all''

as to avoiding temptations theres no need, if i dont feel like doing x i will not (its how ive quit before, got over it so i stopped).

then again maybe im just better at self-control then most, i have no debts at 31 and im 57kg at 183cm.

>; he says the most people feel as if their current self-image is how they will be forever, despite the multitude of changes that they went through up to that point

how?

doesnt make any sense to me, obviously we are all different at different points in our lives, an unchanging person is effectively a dead person.

I know plenty of people who know exactly the type of character they are, and there’s absolutely no hesitation - no temptation - in acting as they do.

To be tempted depends on a degree of guilt, and hesitation depends on how confident (or not) the person is w/regards to the ‘unattractive’ deed...

...which, if exposed, reflects poorly on their fake ‘reputation’.

There are those who feel no guilt, no remorse, and who are overwhelmingly confident that they’ll not suffer any consequences by doing whatever they want.

Temptation is simply an experience - an id vs superego conflict observed by the ego - for those who haven’t the clearest idea of how to go about getting what they want without consequence.

Then there are those who don’t care about consequences, because they know themselves...

...to be or not to be: there is no question.

depends on what your temptations are.

i do what i want when i want to, its caused homelessness, addiction and a whole lot of experiences i wouldnt change for the world.

and yet im not stagnant or sad, ive lived with over 80 people in 4 different states (im Australian) ive done jobs across a dozen industries. now im 31 with no debts and im 57kg at 183cm and work my own business gardening (and literally no support at all, i dont talk to family).

ibe done all this by not resisting but by doing what i want (what i actually want to, not what society wants me to want. when i was young i wanted simple base pleasures, as ive gotten older my wants have changed to security and stability, skilled hobbies etc).

This one is making my mind go in circles and I'm struggling to summarize my point, so bear with me please.

I understand the cautious note, but at the same time, don't the times astray feed directly into creating critical thinking?

Without a single time astray all you can go off of is other people. At some point you would assume other people may not see a situation the same as you. How do you form that "you" without being fragmented?

And sorry if I misread yours.

>how fragmented one’s mind is

What does this mean?

I rarely do this because its a little gross, but judging by your comment history, you've been making comments on reddit for a few hours straight. Is that not giving into a temptation?

What I'm getting at is, what are you labeling as a temptation? Maybe I should read the article.

Well typically I refer to the labels given by the dictionary. No sense in using anything else. The real question is what you're using?

Ive met so many people who grew up poor and got into insane debt even with high income jobs.

Take the same jobs, but a person who grew up wealthy, no debt.

Theres definitely something to it either in terms of availability or resources, peer group, or something else.

It sucks that this is the study used to prop up the opinion. That study is so shit.

Interesting idea, anyway.

he cited some studies on it. Typically people look at the past 10 years and recognize all the ways they changed, but cannot extrapolate that into how they will continue to change in the future. It's an identity thing, like "this is who I am, of course I won't change"

Problem solved if you are s philosophical zombie: -Reverend Nagasena, what is the difference between the lustful man and the man free from lusts?

• My King, the man free of lusts experiences the taste only of the food. The lustful man experiences both the taste and the pleasure of the food.

>it's important to use critical thinking so that you are not led astray.

That is a closing move, though. Or can be. We need to better explore what openness does before we set up a watch over it.

A frictionless, permeable barrier would be madness. But movement with some level of surface coherence would, due to the openness introduced by the movement, naturally increase coherence or mitigate fragmentation. Again, paradoxically.

Imagine a surface with a number X of connections and/or connectors. These connections are with the surface itself (endogenic, reflection, or preoccupation I suppose too) and adventitious (exogenic, external). By movement [in the external] the potential connections multiply in proportion to how one (the surface) moves.

But, one can move the surface too fast to enable this virtuous tempo.

Additionally, there are many ways to move the surface. Many people find reading to be a mode by which connections are made bountiful. Others do not. Some find travel nourishing. But again, at a virtuous tempo.

EDIT: what the tempo is, is not universal, certainly. When and how to rest the surface -- to sleep -- varies in its meaning and operation in human societies, for example. I would expect a lot of variation, even at the individual level. Thank goodness for language. It gives us some semblance of a common timeline of "what's happening."

I think religious people probably do adhere to genuine beliefs and resist temptation more reliably than the general population, but it's easier to perceive the opposite because:

1. Those circumstances stand out more because the stark hypocrisy highlights the case as more significant. Teachers are one of the most likely demographic to commit sexual assault on a child, yet when a priest does it, even if it happens only a handful of times, it stands out as far more significant, even if it's less representative. (and every instance is an abominable tragedy)
2. While genuine belief confers stronger resistance to temptation, religious prevelence creates other cultural impacts that create incentives for those with disengeuous belief. If a republican candidate can make career strides by advocating traditional marriage and sexuality, then why not appeal to a Christian voter base while getting some action at the gay bar on the side?

I thought parents were by and large the greatest offenders when it came to child sexual assault and abuse not teachers.

It's not wrong to go astray, but to go astray and not reflect upon it would lead to repeated actions. There are many who are of the belief that practice makes perfect, I am of the belief that practice makes permanent. And so, if you repeatedly go astray you'll make a habit of it, instead of doing the right thing from the start. In the first place, these are all our perceptions, there is nothing which is right and wrong. So in an absolute nihilistic way of thinking we need to search within us to find what is right for you. In a human with proper upbringing this is often correlated with things which we view as positive values.

Ana-banana WHO?

I find it curious that you see it this way. There was a study done a few years ago on what makes a creative individual.. creative. They found that it was not intelligence, nor brain size that mattered, but the ability to make absolutely random connections in the brain, seemingly unnecessary connections. In that way, creative people would be able to come up with the most absurd ideas, but not necessarily have the ability to judge the viability of them. Maybe be need both, some people who are 'open' and others who are 'closed'.

Source?

This is the second time today I’ve seen someone use that word on Reddit. I feel like it’s going to be the new cool word to use for 2 weeks

Ok what did I miss?

This makes a lot of sense. In the Catholic philosophical tradition, intellectual activity is understood to be a discursive / categorical type of activity. One seeks to understand the world by breaking it up and putting it together in a logical sort. In fact, it’s also supposed to be extremely joyful activity, like reassembling a puzzle.

Aquinas was a statistically sensitive person. He didn’t see moral behavior as a matter of sheer will, but of mere probability. Based on my past experience and understand of reality, what is the probability that I will be tempted to steal if I am alone in a room with unguarded money? Higher than if I never enter the room.

It may sound “weak” to avoid temptation, but we don’t think that way about other dangers. You’re not “weak” for keeping fire far from gasoline. You’re not “weak” for diversifying investments to decrease risk. You’re smart! The wise people are those who can read the signs of trouble and get out before there’s a chance to fall down.

jung wrote a lot about this

Sure. I guess in this case “avoidance” would be scheduling your shift after your urgent work is due.

I think it general it’s hard to be dogmatic as humans and we’re often pulled in different directions by emotion, sickness, lust, etc. Even holy texts can be self-contradicting and engender different interpretations

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ADHD?

After I left religion, I completely stopped thinking of my decisions (and how they relate to my lofty goals vs primal drives) in terms of "temptation". It almost feels like a foreign concept to me anymore.

I think about why I'm making a choice, what effect it has, who it might harm/help, and whether it will make me happy. It comes much more naturally, and decisions don't feel like a struggle.

Trying to suppress thoughts or feelings is fruitless, because errant thoughts and desires that run counter to our goals are natural products of any human brain.

Instead, take them as valuable input, and then make your decision. Will you obey the errant thought, or will you proceed with your goal in spite of it? It doesn't matter either way, as long as you're happy with the outcome.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/google-dictionary-by-goog/mgijmajocgfcbeboacabfgobmjgjcoja?hl=en

Great chrome extension, double click on word and the definition comes up. I had to use it for that banana.

What do you think about dynamic inconsistency of preferences?

I think that accounts for/describes at least many kinds of what is called “temptations”, though maybe not all.

Growth and acceptance definitely lead to the resistance of temptation, but in personal experience the path is not immediate. It isn’t impossible to hit further fragmentation on the route of trying to change yourself.

People tend to not like heretics. Resisting a temptation that is socially normalized will lead to people giving you shit for it. Your very presence now fragments their mind. Some people do not want to have to think about all the ways they can be changing themselves.

A classic example is how often people get peer pressured out of maintaining sobriety.

> ''i know this is 'bad' but i do not care, everything is 'bad' after all'

Or, as we call it in AA, "the f*ck-its". As in "my wife hates me, f'it, let's drink", or "Or I've been sober for six months but I've had two drinks. F'it, let's drink". Certainly got the best of me for nearly ten years.

I think being more self-aware of them helps us to compensate. But I'm not sure being inconsistent is a problem unless we're talking about a preference for certain ethical principles.

People living in cognitive dissonance are depressed, bipolar

The side effect of cognitive dissonance is depression.

Yep. If there’s one line of speech that sums up what depression feels like, it’s “There is nothing I can do.”

Source: Am a physician and have suffered from depression

I think that twelve step programs can be a powerful tool for a person seeking to change their mind, reframe a worldview and disrupt problematic behaviors. It is not perfect, it certainly can be problematic for some people and is generally oozing with cringe, especially if you have not personally known an addict.

I like your assessment of the serenity prayer and i think the power of some of the common mottos are underestimated from a psychological perspective.

Related to the post the phrase Just for Today similarly helps resisting temptation by setting a smaller obtainable goal 'i don't have to quit forever, just for today' which relieves a lot of pressure but it also has another effect, a sort of psychological trick in that every day is 'today'.

I’m an average Joe that philosophizes mental illness.

I didn’t realize people found 12 step programs “despicable” I understand they’re not for everyone but they have literally saved my life and the lives of people I love.

I think the early AA stuff unintentionally hit on a lot of what is only now being understood.

Username does not check out, JOE.

>most people feel as if their current self-image is how they will be forever

This explains a lot about why people are so okay with their flaws. Everyone is flawed, but if it can be fixed, fix it. You can stop when you die.

Well the problem is that what I’m likely to do in the future is not what I currently want to in-the-future-do , and in the later future not what I will want-to-have-done.

I don’t see how that’s not “a problem”?

I think I struggle with this due to having a rough upbringing. At the same time, I attribute a lot of myself to the few external positives, as well as the collection of other close ones who were astray.

Both the good and bad have been solid reflection points for myself throughout my life. I was fortunate enough to soak up a lot at a young age, and being curious has helped me form better feelings besides the second-hand initial knowledge. Going astray throughout life up through now has helped confirm some things, but also helped me create new definitions to others.

Linking back to the video, and I believe what you're also saying - if I were to never give in to the temptations I knew were likely bad, I would have never formed a new opinion, or I may never know with certainty to myself that they are bad.

I agree we need to search within us to find what is right for ourselves. I think self-reflection is extremely important to one's growth.

I can resist anything but temptation.

Typical (read: average) JOE 🙄

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That's what make sense why priests who end up bein harassers and screwing around boys, since they obstinate from sex and try to avoid it so many times .

This is all fascinating, but in this world anything goes. Right and wrong are man made concepts. The law is a man made concept. If we didn’t have these restrictions, there would be no such thing as temptation, only desire, good or bad, right or wrong. Are they the same thing, maybe.

A thought exercise - I've had a thought that upbringing stops at 12, when the child enters puberty. At this point they begin rebelling and take in new experiences. While rebelling they are in fact not 'rebelling', but testing if the knowledge they've gained from their parents hold up in the real world. If it does, they keep it, if it doesn't, it's discarded. They keep up until they're an adult, where they've formed their own opinions.

I believe this is why we 'grow up to become like our parents', but not until we are actual adults, and not exactly alike.

There is contradiction between the super egoic demand to moderate, and the super egoic demand to enjoy perfectly at all times.

When our minds are cluttered or overwhelmed with too many competing thoughts or tasks, we may be more likely to give in to temptation as a way to relieve this mental burden

How is that "failed replication"? Sounds like "successful replication, also we found out what causes it".

@AutoTLDRbot

They're describing what the premise "Ability to resist temptation depends on parents socioeconomic background" could cause. You, me and them all know that seems unlikely, so the premise probably needs tweaking.

Maybe it’s just the subs I subscribe to, but I can barely allude to the Twelve Step programs without starting a circlejerk about how appalling ineffective, culty, and offensive to folks’ atheist sensibilities all these programs are. I mean yeah, they’re not for everyone. Under no circumstances should anyone be mandated or court-ordered to attend one. But there are people who owe their successful recovery to them, for some people they are effective, and there’s not a lot to lose by giving them a try.

As the other reply said, as an atheist, I find the "higher power" part of it to be an insult to my intelligence. But I can just ignore that and I think the rest of the program is good.

I have trouble fully supporting this one.

I feel it's a blanket statement, which rarely covers all cases. I would not consider myself to be one that fits, but I do think many may fit the mold.

For a little more context, I grew up with no restrictions. A dysfunctional family riddled with addiction and abandonment, topped off with a few forms of abuse.

I remember my childhood fairly vividly, many memories from 3-4 years old and on. I wouldn't consider all of the memories accurate, but there are times and people that really stand out, both good and bad.

In retrospect, these key moments from an early age up through my late teens helped form my sense of me. It wasn't a single rebellion period, simply because there was nothing to rebel against. I was experimenting with the world before I could even process the outcome of my actions.

A lot of the people who were bad influences and heavily involved in my younger years (pre 12) are not fairing so well in life. Neither is my younger sibling who I tried my best to watch after as long as I possibly could, but that's currently on the up I hope.

This subject is difficult to me, because I tend to put periods and experiences throughout life under a microscope. I analyze a lot of what I went through, how it made me feel, and how things could be different. I also know that not everything needs to change or could be changed, but embracing and remembering has done well for me.

That process hasn't stopped. It's become more of how I approach everything. My opinions of the past are not static, they change with every new experience I find relatable. Sometimes they are reinforced, other times I'm given a new way to think about the situation.

The thing is, there are so few constants in life. Life is also so unique, yet similar. We seem to want to find patterns that hold true for all, but lack the formulas for really proving it.

I think constantly having an open mind and making sense of it is essential to growth. I do not know that you're suggesting this, but I do not think there should be a static point. These opinions can be firm, but not firm to the extent they cannot be changed. I am currently an adult, and while I identify with a lot of my past, it is not me. I have learned, I have become better, I have also become worse. The thing is, I am not the current me. I am the future me, with past me as a reference point.

Now I guess tying in to what I take from your comment - I'd argue puberty isn't THE defining point. Maybe it is for some, maybe it's the spark. I personally am just now learning who my parents are, so I do not have much of an identity with either. That said, the very young experiences with extended family were massive.

I recently connected with an aunt that used to watch me sporadically when I was 4-6. Since then I've seen her twice, the most recent being 15 years ago. It was surreal finally getting to know her better - my sense of her was extremely limited. I could tell you everything about her house, her children, what I did there, but I couldn't tell you much of what I remember about her. I know I didn't have negative feelings, but I couldn't put a finger on the positive.

Seeing her after so much time had passed was surreal. She understood a lot of what I had to say, and I saw similarities in things like her reactions and temperament. We identified with one another.

I attribute myself to the experiences like the short few years of being babysit by her. I'm not implying she is the sole reason, I have countless others that stand out in my youth. My time alone was equally beneficial with simply thinking - I grew up with a lot of thinking, it was the only way to justify my existence at times.

Sorry if I went off a bit too much. More than willing to keep this train going, if the opportunity presents itself. This year has been very profound for me, but I'm struggling to find more outlets to be heard and also hear. I appreciate the extra thought!

Yeah I mean I think it was understood that a literal Christian god would be a turn off which is why there’s a chapter specifically for agnostics. I can get down with “I higher power of your understanding”. It just does not bother me personally in that language

Yeah. I have been a lifelong atheist and in my opinion anyone unwilling to consider a program because of that is more or less looking for an excuse. This book was written a long time ago and even then the language is “I higher power of YOUR understanding” as well as there being a chapter for agnostics. It’s actually one of the most important chapters.

But I suppose it all depends on the groups in your area. The meetings I attend are very open to all ideas and there are specific atheist meetings if you prefer

And I’m exactly the opposite — a lifelong theist, who is skeptical that the Twelve Step programs should be the gold standard, let alone the be-all-end-all, of addiction recovery. And nevertheless, you and I more or less agree on this matter, lol. Way too much black-and-white thinking and bandwagon side-taking these days, and it’s frankly refreshing to find people and spaces where that’s not the case. All the best to you this new year, dude. ❤️

All the best to you as well. I absolutely agree it should not be considered the end all be all. It’s a part of my recovery and not the entirety of it. There are always going to be book thumpers that scoff at others, they’re not helpful

Isn't that because you were raised to find that you always need to find your own path, and nothing is constant? So your upbringing, up to 12, consisted of a lifestyle that required constant learning and growth. The reason I am asking is because my upbringing were similar, and I also have a similar mindset to you.

Yes and no.

Yes to always having to find my own path. I lacked authority and was able to identify at a young age what others experienced at home from their parents. I then took what I viewed second-hand and applied it to myself.

I'm having a hard time with the age part.

I understand and agree that many children will have an idea of the world with help from their parents. I get there will be an age at which a child will get curious enough to make sense of what they think they know and either strengthen it or dismiss it. I just do not identify a period where that happened in myself. I also think there are many layers to it, and there may not be a single period of breaking free from the initial self. To add a little more, society also controls some movements in terms of freedom and change in environments.

If anything, my upbringing has taught me lessons that were impossible to better understand until much older. I associate good upbringing from tiny splashes from extended family, friends and friends' families. Bad with every day life.

I'm sorry if I'm not getting it, but I would like a better understanding.

I, as well, am similar to you that I always found my own path from a young age, so as a teenager there was no rebellious phase for me because whatever I had learned was already tested and true. I believe you are in a similar position.

I believe you are correct.

This makes it quite difficult to make sense of, however.

How did we find our paths?

I put a lot of credit towards the positives I knew of, and how I also knew my norm was bad, but at the same time my sibling is just four years younger and our lives could not be more different post-childhood.

It also makes me wonder how much of human nature can be controlled. I'm not implying people should be controlled, but I wish it were possible to successfully help those on the wrong path at an early age.

I strongly favor living and learning. You cannot educate people on certain things without them experiencing it first-hand.

I believe this ties in with your idea of the rebellious stage - children who are guided through life, even if what is deemed "correct", will/may begin to question these thoughts. Questioning leads to testing which leads to the separation of what they knew second hand which then turns into their own experiences.

In a way, it may make sense to promote rebellion. A wrong path doesn't have to be wrong; it can be educational.

Thanks for the back and forth.

Thank yourself, I am having a great time discussing this topic with you. Your questions really make me think in directions which I haven't considered before. My initial thought was very immature, some inspiration I had in the moment. As we flesh it out together it seems to have greater depth than I could have anticipated.

I believe it wasn't so much that we found our paths, as we subconsciously looked at the reactions of the people around us for answers and consequences. Instead of being told what to do, we had to think and gather information from a variety of sources.

The more and more I dive into the subconscious self the more confused I get.

We are beings consisting of trillions of microorganisms that work hard to maintain the physical us. There is far greater unknowns going on inside with endless communication and cooperation that "we" have next to no control over. I understand I'm limited in my knowledge through science, but I enjoy trying to learn all I can on the biological side. I find myself going down a lot of funky paths thinking about life in general.

I am probably diving a little too deep with the above, but I can't help but wonder and think if there is more going on than we could ever comprehend with far greater implications on the self.

Anyway, I've had a really pleasurable time digging into why I do a lot of things and I enjoy the discoveries. It's fun to slow down common actions and think about them - why I do it, is there a better way, did I knowingly choose the best way or was it by chance, etc.

If you have anything else you want to dive into please feel free to keep it going.

Your main point is excellent but it is your aside regarding twelve step programs that grabbed my interest. My father suffered from alcoholism and has been sober now for close to 25 years. I believe AA played an important role in his recovery. HOWEVER, I do agree with some commenters that the process is "culty" and "weird" to an outsider having experienced a few meetings in person in support of my dad (i.e. receiving his 5 year token).

All that said, my biggest issue related to how the "sponsor" relationship worked. The process for getting a sponsor seemed to be some form of meritocracy based on the length of time a person had been sober. The clear assumption was the longer you had been sober, the better a sponsor you could be to persons new to the program.

The problem with this logic is that Alcoholics have many personal problems that stem from their addiction to alcohol. Stopping the drinking is simply a first "Step" (see what I did there?) in putting your life back together. The sponsor seemed great on the drinking part but in my dad's case, his sponsors became a bit of a hideously underqualified life coach as well. For dad, his ability to filter the sponsor's good advice received regarding his drinking habits from the poor advice he received on how to handle problems with his marriage, professional career, and finanical issues was non-existent. I can't speak for anyone else, but this devotion my father had to his sponsor over anyone else in his life was one of the primary reasons why I came to despise the program over time.

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