aboutsider t1_j6cj7oq wrote on January 29, 2023 at 10:36 AM

Reply to comment by Sankara_Connolly2020 in School students in Sq Hill by soparklion

Yes, those are exactly the statistics to which I'm referring. They show marital and living status but don't actually detail parental involvement or family strength. Do you have stats on that?

Um, ok? I do too. And, I dunno what kind of organizations you belong to or people you associate with but all the leftists I know are working class. And, they may be extreme but they don't just talk. They're very active on all fronts. Sucks that you've only been surrounded by lazy ass elitists but you shouldn't assume that's representative of the whole.

And here you have proven my point-- your making some pretty prejudiced assumptions about the intent of those commenting on racist language. You ignore that it's racist or classist so you can scold leftists about taking some moral high ground and why this makes them political losers. You're cool with letting that racist shit be said because the thing which you find really objectionable is your perception that leftists are nothing but virtue signaling elitists. Which doesn't even make a whole lot of sense-- what political side doesn't take a moral high ground and virtue signal and scold those who don't follow it? Does that mean that no side will ever achieve an effective political majority?

Sankara_Connolly2020 t1_j6eete8 wrote on January 29, 2023 at 7:39 PM

Yes, those are exactly the statistics to which I'm referring. They show marital and living status but don't actually detail parental involvement or family strength. Do you have stats on that?

Here’s a starter pack for you, but feel free to do your own research if you don’t like what you see: https://fathers.com/the-consequences-of-fatherlessness/

It’s obvious that, even if the majority of the issues that correlate with fatherlessness are economic, then fatherlessness is a serious economic issues that perpetuates cycles of poverty and the associated social problems. The extent to which it’s a problem when controlling for class is in an interesting one, and I’m open to debate on that point.

Do you have any evidence saying that fatherlessness is not a serious problem? Because I haven’t found any that isn’t anecdotal or specious.

I dunno what kind of organizations you belong to or people you associate with but all the leftists I know are working class.

It sounds like you’ve never had the misfortune of being a heretic. I don’t recommend it for everyone, but there is something rather liberating about excommunication.

In the broadest definition, most lefties are working class. But if we’re going to have a serious discussion about modern class structure, then most hyper-active lefties are downwardly mobile PMC at best, or straight up Ivy League brats at worst.

You're cool with letting that racist shit be said because the thing which you find really objectionable is your perception that leftists are nothing but virtue signaling elitists.

Do you think scolding working class people for being concerned about criminal elements fucking up their neighborhoods because there are icky racial dynamics at play, and because they don’t phrase things using the delicate language of the academy, makes the left come off more or less like virtue-signally elitists?

Which doesn't even make a whole lot of sense-- what political side doesn't take a moral high ground and virtue signal and scold those who don't follow it?

The ones that win.

Do you think the average CIO organizer went around chastising steelworkers for their social prejudices? Or do you think they brought a diverse group of working class men together through common struggle, and let that shared material experience and struggle for dignity take the lead in overcoming the bigotry that the bosses tired incite?

aboutsider t1_j6hn2r8 wrote on January 30, 2023 at 11:50 AM

I never said fatherlessness isn't a serious issue. I'm saying that you have yet to prove that it's an issue in the black community. You're taking statistics about marriage and living situation and conflating that with parental involvement. Just because two people aren't married or living together, doesn't mean that both parents aren't involved. Why do you keep making that assumption? Do you have any statistics that prove that black children are "fatherless" at a higher rate than white children?

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make about class? You said that most leftist rhetoric isn't working class. Ok, that's not my experience. Just because you're only listening to the loudest, richest, and most influential voices, doesn't mean that lots of leftists aren't discussing real world solutions that actually make sense for them as the working class. You've been trying to push this rigid definition of leftists but at every turn you seem to move the goal posts. So, are leftists out of touch with the working class or are they actually more likely to be working class while the minority of leftists are out of touch richies?

Hahaha, yes, dude. I, as an anti-authority, queer, disabled atheist woman who comes from a family of criminals living in a dying rust belt town, know nothing of being considered a heretic!

Can you not see that this is a deflection that kinda totally proves my point? I point out that you're more concerned with confronting leftists about appearances than confronting racists about their racism and you ask me how you think I appear as a leftist confronting racism? Um, I'm not too concerned with appearances, to be honest. I don't really care if people think I'm virtue signaling or scolding or whatever. I'm not in control of what other people think. I'm in control of what I do and say. And, I do and say based on what I believe is right. If you, like others, choose to focus on how offended you are because someone said that your behavior or words could be construed as racist rather than doing the hard work that comes with examining those claims then that's on you.

Hahaha, ok, which political party that's winning, doesn't take the moral high ground, doesn't scold, doesn't virtue signal?

No, I absolutely do not think that union heads were chastising workers for their social prejudices. Know why? Because it's pretty well known that the early unions were extremely racist and discriminatory. They didn't bring together a diverse group of working class men". In fact, you'd be amazed at how many unions were started because of or motivated by the threat of cheap black labor or simply integration. It's believed that black wealth has fallen so far behind in large part because of the discrimination and exclusion of black people in unions for decades. That bigotry was never overcome. Instead it was institutionalized. So, yeah, the union was successful... at improving the status of lots of white folks at the expense of black folks. Are you sure that this is the model that you'd like to follow?

Sankara_Connolly2020 t1_j6j0jxc wrote on January 30, 2023 at 6:00 PM

There’s clearly not a stat on black fatherhood that is going to force your head out of the sand. Not gonna keep kicking at a moving goal post.

Gonna skip ahead to your last paragraph, because oh boy, you have swallowed the race-reductionist, anti-labor, New Deal revisionism whole-heatedly, haven’t you? Don’t know what to tell you if you don’t think the CIO and the New Deal was beneficial for black wealth and planted the seeds for the Civil Rights movement. You might want to type A. Phillip Randolph into the old search engine as a good starting point.