Comments
shawsome12 t1_j848ei5 wrote
Even in therapy, sometimes it’s hard to uncover what is really causing your behavior. It “hides” so to speak. Covering up shame, or fear can inhibit the therapeutic professional’s treatment. Denial is a big factor too.
MahatmaBuddah t1_j85t0p0 wrote
Very true! As a clinical child psychologist, I’ve often said 75% of my skill and ability to be helpful is who I was before I went to grad school and learned the theories and techniques of psychotherapy. Who I was, as a mature, patient, nonjudgmental, not make assumptions, kind of person. Grad school and training taught me how to Iisten better, tho, that’s for sure.
Neurotic_Bakeder t1_j86u4lx wrote
This is mostly just a bad headline imo. The way they measured "training" was 1st versus 4th year psychology students.
However, my psych undergrad focused on psych research and literature, not counselling skills.
The article concludes saying that this study highlights the need for specific training around perspective taking and empathy for counselors, rather than hoping you just suddenly develop mentalization skills after reading 300 articles on abnormal psych or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I can read about rats pulling levers all day long, but I don't expect that to make me any better at helping a client breathe through a panic attack.
ignigenaquintus t1_j87w52i wrote
If empathy is the key here, then we have a problem. We know due the literature of in-group bias that both men and women have more empathy for women, and the number of male psychologists have been reduced from 38% to 28% in the last decade, with male psychologists under 30 being only 5% of psychologists under 30.
We also know that there are between 15-20+ liberals per non liberal working in psychology, and that ideas like privilege and systemic discrimination reduce the empathy toward men.
Seems to me this could easily translate in a situation where the people that are going to need more help in the following decades are the ones that may be receiving less empathy and therefore less effective help.
Unhappy_Gas_4376 t1_j85ihwg wrote
I would like to know if having gone through analysis or therapy oneself would increase mentalization. The article suggests that age is a factor in mentalization scores. If it is just a matter of life experience then undergoing therapy yourself should your ability to understand other peoples internal processes.
You used to have to go through your own therapy to become a psychiatrist, but I don't know if that is part of education in clinical psychology.
MahatmaBuddah t1_j85t6ff wrote
You make a good point
DickRiculous t1_j89yvjo wrote
I will say that I do think therapy attracts this kind of high EQ person, however.
FwibbFwibb t1_j8egbnr wrote
I have been seeing therapists for over a decade. I have had three that were men and three that were women. In all cases, the men wouldn't try to dig in to anything at all. Just ask "how have you been?" and the like. I would sheepishly respond "ok I guess...", clearly there were things I was having difficulty bringing up... but that would end it. I was OK. Next patient.
Imagine treating a physical ailment the same way. Just taking a patient's word for whether or not they feel "good".
Commercial-Life-9998 t1_j8eivxh wrote
In a way I think this goes back to how we social ppl as children. Little girls derive satisfaction from play by relationships and sharing feelings. Little boys derive satisfaction from doing and building. Or least this is the gendered play we channel children into. Girls and women’s play is to find out what is up with their girlfriends. It just doesn’t feel like anything was accomplished unless we have delved into one another’s lives. To stop at I-am-fine, feels like a big failure for women. When there is beaning-counting and number-of-widgets-made, men feel I-am-fine, to be completely acceptable. Once physicians had to earn RVUs, there was an earth quake of difference in how treatment of mental healthcare was performed.
Thoughtless_winter t1_j82xi50 wrote
This is basically talking about cognitive empathy, which generally can only be improved through increasing things self awareness and/or working through personal traumas.
TransRational t1_j833l52 wrote
I agree with you, and it makes me wonder about the potential risks/ramifications of newly graduated students having their first experiences with trauma be second hand through their patients. And in turn, how that might affect the patients care if their doctors were in fact affected.
muuhfuuuh t1_j8497zl wrote
During school for clinical psychology, students are actively working on their own stuff while learning how to implement it with clients. And have been actively working with real clients under supervision before graduating. Also post-graduation, in order to have a job you have to be under supervision for a number of years to help mitigate any unintentional client harm.
noweezernoworld t1_j84x7kr wrote
It’s also a presumption that grad students don’t already have their own trauma material to work with! That being said, I do think it is problematic how interns and trainees are thrown into some of the highest need populations.
PsychologicalLuck343 t1_j859jht wrote
How do they weed out sociopaths? Or do they even try?
muuhfuuuh t1_j85dtd9 wrote
There are ethical codes of conduct for psychologists - two of them being, not doing clients harm and doing what’s in the clients best interest. If a student (or any practitioner) is violating them then their ability to graduate / hold a license is on the line. But sociopaths are going to do what they do no matter what school they’re in.
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muuhfuuuh t1_j84998p wrote
During school for clinical psychology, students are actively working on their own stuff while learning how to implement it with clients. And have been actively working with real clients under supervision before graduating. Also post-graduation, in order to have a job you have to be under supervision for a number of years to help mitigate any unintentional client harm.
helm t1_j83dudk wrote
The study is entirely based on "self reported" skills. I have no idea how that is supposed to be an objective measure of metallization. For example. Psychology students think they are hot shit, then train for some years, but reportedly "don't think they have better mentalization", that is, they don't report being better.
But the effect could simply be that they overestimated their abilities as freshmen, and their studies made them aware that the world is more complex than they thought. Thus humbling them.
rogueblades t1_j84oeku wrote
Perception studies do have some amount of value even if the notion of “measuring perception” is inherently imperfect. Sometimes perception studies can reveal interesting gaps between perception and reality. Of course, your observations are things that researchers would consider, And they do complicate the findings of perception studies.
I had an old sociology professor many years ago who was fond of saying “A problem is a problem whether real or perceived“
thisimpetus t1_j874yy6 wrote
Because unless you can demonstrate that a higher percentage of over-estimators specifically become psychologists the probability is an equal number of under-estimators exist. They balance out in the statistical wash.
InternetPeon t1_j82iqdc wrote
Are you telling me my psychiatrist has no idea what they’re doing despite training?
ConsciousCr8or t1_j82r8z5 wrote
“Mentalization is the ability to understand the mental states of oneself and others” is the first line in the article. I don’t think this can be trained into a person. You can’t “train” someone into understanding. Experience and contemplation (of yourself), also teaches you about others, not training
InternetPeon t1_j82t8pw wrote
So it’s all just prescripttion then?
Ecyclist t1_j82yr4e wrote
I can tell you adderall works 100x better than my biweekly therapist visits. But I digress.
metekillot t1_j83b6vx wrote
That's weird. My current therapy appointments are working much better for me then all the antidepressants and what not were. Funny how it all shakes out!
acesulfame_potassium t1_j83ynu7 wrote
Adderall and antidepressants are typically prescribed for different disorders, so nothing's really contradictory there. Talk therapy (possibly combined with antidepressants to promote neuroplasticity) as a treatment for depression seems pretty well-accepted and grounded at this point.
smallbutlazy t1_j83169k wrote
Most clinical psychologists don't prescribe medication. I think the study is saying that mentalisation is an inherent ability possibly improved through actual practise rather than training.
ConsciousCr8or t1_j83w7v1 wrote
Yes, I agree! Its More of an innate skill that can strengthened than a thing to be taught.
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nokia_guy t1_j84hplm wrote
There’s a difference between psychologists and psychiatrists.
helm t1_j83dzhy wrote
The study says that freshmen think they're hot shit when it comes to mentalization, and after their studies they think the same. They don't think higher of themselves. But is that because of their naiveté as freshmen, or because the training failed? Impossible to tell.
Weecha t1_j851lj9 wrote
I just can’t wait to tell my psychiatrist everything and walk out with it still in my mind, running on repeat, every day, at every hour… and the psychiatrist just gets to clock out and bill me or my insurance company hundreds. They just won’t get it, and I don’t expect them to. Their expensive empathy has zero effect on my mental health. Just give me my Zoloft and stop making me come in here.
Neurotic_Bakeder t1_j86twb0 wrote
Psychiatrists are kinda famous within mental health fields for really struggling with empathy. They're deeply entrenched in the disease model, which isn't super compatible with clients' lived experiences, and med school is....a lot.
Finding a therapist you vibe with can help (though I'm biased as hell, being a therapist myself). It doesn't fix things, necessarily, but it can at least make you feel like you're not shouting into the wind.
Weecha t1_j8750n3 wrote
It doesn’t matter who I tell. Doesn’t make me feel any better about any of it. I’m just one of those people that doesn’t get anything from therapy. Drug me.
Neurotic_Bakeder t1_j8767n1 wrote
That's fair, cheers
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dillrepair t1_j85mdm4 wrote
I don’t necessarily think that clinical psychology training does a great job of teaching “mentalization”. The people who are good at it were good from the outset
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h8speech t1_j82i0jm wrote
Not a psychologist, but
> the ability to understand one’s own behavior, and the behavior of others
It doesn’t sound like that’s what they mean.
In fact it sounds like a pretty fundamental ability for a psychologist to possess.
paulfromatlanta t1_j82i85e wrote
I think you are right. I'll delete above post to avoid confusion.
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Commercial-Life-9998 t1_j83mhe3 wrote
Validates what is already a common assumption. Some ppl can guess at the complexities of a person’s problems while others with the same training and certification can be clueless. So much of care with psychology and psychiatry depends on patients being able to bring forth the important aspects of their problems for therapy. Many,many can’t/ & or won’t. In that case the effectiveness of therapy hinges on empathic, intuitive guesses of the clinician. We haven’t yet developed training that is effective for that. I think the science of the last 50 years was overly optimistic that it could be done. We felt we could train physicians, so we can train therapists in the very same way.