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glichez t1_iszip4w wrote

its been a real hoot listening to all the idiots whine about "soy boys" while they all go out and drink....

https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh22-3/220.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0B3BpRJ8JeAcbVtlU37hwn5UE_-CovlC4Fr_4eHboD-tz3MpGYsWYffSY

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Darwins_Dog t1_iszth3v wrote

I expect this level of nonsense in the vegan vs. omnivore diet threads, but this is just saying that soy is a good source of protein. It's like even the slightest acknowledgement that plant based diets are fine is somehow a threat.

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selltheworld t1_it19rm0 wrote

Some people try to validate their own position by attacking another position.

Like trying to prove that god is real by attacking evolution.

Problem is that its possible that both a meat diet and a plant diet is suitable for humans. Or that evolution and god is true.

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Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it1x8p5 wrote

Alcohol in diet is suitable for humans but that doesn't mean we shouldn't mention how unhealthy and harmful alcohol is. Same applies to meat. There are significant downsides to meat consumption.

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selltheworld t1_it1zvv2 wrote

Thats not the point Im making. Im saying that you cant validate your own diet by attacking another.

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Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it21hto wrote

You make no sense and you're incorrect. Unhealthy diets exist.

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Darwins_Dog t1_it26ort wrote

And if you eat an unhealthy diet, attacking a different diet won't make it better. That's the point they were making.

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Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it29w99 wrote

That's a completely illogical statement. Literally nobody has implied otherwise.

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jack1176 t1_it2udci wrote

TIL "literally nobody" is synonymous with a large proportion of people.

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selltheworld t1_it21r2m wrote

The reason I make no sense to you is because you are trying to force your nonsense on me.

I didnt say unhealthy diets dont exist.

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LyLyV t1_it3b89d wrote

There really is nothing "suitable" about ingesting alcohol. It's a literal poison. No judgement to be people who choose to put it in their bodies, but let's at least be clear about what it is.

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Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it3enua wrote

Alcohol and meat are healthier than cigarettes, therefore alcohol and meat are healthy.

OR

They're all proven to be unhealthy, therefore they do not belong to a healthy diet.

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misandristkimwexler t1_it2629m wrote

And there's downsides to a vegan diet. Many people can't adopt one for a variety of reasons.

Meat isn't bad, it can be part of a healthy diet.

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Fabulous_Archer4999 t1_it2ac0p wrote

>And there's downsides to a vegan diet.

False

>Many people can't adopt one for a variety of reasons.

False. Less than 1% of people would have long term difficulties, and vast majority of cases can be fixed. So we're looking at a ridiculously low % of people. There hasn't been a documented person who is completely unable to handle any vegan foods.

>Meat isn't bad,

False

> it can be part of a healthy diet.

So can tobacco, alcohol and cocaine.

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nulliusansverba t1_it2jn6n wrote

4 out of 5 blue zones drink booze basically daily.

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18Apollo18 t1_it43nj8 wrote

That doesn't mean it's the alcohol causing the longevity.

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nulliusansverba t1_it4apms wrote

Actually, studies show that moderate consumption of alcohol is beneficial. Inverted U-curve.

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18Apollo18 t1_it4m3dj wrote

The U shaped curve, ie reduction of mortality in light to moderate drinkers, is only found in study's which lump livelong abstainers, ex drinkers, ex binge drinkers, elderly ex drinkers and sick ex drinkers all into one category.

But when you control for these factors the curve disappears.

Many studies have same thing with smoking. For example, one study found that quiting smoking at 30 was associated with higher rates of early mortality than quitting at 50.

Does that mean smoking longer is beneficial? Of course not. The most probable justification for these results is simply that those quiting at age 30 were much more likely to be previous chainsmokers and/or have had some heath problem causing them to quit so much early

Moderate Alcohol Use and Reduced Mortality Risk: Systematic Error in Prospective Studies and New Hypotheses

Estimates of mortality risk from alcohol are significantly altered by study design and characteristics. Meta-analyses adjusting for these factors find that low-volume alcohol consumption has no net mortality benefit compared with lifetime abstention or occasional drinking. These findings have implications for public policy, the formulation of low-risk drinking guidelines, and future research on alcohol and health.

A substantial progressive decrease in the mortality rates among non-smokers over the past half century (due to prevention and improved treatment of disease) has been wholly outweighed, among cigarette smokers, by a progressive increase in the smoker nu non-smoker death rate ratio due to earlier and more intensive use of cigarettes. Among the men born around 1920, prolonged cigarette smoking from early adult life tripled age specific mortality rates, but cessation at age 50 halved the hazard, and cessation at age 30 avoided almost all of it.

Pooled analysis of all identified studies suggested an association between alcohol use and reduced CHD risk. However, this association was not observed in studies of those age 55 years or younger at baseline, in higher quality studies, or in studies that controlled for heart health. The appearance of cardio-protection among older people may reflect systematic selection biases that accumulate over the life course.

Alcohol's contribution to cancer is underestimated for exactly the same reason that its contribution to cardioprotection is overestimated

Alcohol—a universal preventive agent? A critical analysis. The evidence for the harmful effects of alcohol is undoubtedly stronger than the evidence for beneficial effects.

A sophisticated campaign by global alcohol corporations has promoted them as good corporate citizens and framed arguments with a focus on drinkers rather than the supply of alcohol. This has contributed to acceptance in the global governance arena dealing with policy development and implementation to an extent which is very different from tobacco. This approach, which obscures the contribution supply and marketing make to alcohol-related harm, has also contributed to failure by governments to adopt effective supply-side policies.

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nulliusansverba t1_itcg6p3 wrote

I think you've been reading too many studies without practicing discernment.

You realize like half of studies have fundamental errors and that makes the conclusions meaningless, right?

Look at some higher quality studies.

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MarvinLazer t1_it1a6ov wrote

Alcohol also increases cortisol levels over time, though, and anyone stupid enough to unironically use the term "soy boy" is probably also stupid enough to conflate anger, stress, and premature aging with masculinity.

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TheRightening t1_it2ktjb wrote

As someone that does strong man lifting, I have to be conscious of my testosterone levels and soy threatens that. Soy is a great source of protein for women.

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18Apollo18 t1_it48my9 wrote

Data shows that vegan men have just as high if not higher testosterone levels while simultaneously having a low risk for prostate cancer

In a well characterized national database, the plant-based diet index is unable to predict testosterone levels. Plant-based food content in diet is not associated with serum testosterone levels.

There is little evidence from intervention studies that diet is related to serum androgen levels, with changes to both low-fat and high-fat diets having been reported to reduce testosterone, FT and DHT concentrations over the short-term. Data from observational studies do not support the hypothesis that a diet low in saturated fatty acids is associated with lower androgen concentrations. Indeed, there is a tendency for testosterone levels to be slightly higher among vegans than meat-eaters, most probably as a direct response to an elevated SHBG concentration. A vegetarian and/or low-fat diet also has not been shown to influence LH levels, further implying that effects on androgens are insufficient to provoke a gonadotropic response. Given the absence of clear effects of diet on androgens, the lack of dietary effect on oestrogens would be expected because circulating oestrone and oestradiol in men are largely derived from peripheral conversion of androgens. One explanation as to why diet does not appear to elicit substantial differences in circulating androgen levels is due to the body's natural feedback mechanism to maintain the internal environment. Indeed, the small increase in testosterone concentration observed among vegan men is almost certainly caused by the increase in SHBG, in order to maintain a constant level of FT. However, in a much larger study, vegetarian and vegan men who were known to consume soyabean regularly were not found to have lower A-diol-g levels than meat-eaters (Allen et al. 2000). It may be that soyabean consumption among Western vegetarians is not sufficient to exert physiological effects.

Mean serum insulin-like growth factor-I was 9% lower in 233 vegan men than in 226 meat-eaters and 237 vegetarians (P = 0.002). Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone.

Vegans had 13% higher T concentration than meat-eaters (P = 0.0001) and 8% higher than vegetarians (P = 0.001); adjustment for BMI reduced these differences to 6% (P = 0.07) and 7% (P = 0.02), respectively. The results did not support the hypothesis that meat-eaters have higher levels of bioavailable androgens than non meat-eaters. No differences in hormone levels were found between meat-eaters and lacto-ovo-vegetarians, suggesting that vegetarian diets may not alter prostate cancer risk, but the relatively low IGF-I levels in vegans might reduce their risk of prostate cancer

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TheRightening t1_it5nxjp wrote

Vegan men, carnivorous men, pescatarian men that eat soy have higher levels of serum estrogen than those that avoid it altogether. https://www.montana.edu/hhd/graduate/dietetics/blog_posts/Soy_hormonal_health.html

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18Apollo18 t1_it6bk86 wrote

The study referenced literally found reduced estrogen levels in the soy milk group.

Estrone concentration tended to decrease in the soymilk-supplemented group [regression parameter β (SE) = −0.003352 (0.00226)] and increase in the control group [β (SE) = 0.003228 (0.00223)] over the study period. None of the other hormones measured showed any statistical difference in changing patterns between the two groups.

Nagata, , Takatsuka, N., Shimizu, H. The effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen and androgen concentrations in Japanese men. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers. March 1, 2001 10(3) 179-184.

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TheRightening t1_it7t9lk wrote

Estrone and Serum Estrogen are not the same thing. The confirmation bias is cute though.

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18Apollo18 t1_it8489j wrote

>Estrone and Serum Estrogen are not the same thing

Are you missing the part where they said no difference was found in any other hormones measured??

Also estrone is one of the 3 types of estrogen commonly tested in the blood

There are many types of estrogen, but only three types are commonly tested: Estrone, Estradiol, and Estriol

https://medlineplus.gov/lab-tests/estrogen-levels-test/

>The confirmation bias is cute though.

How the hell is it conformation bias? That's literally the study cited by the source you sent to me

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sdomtihstae t1_it3j08t wrote

> Soy is a great source of protein for women.

I enjoy how you lay out for all to ponder in an open reasoned scientific dialogue. Nice!

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TheRightening t1_it5mvw3 wrote

I'm not trying to have a debate with people to lazy to do their own research.

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