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croninsiglos t1_ixqk9x4 wrote

I don’t like that they are using the term “exposed to alcohol”

These people drink alcohol, likely for a reason. I wouldn’t necessarily blame the alcohol for the postpartum depression.

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Banea-Vaedr t1_ixqlf89 wrote

"People with depression more likely to be depressed" doesn't have the same ring to it

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zutonofgoth t1_ixsfsmk wrote

What about "People with depression more likely to drink alcohol"?

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seamustheseagull t1_ixqxr8x wrote

It's weird. Is it a translation issue?

I assumed they used the word "exposed" specifically to avoid confusion with consumption - e.g. to include women who spent a lot of time socialising with drinkers during their pregnancy.

But no, they mean "women who consumed alcohol", not "women who were exposed to alcohol". That means something different.

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croninsiglos t1_ixqzpn0 wrote

When talking about pregnant women people typically use “exposed” when referring to the child which wouldn’t make sense in that context.

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delk82 t1_ixrthlz wrote

Referring to the what?

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croninsiglos t1_ixs8qqj wrote

Studies referring to fetal exposure to alcohol.

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delk82 t1_ixsvhtq wrote

Ah there it is. Dehumanize the baby.

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annoying-throwaway t1_ixsza3p wrote

All mammals have a fetal development stage. What are you on about?

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delk82 t1_ixt0ela wrote

They said child originally when referring to a child in the womb. Revealing the subconscious slip that shows that we all know on some level that unborn babies are in fact babies. Then they changed it to “fetus” when I called it out.

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Just_thefacts_jack t1_ixtjk0k wrote

First of all this conversation has nothing to do with reproductive rights so please stop.

Second of all, people who believe in reproductive rights for women don't deny that fetuses will eventually develop into babies/children. Using the word fetus is not a strategic choice meant to dehumanize, it's scientific terminology meant to differentiate The stages of development between egg, embryo, fetus, and baby.

You're creating a ridiculous straw man and you look foolish doing it.

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LookImBehindYou t1_ixv2zd5 wrote

The difference between a baby and a fetus is one of location/environment, not development. People tend to think of them as different stages with fetus coming first and baby following it (which, to be fair, is how it usually works), yet one woman can have a fetus that is actually older than a baby.

Lastly, depending on how adventurous the doctor is and how open to new experiences the mother is, you can even have a fetus with no rights who becomes a baby and inherits the rights of a person in that jurisdiction, who then turns back into a fetus who would lose their rights in some jurisdictions while retaining them in others.

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delk82 t1_ixtmoaq wrote

Do I look foolish or do you just disagree with me?

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delk82 t1_ixtncum wrote

“Reproductive rights”, another manipulation of words to make it sound better than what it is.

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Cyphierre t1_ixt2213 wrote

> we all know on some level that unborn babies are in fact babies.

Huh? If you had a fetus in your arms would you be unsure whether it was actually a baby instead?

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delk82 t1_ixt5eg6 wrote

No need to keep playing dumb

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arxaquila t1_ixrttx8 wrote

An excess of PC. Someone should do a metadata analysis of effects of over abundance of PC on stress.

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nanny2359 t1_ixqldkr wrote

The studies aren't limited to people who consume excessive amounts of alcohol. It's any amount, which indicates the issue is alcohol not alcohol abuse.

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croninsiglos t1_ixqq9ta wrote

They do include those that drink socially, nothing to do with excess, and those individuals then lack those same social lives after giving birth (for obvious reasons).

I guess the point is that there are tons of external factors at play and this is only showing a correlation but not causation.

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darkswanjewelry t1_ixqu6xg wrote

Or there could be different explanations for different sub-cohorts. People predisposed to depressive symptoms might also be in a group of those that rely on moderate drinking for emotional regulation, AND a possibly separate group of people may have a kind of extraverted social life where social drinking is commonplace, and thus after birth suffer a significant lifestyle change which may trigger depressive simptomatology.

I'd hazard a guess it's easier to adapt to the "4th trimester" if one is a settled homebody vs if one is a party-hard person. The party-hard person may also experience dwindling of their support network because their old social circle is less baby-friendly, etc.

Like this is just an expected cluster of co-occuring phenomena with likely catch-22 mechanisms involved; of course all of this correlates.

It also most likely does not mean "ditch all the alcohol during pregnancy, keep behaving the same otherwise, and you're significantly reducing your chances of post-partum depression", which would be the meat of it if it did, but.

These papers always pretend like they're saying something more useful or meaningful than they are. There's no real harm reduction plan or initiative you could make off of this finding that's not already covered by common sense and/or FASD initiatives.

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nanny2359 t1_ixqqtaz wrote

It's still a very valid point. As someone who's more likely to develop PPD, this is a strong enough correlation for me to avoid alcohol during pregnancy further than is safe for the fetus.

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arxaquila t1_ixrv4px wrote

Don’t get what you’re saying. Is there a doublespeak thesaurus you can refer me too. I thought since I was at the 99th percentile of college grads in terms of verbals that I could gather what you meant but instead find myself struggling. Maybe, not being in the social sciences industry is a handicap I can’t overcome but if it meant I spoke or wrote like that no thank you.

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Punawild t1_ixsjnc6 wrote

Here I was all ready to read about how Jack Daniels goes about exposing himself to strange women minding their own business.

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subzero112001 t1_ixt4z7d wrote

“These people drink alcohol, likely for a reason”

Uh, they drink alcohol for the same reason everyone else’s drinks it. Cause it’s a drug.

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Globulart t1_ixu3czx wrote

But not many pregnant people drink it, and those that do will frequently have other issues which is why they are still drinking despite all the evidence showing how bad an idea it is.

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subzero112001 t1_ixu4gop wrote

You’re implying that a person who knowingly chooses to do something bad for themselves or a significant other indicates some kind of mental illness.

That claim would also imply that people who smoke have mental issues.

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Globulart t1_ixu4mpj wrote

No not at all, I'm implying that if you drink whilst pregnant there's likely to be a reason because it's so well known that it's a bad idea.

Might be mental illness, might be depression, might be addiction, might be a coping strategy, might be simple negligence, lots of possible reasons.

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kannolli t1_ixqsx3h wrote

Based off of Chinese data where the public health messaging about the dangers of alcohol when pregnant is not very good. So your US reasoning does not fully apply. But you are right that it only looks to the correlation not all possible variables.

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shipsAreWeird123 t1_ixtb2s7 wrote

The calculation that they did, to get the odds ratios, the alcohol is the exposure. It's just an association, not demonstrated cause and effect.

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pamplemouss t1_ixs6o2p wrote

I mean, we know alcohol is a depressant. Like literally a CNS depressant. Which in turn can cause or worsen depression or depressed mood. I enjoy the occasional drink, I am in no way a teetotaler, but alcohol is really terrible for you.

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kpidhayny t1_ixtgm2k wrote

Well it’s a “meta analysis” so… yknow, I hate ER that means.

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