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kneedeepco t1_j1mq24u wrote

Yeah the social side of this seems to be completely ignored, there is significant impact to the mental state of a child based on their weight. This is coming from someone who's been through it....

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Pupusa42 t1_j1nnbze wrote

The title of the post and article are both misleading. The study was only done with 8 year olds. The authors note that their conclusions may not apply to kids in general. Older kids are more concerned with appearance, and more likely to be self conscious, or to be bullies. I also feel like very high BMIS are probably a lot rarer in younger kinds who have had less time to put on the weight, and who usually have lots of energy. So if there is a causal effect, it seems it would be the smallest at the beginning of elementary school.

The actual paper also does state that higher BMI is associated with depression. And that "We found inconsistent evidence that a child’s BMI affected their depressive and ADHD symptoms [because it could be that the mental health issues are causing the increased BMI]". And "Our results suggest that interventions designed to reduce child obesity are unlikely to make big improvements in child mental health. On the other hand, policies which target social and environmental factors linked to higher body weights, and which target poor child mental health directly, may be more beneficial."

Basically, it sounds like the study is saying "Heavier kids are more likely to be depressed. We aren't really sure whether helping lose weight will help their depression. But we do know that helping them with their depression directly has good results, and could also help them lose weight, so give that a try." Which is an interesting and helpful conclusion.

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Hayred t1_j1oztir wrote

Thank you for that!

There seems to have been a spate of extremely misleading post titles on r/science lately, makes me wish posts had to be made just with the papers title as the post.

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shipsAreWeird123 t1_j1p25yt wrote

There was a paper recently where the title mentioned adolescents, but didn't specify that the experiment was on adolescent rodents.

I think titles would be a step in the right direction, but when there's a financial stake in flashy headlines.. it's a losing game

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thruster_fuel69 t1_j1mztp3 wrote

Social science studies should be taken with buckets of salt.

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No-Contribution-7871 t1_j1n19b3 wrote

Nearly all studies should be taken with buckets of salt.

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TenaceErbaccia t1_j1n1nb4 wrote

There is a difference in what kind of rigor can be expected though. Well over 90% of biology, chemistry, and physics experiments are controlled and replicatable. Social science data is a lot less clean cut.

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No-Contribution-7871 t1_j1n40tc wrote

Certainly, yes. But I'll be devil's postmodern advocate and say to be wary of all science which claims to be wholly objective and without influence.

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TenaceErbaccia t1_j1n5tg9 wrote

Scientific rigor is objectively important. All good science is viewed through the lens of skepticism. I am in complete agreement with that.

Buckets of salt is probably undue skepticism for lab experiments though. All things should be checked, some aren’t. Science does reward work that shows flaws in previous work though. I don’t believe headlines, but if I read a research article and the methods and results seem reasonable then I’ll believe it until other data contradicts it.

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No-Contribution-7871 t1_j1nd6mq wrote

I didn't say that the buckets of salt should be aimed towards the objective data received from experiments, simply that they should be aimed at the all studies.

Data in itself is trivial in nature. Of course water freezes at 0 C and boils at 100 C, because that is part of what defines water. Performatively though, that very point is, although objective in one manner, used rhetorically. In the same fashion, data from objective studies must be interpreted by subjects which is where salt should be aimed at.

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thruster_fuel69 t1_j1ne3x7 wrote

Love this thread, just want to mention my general response to this is other sciences have a fundamental truth in reality that social science currently can't achieve.

Not disagreeing that all science shouldn't get salt, but I stand by saying some, like social science, deserve buckets due to their nature.

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shipsAreWeird123 t1_j1p2pyy wrote

The fundamental truths are all based on linguistics and your definitions of the things you're measuring, and then the science of the measuring tools and strategy.

There are so many flaws in all of our rodent experimentation. Sexism in medicine, what about a foundation of basic biology built mainly on studying male rodents and then extrapolating to humans.

Even physics when you get down to it ends up being an existential debate about the nature of the universe.And the more we discover, the weirder things get.

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[deleted] t1_j1o0197 wrote

>Well over 90% of biology, chemistry, and physics experiments are controlled and replicatable.

This isn't the case. The replication crisis affects all fields

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rarokammaro t1_j1oicz2 wrote

You need a source. You can’t just say that. There is a reproducibility problem in every major field so you don’t even know what you’re talking about.

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tinnitustinnitus t1_j1ps1qe wrote

They don’t. Just tryna dunk on the “liberal” sciences is my guess tbh

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doorknobman t1_j1odamy wrote

It’s much easier to run controls and perfectly sound experiments for hard sciences.

Social science experiments run into ethics issues fairly frequently. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be studied, but they do need to be interpreted differently.

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gunnervi t1_j1p4w5a wrote

A good number of astronomy papers are inherently unrepeatable. You can have someone else double check your math, and if you're lucky, there will be multiple observations of the same event, but, uh, to put it simply, a star only explodes once.

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Calfredie01 t1_j1nbbdn wrote

As a social scientist myself, what makes you say that?

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thruster_fuel69 t1_j1ndhl4 wrote

There's no foundational truth to it. I'm no expert but most of the studies I've seen use questionable methods. Of particular concern is anything self reported. I don't know how you escape this, beyond what is already done with statistical analysis. I just don't think it's enough to trust it as anything "true".

More like, best guesses from best subjective data we could find, most of the time. Compare that to physics or biology where there's atoms, cells, laws that hold etc. Its just not in the same league, yet people seem to think it is.

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Calfredie01 t1_j1nf7zg wrote

There are plenty of studies that are replicable and plenty that don’t rely on self reporting as well

As for self reporting, yes people lie, which is why we formulate questions and interview types that lead to less lies. However some studies are by definition going to need self reporting and that self reporting is literally what makes the most sense

I’ll give you an example of what I do. I’m in the field of Social Network Analysis. We blend together various methods and fields from neuroscience, to psychology, to graph theory, and more. We try to analyze the characteristics and behaviors of social networks and it’s different types and we are able to do so using things like math. However, when we want to see who all is in someone’s social networks, we can either observe them or just ask them. So usually the first person they’ll name is their wife and maybe their kids and what not and we can work with this data. There’s little to no reason to believe they’d lie about that and studies have shown that in some regards they don’t. Hell it’s quite funny because we will get brutally honest answers on anonymous surveys were people will mention their spouse, but also the person they’re having an affair with.

The underlying driver in social networks is that of the homophily principle. To sum it up, think birds of a feather flock together. You are more likely to marry, be friends with, get along with, etc people who have similar interests and appearances to your own. This may sound like common sense but for a long time people assumed that “oppposites attract”

This principle holds true in literally every single society we have studied ever. Even primitive societies hold true to this. My favorite explanation for this is that there’s less cognitive work involved in meeting similar people and thus you’re able to move through beginning stages of a relationship much sooner. So for instance, if you were an expert in this area like I am, this whole comment would be for nothing and we could discuss finer social network theories such as Blau space or information heuristics.

SNA is the backbone behind many things such as terrorist intelligence gathering, networks, and logistics, as well as other covert Social Networks. It’s also used in neuroscience when studying social information that is stored, as well as in emergency response protocols.

TL:DR we are trained scientists just like any other. We are aware of the foundations of science, it’s limits, and societies limits, and employ tricks to get around such things. You are mistaken with self reporting as research shows people get extremely honest with anonymous surveys. I’m not mad, but there’s enough misinformation about social science as is and how rigorous it is. In cross disciplinary meetings, more often than not it’s my lab that has to remind other scientists of some of the basics, simply because we have to be the most careful out of most disciplines.

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Feudamonia t1_j1npsbw wrote

>You are more likely to marry, be friends with, get along with, etc people who have similar interests and appearances to your own. This may sound like common sense but for a long time people assumed that “oppposites attract”

>This principle holds true in literally every single society we have studied ever. Even primitive societies hold true to this. My favorite explanation for this is that there’s less cognitive work involved in meeting similar people and thus you’re able to move through beginning stages of a relationship much sooner.

I put it down to the familiarity principle which states people tend to develop a preference for what's familiar so people will automatically feel a person is more familiar if they have features and traits they recognise in themselves.

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thruster_fuel69 t1_j1nghh4 wrote

Even if people are "honest" it's too subjective and interdependent on complex and personal dynamics that no one study will capture it properly.

I beg you to give me an example of a consistent, repeatable story that emerges from more than 2 social science studies. So far I just see you have strong opinions and love your job. That's great and all, but doesn't change my mind.

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Calfredie01 t1_j1nhx18 wrote

Literally just look into the homophily principle as I stated. Maybe I should’ve mentioned that in the TL:DR. But that one has several countries and differing types of social circles it’s been studied in.

Another classic in my field is Granovetters “strength of weak ties”. It’s a classic but a little dated and was foundational for SNA. Brashears “The weakness of tie strength” modernized the theory and strengthened it. Those two studies and those related to them will cite multiple studies finding similar things.

Honestly your question is so easy to answer it leads me to believe that you’re likely parroting something some physics bro told you, but never actually looked into it yourself.

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hilfigertout t1_j1n15uo wrote

How is it completely ignored? This study focused on links between BMI statistics and disorders like depression, anxiety, or ADHD. Wouldn't the effects of social issues (like bullying) be part of the diagnosis statistics, unless they explicitly isolated for it?

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Jane9812 t1_j1n43bv wrote

I think a lot of the effects of bullying translate into anxiety, depression and other disorders with a delay. I think they establish a baseline low esteem which in time can contribute to other mental health issues. In speculating.

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kanegaskhan t1_j1p359u wrote

Was bullied relentlessly for being an overweight child, even by my own parents. Now I'm 6'5 and grew into my weight but still deal with my self-image after battling several eating disorders. Definitely feel that

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