Whitewing424 t1_iy9ya3a wrote
And forced prison labor is used by the US in a ludicrous amount of supply chains, but we like to ignore that.
CHBCKyle t1_iyanazh wrote
It’s real easy to talk shit about someone else’s country but not so easy to acknowledge the problems we have at home. It’s pathetic.
BassmanBiff t1_iyarbi8 wrote
Let's do both! It's also a problem when the only time we do talk about US prison labor is in order to say "Let's not talk about Chinese prison labor." It's also worth noting that China's program is even more explicitly racist than ours, but both should be considered unacceptable.
Badtrainwreck t1_iyb2w8f wrote
What are we going to all move to China and vote? If we can’t fix it here then how do we get China to stop?
420ohms t1_iybrjx0 wrote
Voting here doesn't even work.
BassmanBiff t1_iye2vph wrote
Yes it does, it just doesn't fix everything immediately. There really isn't a more impactful thing you can do with the hour or whatever it takes to do it. It's more than worth doing while pursuing other activism.
Put differently, voting is not sufficient, but it is necessary.
Whitewing424 t1_iyeqprn wrote
Voting is a useful form of harm reduction, but it doesn't solve systemic problems. Voting is something everyone should do because the effort is minimal, but nobody should expect it to be sufficient, as you say.
BassmanBiff t1_iye2fh5 wrote
We should absolutely try to fix it here, but calling it out everywhere is important and doesn't stop us from working on it at home. Import restrictions and slightly better consumer info are about all we can do about China, and while that's obviously not going to fix the problem, it still helps to do it.
Whitewing424 t1_iyeqxxl wrote
Given how many US corps are involved in both what China is doing and the US prison situation, don't hold your breath on those import restrictions.
US needs major reforms first.
BassmanBiff t1_iyewssd wrote
I was talking about ones we already have.
I'm under no illusion that those will fix anything, or that they're perfectly designed to target large and small companies equally, or that they're somehow more important than addressing our own problems. I'm saying that we can and should do both at once, and whichever front people choose to yell about, they should be encouraged so that we can redirect that energy instead of simply stamping it out whenever people choose the "wrong" issue.
monkeyheadyou t1_iyau2i6 wrote
Both are equally acted on now. And will continue to be connected forever. Plain fact is that until we fix the one we have power over we can never hope to affect the other. Make your representative fix ours and then they will have some standing to demand change in China.
BassmanBiff t1_iye4o3n wrote
Totally agreed that fixing problems at home is probably the best way to start trying to fix problems abroad, but I also don't think they're mutually exclusive. Let's absolutely fix the problems here, but calling it out elsewhere doesn't stop us from doing that.
If anything I think it helps to use China as a mirror to say "Look, we hate this when they do it, so why the fuck are we?"
monkeyheadyou t1_iyeekgn wrote
I was going to say "smart" stuff about us not doing anything then I read some of your comments with links to us doing something. so I will shut up and donate
Whitewing424 t1_iybustq wrote
Except we can do nothing about the Chinese problem that isn't an act of war, but we can theoretically solve the problem at home without invading another country. Going to the UN or using economic sanctions isn't going to work, and could escalate into war anyway.
Further, it's hypocritical to complain about what China is or isn't doing when we aren't putting in any effort to talk about the problem at home.
Fix your own house, then worry about what someone else is doing in theirs. If we want to stop China from doing bad things, then maybe we should have a moral leg to stand on first, or it's just going to go nowhere.
BassmanBiff t1_iye5zxh wrote
It's not either/or. Totally agreed that the best way to fix this is to fix it at home first, and we are trying to do that. But that goes both ways; we can use people yelling about China as leverage to encourage change at home, too.
I think it's self-defeating to only mention either of these problems when we're trying to call somebody a hypocrite for caring about the other one. It just shuts people down, it doesn't encourage them to actually do more. We should encourage people to shout about this stuff so we can redirect it, not simply shut it down because it feels righteous to call out "virtue signaling."
Whitewing424 t1_iyeq6ud wrote
The trouble is that it's a very common propaganda tactic to draw attention to other nations in order to make it easier to hide what happens at home. People have a finite amount of energy, attention, and outrage. If it is channeled against China, then it isn't being channeled at home. Look at the sheer number of news articles about what China is doing compared to the US prison situation. I wouldn't be surprised if its more than 10:1.
BassmanBiff t1_iyezslj wrote
Attention is limited, but also fragile. It comes from whatever people are passionate about, and shutting that down just makes people disengage, it doesn't get them fired up about something else -- least of all the thing that was important to whoever shut them down. So it's not a decision about "we have 10 attention, where do we put it," it's about "what generates more attention for us to use in the first place."
It's obviously selfish for people to disengage just because their feelings are hurt, but it's also just how people work whether we like it or not. I think it's important to acknowledge that, stoke whatever passions people have around this topic in general, and then encourage that passion to go further by redirecting it where it can do the most good.
Just policing which topics people get to feel passionate about, telling them to shut up and do better when they choose the wrong ones, doesn't really make anyone active for our preferred cause even if it's objectively more important. It does make us feel good to shout people down, though, by feeling like we're more aware than they are. I think it's very easy to convince ourselves that we're fighting the good fight when we're really just stoking our own ego.
No_Caregiver_5740 t1_iyb1w2t wrote
The thing is that yay say things about both so brave. But you only actually do something about 1 case its just purely virtue signalling
BassmanBiff t1_iye3dvh wrote
We are trying! If we can't do something about one until we do something about the other, then we'll never do anything about either.
nebkelly t1_iyb9lim wrote
A good example is Americans attaking Qatar about imported workers when they have as many as 25 million exploited and undocumented workers in the US. Apparently they make up like 50% of farm workers and 75% of factory workers there. And way more than 6,500 die on the job every year. Also, the US is a developed, first world country lol.
I honestly can't remember the last time a US politician, media person or podcaster talked about it. They talk about cracking down on border control sometimes. But never about outcomes for the existing population.
They have quietly recreated an undercaste class that was lost when actual slavery was banned.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybcpp2 wrote
Try watching Fox News. They have Never stopped talking about it. Nor anyone else who is or has lived on the southern border. All sides of the political spectrum. For YEARS. Just because you don’t like the source doesn’t make it ok not to be aware of what is going on.
nebkelly t1_iybkgta wrote
I follow US politics pretty closely for a foreigner and it used to be an important topic on the national agenda around the 2000s. It was raised during campaigns, debates etc. Parties had policies. International news ran stories on it.
Misrepresenting it as a southern/border states problem is the level the conversation has devolved to now. This is a group of exploited Americans that is spread nationwide and larger in number than Asians.
I believe the moral failure is simple economics/greed. Removing those workers from the US, or granting them rights and paying them properly and giving them social services, would pretty much tank the US economy. They are responsible for 15% or something of all US GDP.
There is nothing that really compares to it outside of the US and its become a shelved subject because of the economic boon from allowing it to continue unresolved.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iyblnms wrote
For a FOREIGNER, Whose opinion matters fuck to me, Is based upon “what other people have told me in the past” As opposed to actually living on both sides of the border or living with this shit.
The USA ain’t perfect but it’s at least better than where you’re living. I’ve lived in four countries. I’ve never been anywhere better
You are like a little girl, telling her mother what sex is like, Because you read something about it on the bathroom wall..
nebkelly t1_iybojbt wrote
You seem to have been triggered pretty hard by someone showing empathy lol. Why are you going into bat for a system that exploits millions of people.
And contributing to the problem by conflating border control (future immigrants) with a humanitarian problem (existing immigrants).
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybp3o1 wrote
Oh, you got me! Reread my last comment, last paragraph. Good day, and good luck with your life. Try working on whatever you call home and keep up your end of the bargain.
nebkelly t1_iybpvm4 wrote
So you're now arguing that Americans should not comment about workers in Qatar?
Senyu t1_iyansdw wrote
What supply chains are involved? Edit: Informative replies, thanks.
Whitewing424 t1_iyaqhz3 wrote
Prisoners make everything man. In texas alone (the largest unpaid prison labor program among the states), prisoners make soap, food products, perform animal husbandry, clothing, and are thus involved in every industry that relies on such products. California uses prisoners as firefighters (30 to 40% of CA firefighters are prisoners) and they are paid around $2 an hour (good luck finding any supply companies in CA that aren't reliant on such prison labor to not burn down). In Mississippi, prisoners are used to clear land for agriculture and the majority of farmland there was built by the hands of prisoners. Federal prisoners making less than $1 an hour make tons of things, ranging from furniture to a tremendous amount of military equipment our soldiers use. In Georgia, prisoners perform a lot of the sanitization work, and work on landfills, recycling, and even upkeeping golf courses (yes, for private clubs). These make up to $3 a day, while totally unpaid prisoners clean the streets, perform transporation work, and janitorial duties.
All around the country, prisoners are rented out to 3rd party companies for labor purposes. Major corporations like AT&T contract much of their work out to 3rd party companies that do this work, and those third party companies use unpaid (or extremely poorly paid) prison labor to win the lowest bidder contracts. Every state uses prison labor for a variety of work (much of which is either unpaid or vastly underpaid).
Things many businesses rely on, like food, food trays for the cafeteria, signs, call center work, paper products (like calendars) and far more are made by prisoners. Hell, even the railroads were originally built via convict leasing, and many of the biggest offenders are still around today as huge corporations after getting rich off of it (Like United States Steel Corporation).
Our entire country depends heavily on prison slave labor. There is a reason the US has the largest prison population on the planet (both in relative and absolute terms). We have 4% of the world's population, and 22% of the world's prison population. It encourages lawmakers to make unfair laws and law enforcment to go out of their way to find offenders to keep the prisons full.
mynamejulian t1_iyb3vdf wrote
CA firefighters are what surprise me. Seems like there would be plenty of opportunities to escape if you wanted to
Whitewing424 t1_iybsmwk wrote
Only lower security prisoners are used as firefighters, and there is still a substantial amount of supervision involved. CA has a lot of wildfires and needs a lot of firefighters. It's a dangerous job and few are willing to do it, while the pay isn't that great for such a risky job. So they've got two choices: use prisoners for close to free labor, or pay firefighters more to attract more hires. I'm sure there's the occasional escape. Here's a news story about one in 2021: https://lawandcrime.com/crime/california-prisoner-steals-fire-engine-tries-to-escape-custody-while-fighting-wildfire-video/
They went with the cheaper, vastly more unethical option.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybbmke wrote
Seems like they are being punished, or something.
[deleted] t1_iybrtwf wrote
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Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybspmz wrote
Didn’t say that. Do not try and put your words into my mouth. If you’re a convicted criminal, in the USA, working while incarcerated is a privilege. For which they volunteer. It’s that or simply sit your ass in the cell block, no commissary money earned. Try and find other ways to pay for your soap, toothbrush, toothpaste or anything else. Unless you have something keeping your commissary account full of money, you work. Remember, it’s the Criminal who put the Criminal in prison. Some places require the Criminal to work, in order to pay for SOMETHING- food, guards etc.
Don’t do the Crime, if you can’t do the time.
Whitewing424 t1_iybtav2 wrote
So you did say that then, it's their fault they're put in a situation where poorly paid or unpaid labor is the best thing they've got going, and have little to no choice but to work. Nevermind that laws are frequently improperly enforced, and are often even written specifically to keep the prisons full (instead of making society safer or healthier).
Claiming you didn't suggest something and then doubling down on it is an odd strategy.
And are you suggesting that there are no innocents falsely convicted as well?
The prison system in the US is a textbook example of a perverse incentive.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybuslv wrote
Again, I never said anything like that Criminals, committed crimes.
They pay. That’s what I said.
[deleted] t1_iyc7h5e wrote
Or ya know criminals could just serve their time or be rehabilitated and NOT be used as slaves for free/overwhelmingly cheap labor. Just a thought
ImNotTheGrimReaper t1_iyd5xqv wrote
Agreed. If you commit a crime no matter how big or small then you deserve to be a slave.
Badtrainwreck t1_iyao9dz wrote
Slavery is used in American prisons systems, so it’s products that are associated with that in the largest and most government protected sense.
Secondly the enslavement of disabled Americans forced to work for spare change so you can get a fucking pre made sandwich at a gas station
DreamOfTheEndlessSky t1_iyb9lgf wrote
Many sorts of things. Products ("to produce everything from mattresses, spectacles,road signs and body armour"), agriculture and firefighting through "convict leasing" programs ("Convict leasing was largely banned in the 20th century, but has once more grown in popularity as immigrant labor has become harder to find. Multiple states have now passed legislation allowing agricultural businesses to use prison labor when they cannot find enough workers to hire, and most prison workers are paid significantly less than non-prison labor.").
It's rather widespread.
Earlier this month, we doubled the number of states to have banned involuntary labor in prison … bringing it up to a heady eight, if challenges don't roll any back. We need more states to do so, and the Federal system as well.
shainotshai t1_iyc72px wrote
Yeah, the US should import some mirrors
uraffuroos t1_iyb2c8w wrote
but this isn't a bad thing in China?
Whitewing424 t1_iybrzcf wrote
No, but it's exceedingly hypocritical as an American to fixate on what China may or may not be doing when we're doing horrific things here.
Fix your own house, then criticize that of others.
Itchy_Focus_4500 t1_iybd1vn wrote
Apparently, according to many here, America bad. China kinda bad but, America ‘worse-r-est!’ That’s my take.
[deleted] t1_iydoedf wrote
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hawtpot87 t1_iyc2a9v wrote
Xi approves.
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