AbsurdlyClearWater t1_iu9ge0c wrote
Why does "diverse" always mean the same thing? The UK has a lot more south Asians than black people but for some reason they don't get included when talking about "diversity"
Anyways House of the Dragon obviously did it a lot better. If you can get past the silliness of the blood-obsessed Valyrians seeming not to notice that this one family looks completely different than everyone else (all the talk about "keeping blood pure" doesn't really help), it actually is coherent. You have one foreign house that is fiercely proud of their descent, and when they intermarry the children look like the combination of their parents.
The method of Rings of Power of just randomly making every fourth character black is just silly (feels like a decade ago this would've been called "tokenism" and universally detested). How do you have these insular communities in an ancient world where people are not homogenous? Are these cultures strictly against race-mixing? They could've easily just set one of the plotlines farther south in Harad and everything would have made sense. But maybe part of getting the brownie points for inclusivity is to make it make as little sense as possible, to show that you're doing it just because you're so ideologically committed to it.
The reality is that these companies have internal and external racial quotas they're working to fulfill. Artistic considerations are second. But if you're going to do it, at least make a serious attempt at having it make sense. House of the Dragon did, to its benefit. Rings of Power did not.
user_dan t1_iu9pwg0 wrote
>The method of Rings of Power of just randomly making every fourth character black is just silly (feels like a decade ago this would've been called "tokenism" and universally detested).
They went to each Middle Earth group and added one or two non-white characters. It's the old 90s and early 00s flavor of "diversity". On top of that, the finale either killed or excluded almost all of their "diverse" cast.
Hollywood has had a diversity problem for a long time, especially compared to other forms of entertainment, like music and sports. I feel like the diversity in RoP was done in bad faith.
GenericAustin t1_iu9m1bt wrote
>The UK has a lot more south Asians than black people but for some reason they don't get included when talking about "diversity"
UK shows are kinda weird in this way. Blacks make up 3% of the UK population but UK shows make that percentage seem way higher
So I think black actors find it much easier to get roles there than other races. I am not sure if that is negatively affecting some groups of people or not, I guess it can be considered okay because blacks probably found it hard to get roles many years ago
ConnorMc1eod t1_iuasprj wrote
I mean, every single show/ip in the US has a black dude in it these days and they are ~6-7% of the population. It's not just a UK thing. Working with a lot of East Asians many of them are surprised when they come here and find so many more white people.
Chlodio t1_iub7e06 wrote
USA has two times as many Latinos as afro-Americans, yet from watching Hollywood movies you would be led to believe the opposite.
ConnorMc1eod t1_iubjbfh wrote
Agreed, not even close even.
sambalaya t1_iuccxl5 wrote
Would love a citation because this isn’t true
sambalaya t1_iuccrdz wrote
Do you just make up statistics?
ConnorMc1eod t1_iud2az0 wrote
?
Black Americans are ~12% of the US, presumably half of them are male.
What statistic did I make up?
sambalaya t1_iudk59v wrote
I own my mistake because I did not see “dude” and thought you were stating 6% as a whole
ConnorMc1eod t1_iudvwvl wrote
No problem my dude
zakattack799 t1_iucpkct wrote
Uk is still majority white. Like maybe 10% minorities 80 to 85% white
stomach t1_iu9s2ud wrote
tbh, any media being made for general audiences (in the western world) would be kinda dumb to not capitalize on black culture, whether it's a fair representation of your regional demographics or not. hip hop has absolutely conquered the world in terms of culture. since the 80s/90s it's just been a blanket laid over everything. it's nearing its final stages working its way into country music.
Powermac8500 t1_iu9xi3c wrote
>a decade ago this would've been called "tokenism"
Tolkienism
Chlodio t1_iub6sig wrote
>How do you have these insular communities in an ancient world where people are not homogenous?
Particularly with the Numenoreans, who are supposed to be isolationists. It is like if a third of Japan had been Indians during the Perry Expeditions, despite them having been in isolation for centuries.
Regent Miriel is black despite her father being white, and Tolkien explicitly describes her skin tone as white.
ConnorMc1eod t1_iuatr9u wrote
Ehhhh the black Valyrians makes sense, how does it not?
They are a different blood line than the Targaryens also from Old Valyria. Old Valyria is much more racially diverse than Westeros especially with the lands beyond the immediate coastline where the Free Cities and Old Valyria are.
yoaver t1_iujjtme wrote
Valyrian is an ethnicity in the books. And Valyrians were very much not diverse at all. They thought they are superior, and it was taboo for them to marry the "lesser" races, especially because their genes comtain the magic dragon connections.
Black Velaryons don't make sense from a lore perspective, and it's kinda hilarious whenever Corlys talks about his "pure valyrian blood", but it doesn't matter much to the show and the acting is still great.
It's at least a bit better than the pure tokenism in Rings.
ConnorMc1eod t1_iujl81z wrote
But are "races" defined by the same parameters we define races in current year Earth? Valyrian being an ethnicity is irrelevant because we don't know exactly what defines that ethnicity.
All I remember was blonde, fair hair and purple eyes being indicative of Valyrian blood. Nothing specific to skin color.
Regardless I am glad you and I (and basically everyone else) agrees it's superior to how RoP handles it with no attempt to even hand wave it away with a goofy explanation.
[deleted] t1_iua207s wrote
[deleted]
Autisthrowaway304 t1_iu9ug4d wrote
>The UK has a lot more south Asians than black people but for some reason they don't get included when talking about "diversity"
Quick Answer? Most filming takes place in London where the majority of the british/african descended population live so they get opportunities that elsewhere would be snapped up by Asians.
Also it probably helps that nobody gives a fuck about Asian diversity, while african diversity is appealing to any potential american audience.
LightThatIgnitesAll t1_iua1vcs wrote
>Most filming takes place in London where the majority of the british/african descended population live so they get opportunities that elsewhere would be snapped up by Asians.
There's more asians in London than black people. By quite a large gap.
>probably helps that nobody gives a fuck about Asian diversity, while african diversity is appealing to any potential american audience.
And that's what people are calling out. It really isn't "diverse" if they only care about seeing black people and not asians (or other groups).
SpreadYourAss t1_iubzk5g wrote
>The method of Rings of Power of just randomly making every fourth character black is just silly
Maybe I'm crazy, but I honestly thought the diversity in HotD made even less sense. I can accept people from random sections being a different skin color. Maybe a group of elves evolved to be black. Maybe a group of dwarves lived separately at some point, and had a different skin color. I can make up SOME excuses for it to kinda make sense.
Valerians being black literally makes absolutely no damn sense. The are literally Targaryens copies and have lived right alongside them for centuries on the exact same location.
How can one family possibly be all white and one be all black? It's even weirder than RoP.
ryraps5892 t1_iu9r1oi wrote
I noticed the same haphazard placement in lord of the rings and I think I appreciated it more for that reason 🤷♂️ they gave all the middle-earth races representation, but didn’t get preachy about it.
ThreeLittlePuigs t1_iu9r91i wrote
I think they did the castings race blind vs race conscious. I think race blind is better. I can ignore that some elves are black and some are white, I don’t need a genealogical explanation of why. It’s a fantasy tv show.
WordsAreSomething t1_iu9hjpo wrote
Diverse means having actors from different ethnic and cultural backgrounds. That's it.
LightThatIgnitesAll t1_iu9ohok wrote
That's what it means but that's not how the term is often used when talking about media.
WordsAreSomething t1_iu9t4y1 wrote
Nope that's still what it means
LightThatIgnitesAll t1_iu9tfon wrote
Yes and I said "that's what it means."
WordsAreSomething t1_iu9udnw wrote
And I'm saying that your second part is wrong. It means the same in any context.
donkeylipsh t1_iu9r4fs wrote
So HoD tokenized them, where RoP simply made them a natural part of the world, and the conclusion is HoD did it better?
>How do you have these insular communities in an ancient world where people are not homogenous? Are these cultures strictly against race-mixing?
RoP has multiple offspring of mixed race. Both elf and human, and dark and light. As well as an entire race of elves that migrated from a magical realm. We also have proof of migrating hunters and hobbits. As well as the Southlands becoming refugees and the aftermath of Morgoth's war causing mass migrations.
So if you actually paid attention, RoP is a world where cultures develop their skin tone homogeneously, but will regularly encounter and mix with other homogeneous cultures.
But please, don't let that get in the way of good circle jerk. I'll see my way out and let you haters go off.
Solid_Rice OP t1_iu9v6uf wrote
>So HoD tokenized them, where RoP simply made them a natural part of the world
Its the opposite. RoP sprinkled diversity in a jarring way that made no sense to its world.
HoP did it in a way that made sense. The same way Baratheons have Black hair and Targaryens have silver hair, Valryons have Dark skin.
They're a full flavor, nor sprinkles.
-OrangeLightning4 t1_iua2ssv wrote
>in a jarring way
What does that even mean?
"Oh look, a few of the Southlander men are black. And as we all know, if a character doesn't justify being black in the world, they shouldn't be there."
Solid_Rice OP t1_iuahd82 wrote
jarring might be too strong of a word.
not believable is more appropriate.
I'm glad my folks are in there I just wished they made it more believable instead of feeling like corporate diversity.
HoD did a bang up job in that department.
donkeylipsh t1_iu9xcmo wrote
So in HoD they're allowed to have homogeneous cultures with a token family that somehow never mixed, despite the show having lighter skin for their mixed offspring. So the show contradicts your head lore. But you have no problem forgiving it.
But when you incorrectly assess that RoP has strictly homogeneous cultures, you use that as justification for your hate.
Make it make sense.
ihohjlknk t1_iu9ys7d wrote
> So in HoD they're allowed to have homogeneous cultures with a token family that somehow never mixed
These families regularly commit incest. They're not in the business of marrying outside of Old Valyria.
donkeylipsh t1_iua10m8 wrote
So HoD is allowed to have the first mixed race coupling in thousands of years. And you will completely accept that without any questioning of how they would really maintain this skin tone.
But when RoP goes deep into world building to show you why there would be different homogeneous evolution with uncommon but not unheard of intermingling of species and races, you cry foul and refuse to accept it.
Naw. There is no logical foundation in your argument. You simply like HoD more than RoP. And so when the show runners give you the lore they created for their representation, you choose to just accept what HoD says, but you demand we hold RoP under a microscope and evaluate if what they say is anthropologically correct. GTFO
Solid_Rice OP t1_iuagqfa wrote
> But when RoP goes deep into world building to show you why there would be different homogeneous evolution with uncommon but not unheard of intermingling of species and races
.....when did they do that? lol
the Harfoots who are scared of their own shadows somehow mixed with another group?
donkeylipsh t1_iue3ee0 wrote
I like how you avoided trying to refute any the reasons why the Valeryons in HotD don't make any sense and jump right to attacking RoP. It's almost as if you have no interest in a holding HotD to the same standards as RoP. But that would mean you're arguing in bad faith, and you wouldn't do that would you?
Throughout the whole show and multiple replies from me. Clearly you haven't been paying attention.
So scared of their own shadows? Tell you didn't watch the show without telling me you didn't watch the show.
They befriended a stranger. Announced their presence to clearly powerful beings. And fought them.
So we have verifiable proof that hobbits will interact with other species.
When you migrate, you will encounter other tribes. If you paid attention. Some get left behind. Not all of them will die. Some will survive and make tribes of their own. Who will have their own genetic traits. And who will also migrate. Having chance encounters with other hobbits form relationships and have offspring.
The fact is, there is more anthropological accuracy in RoP than there is in HotD tokenizing a single family.
But you like HotD and you don't like RoP. And so you demand RoP conforms to your head canon, and you accept whatever the showrunners say for HotD.
[deleted] t1_iuaik8a wrote
[removed]
Solid_Rice OP t1_iuagisk wrote
> that as justification for your hate.
lol this is funny considering I'm Black.
I'm glad both had Black actors cashing checks.
The overall point was verisimilitude.
Its fantasy but make it seem real if you want people to invest time in the story.
donkeylipsh t1_iue2jpx wrote
When did you express hate for any race? We're talking about your hate of a show here. The color of your skin has nothing to do with you hating on RoP.
And my overall point, is you are showing a double standard for you evaluations of the shows and how they did representation.
For RoP, You ignore refuse to accept the show runners lore for their representation, you demand anthropological accuracy, and when it's pointed out to you that they've actually SHOWN you how there would be mixing of homogeneous species and races, you reject that evidence.
But alls HotD has is one quote form the showrunners, and you put your microscope down and just accept what they say. You stopped to consider, wait, how the fuck did this one family stay black when everyone else is white? And before you say "incest", the mixing of races would have come long before any cultural norms of incest would ever be established.
Face it: You like HotD so you will accept any shortcomings. You hate RoP, so you will attack it for anything.
That's cool. But don't pretend you're evaluating things objectively. Own your hypocrisy and double standards.
btbrian t1_iu9zx4z wrote
If it was "jarring" for you to see people of color represented in film without a deep lore reason for why they have darker-colored skin, you're a racist. Full stop.
Solid_Rice OP t1_iuagxra wrote
lol holy shit! I guess I'm racist against my own people because I wanted the story to be believable. wow.
ralf_ t1_iuag71c wrote
They qualified it that it has to be consistent with its film world. Seeing every fourth citizen in Wakanda be a blonde would be jarring too.
ryraps5892 t1_iu9uajd wrote
I thought the same. These Downvoters are the same grown-ass children crying about little mermaid, fuck em
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments