Submitted by MarvelsGrantMan136 t3_zvrepl in television
Blackdragonking13 t1_j1qxw01 wrote
Everyone always talks about how stylish and cool Bleach is, and they’re not wrong, but I’ve always thought an under appreciated element of the series was it’s protagonist.
Of the “Big Three”, Ichigo was the only one who didn’t have a head full of rocks. He was angst-y, but not overly so. He was introspective in a way that you still don’t see often in protagonists of the genre.
Granted there’s a lot of bias from me as I was introduced to the series as a brooding teenager, but I always related to Ichigo more than any other anime character of the time.
SoCalThrowAway7 t1_j1rdbll wrote
I think he also benefits from his motives, at the end of the day ichigo just wants to protect what’s important to him and have a chill time with his friends and family. He’s not always shouting about becoming the head captain, or the shinigami king. He just wants the strength to protect what’s important to him. He has lapses in self confidence you don’t often see in the genre too.
InnocentTailor t1_j1rm5tt wrote
Definitely! His goals are more profound than a mere title. It also keeps him relevant for a lot longer in stories because protecting loved ones is a lifelong desire.
SPorterBridges t1_j1t5g1u wrote
> I think he also benefits from his motives, at the end of the day ichigo just wants to protect what’s important to him and have a chill time with his friends and family.
Generic shounen bad guy: "Do you even know what you are fighting for? Why do you do fight?!"
Generic shounen good guy: "...to protect my friends!"
Maloth_Warblade t1_j1tt1yf wrote
The direct threat against him and his family is so obvious at times it works though
Keepitsway t1_j1uo7xb wrote
Generic shounen antagonist defeat cry: "But I'm perfect! I'm the absolute of the absolute! How can this be possible?!"
Generic shounen protagonist response: "Because you didn't love your friends/give up being antagonistic. I hope you become a better version of yourself one day."
Generic shounen antagonist: "Friends? Have I been wrong this whole time?"
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Quirkyusername420 t1_j1tc352 wrote
I actually disagree with everything you just said. He doesn't just wanna protect his friends and family. Yes that is his characters writing explicitly but he enjoys fighting and kicking ass. He is petty and has a massive ego and it hurts when enemies stomp him. He wants to get back at his enemies, in fact in its most extreme case it gets in the way of protecting his friends( Ichigo telling Orihime to heal Ulquiorra so he could fight him himself). . This side of his character is almost always implicit which is why Kubo is such a talented writer. Remember how Ulquiorra stopped his Getsuga tenshou with his bare hands? He got back at Ulquiorra by stopping Ulquiorra's spear at point blank range in Vasto Lorde form. He did the same thing against Aizen. Remember how Ichigo stopped Aizen's sword wit his hand and what he told him? It's also why he didn't instantly kill Byakuya back in soul society arc. He wanted to get back at him for making fun of his small bankai and also for absolutely destroying him back in human world. If he just wanted to save Rukia he could have just killed Byakuya right there and then. Another instance I can think of right now is his fight against Grimmjow. I think he was actually enjoying that fight so much that he held himself back just to drag the fight. And when Orihime yelled his name he kind of came back to his senses. It reminded him of why he was there so he stops Grimmjows claw and says " sorry Grimmjow, I have to end this".
Maloth_Warblade t1_j1tt5k7 wrote
Full Hollow, not Vasto Lorde.
APiousCultist t1_j1vbpd1 wrote
> He is petty and has a massive ego and it hurts when enemies stomp him.
I think being upset about being stomped is pretty universal across everyone. Most of the examples you've listed are more a sort of dramatic irony than the character actually turning to camera and shouting "You see what I just did?"
Sputniki t1_j1rwked wrote
That’s every anime lead though? They always wanna be strong, but even more so, they wanna do the right thing.
If anything having a main character prioritize being strong over doing the right thing - now that would be an actually special character.
master6494 t1_j1rxh4j wrote
That's just Goku mate.
[deleted] t1_j1t64ux wrote
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Sputniki t1_j1s9tnn wrote
Nah Goku would absolutely do the right thing over getting stronger. His sense of righteousness / defending his loved ones is incredibly strong.
eides-of-march t1_j1schxt wrote
Goku literally doomed 11 universes to erasure because he wanted to fight strong people
solversavis t1_j1sf5fg wrote
Goku is notoriously selfish for a main protagonist. While Ichigo could be a subversion with his extensive self reflection, Goku could be said to take the opposite extreme. He once gave a senzu bean to his sons would be murderer, never once questioning if maybe that wasn't the right move.
And it definitely wasn't. The murder-suicide on king kai was completely avoidable. Even when his family wished him back he decides to fuck off and train for several years. Dudes a deadbeat dad by any definition. He chose to dies rather than stay with his family.
THETRILOBSTER t1_j1syewh wrote
>He chose to dies rather than stay with his family.
He said he did that for Earth and his family's protection, since it seemed as though trouble had followed him around for the better part of this life.
But yes, poor Chi Chi. :( That woman may have a stick up her ass but she puts up with so much from that man.
czartaylor t1_j1szkp9 wrote
Honestly, the sensu bean to cell is probably the most defensible punt made in DBZ. Because it was returning the favor to cell after he got his perfect form and decided to not kill everyone (even though it was well, well within his power to do so) but give everyone a chance to power up and fight him 1 on 1. The sensu bean was cell's one.
Also Goku was sure Gohan had that one, bean or no. Which he ultimately did have, the only reason it got close is because Gohan out of no where started to channel his inner goku.
It wasn't a good idea at any level, but it's definitely understandable why Goku, a notoriously lenient fighter with a lot of pride and honor, to do it for him. It definitely wasn't as egregious a punt as a) letting cell get his perfect form, b) gohan not killing cell when he had the chance the first time, c) krillin not destroying 18, d) 18 not running when vegeta was busy decimating imperfect cell.
Goku's many, many punts in the buu arc however.....
kerriazes t1_j1tn473 wrote
Perfect Cell not killing everyone, even if capable, is not a reason to owe him anything, what the fuck?
By that logic, everyone on Earth owes everyone on Earth a favor because everyone on Earth is theoretically capable of killing any other person.
Giving Perfect Cell a Senzu bean directly lead to Cell evolving further.
Goku trusting Gohan is not a valid reason to endanger everyone on the planet.
Goku is reckless and thoughtless, and regularly puts everyone else at risk.
Leshawkcomics t1_j1t3uo6 wrote
I remember that arc. It was one of the trio-de-dangers who insisted goku did that in-universe. No less than 3 times in the arc did they point out that said take is absolute bullshit.
Like, 3 different angels, including the head angel said “The 11 universes were going to die anyway. Goku’s suggestion is the ONLY reason they survived because he convinced God to give them a fighting chance.”
Do… Do people not actually watch the show?
eides-of-march t1_j1xr4b2 wrote
Reminder that goku did all of this before he was told that all 12 were set to be erased. It doesn’t matter what the end result was if the intention was still there. Either way, there’s plenty of other instances of him being a total asshole ranging from being a deadbeat dad to actually murdering King Kai
Leshawkcomics t1_j1y3zs8 wrote
His intention was to have a battle.
There is nothing wrong with that.
Also, would you like me to prove you wrong on the deadbeat dad argument?
SoCalThrowAway7 t1_j1sosfg wrote
Goku gave cell a sensu bean to Cell to heal up so he could watch gohan, his barely teenage son, have a cooler fight that he absolutely did not want to have…
czartaylor t1_j1sz5j0 wrote
Shout out to when Goku could have killed Majin Buu but refused to do so so someone else could tag in and finish Buu off.
and then failed to do so and Goku had to tag back in.
.....twice.
Leshawkcomics t1_j1t4gei wrote
If you were in goku’s position, and your teenage son was the only person in the world who stood a chance, would you have him die after watching his world get destroyed because he’s too young to be fighting?
Would you refuse the senzu bean?
Cell has the personality flaws of frieza, piccolo, and vegeta. All think they’re invincible when they’re at 100% power and can be caught off guard. All go full ‘blow up everything instead of finishing the fight’ the moment they think that their opponent might have an edge on them.
Would you refuse the senzu bean if it was your son?
Would you have refused to let gohan fight?
kerriazes t1_j1tn9s4 wrote
If you trusted Gohan to beat Cell at 100%, the sensible and not reckless thing would be letting Gohan fight Cell who is not at 100%.
Leshawkcomics t1_j1uq832 wrote
Even knowing that cell range quits when he thinks he might lose?
Because his most obvious personality traits come from people who have done exactly that?
Cause Goku straight up told Gohan several times to finish him off asap for that specific reason cause he knew cell was like that.
kerriazes t1_j1uu8v4 wrote
None of those points are in support of your argument.
Because those things still happened despite giving Cell a Senzu bean. He still blew himself up after losing to Gohan.
That wouldn't have changed had Goku refrained from healing Cell, except without the Senzu bean, Gohan would have had an easier time of cornering Cell.
Which might have left Gohan with enough energy to do something about it, or hell, even defeat Cell before he gets the chance to even think about blowing himself up.
Which is precisely why Goku is reckless.
Leshawkcomics t1_j1ux02l wrote
Ah. So it's a matter of not knowing or caring about context.
I.E "Gohan choosing not to finish cell off once he had already powered up"
And don't forget the fact CELL SPECIFICALLY STATED THAT TRYING TO EVEN MOVE HIM WILL BLOW HIM UP FASTER.
Did you not watch the show or read the manga? Gohan easily had the energy to finish cell off and didn't use it.
I repeat he EASILY could have finished cell off at any point once he reached SS2 and didn't due to a twisted bout of sadism.
Goku used the senzu bean to stop cell from doing anything reckless if he was wary and low on energy. Which made cell so confident he STOPPED ATTACKING GOHAN to help push him to super Saiyan 2, thinking that at full power he could easily handle whatever that form could throw at him.
It was Gohan himself who just kept doing near fatal damage and waiting for cell to regenerate so he can do it again. He wasn't tired. The senzu bean made it easier for him. Pay attention to the actual story, not the abridged series.
Monski616 t1_j1srpa9 wrote
I love goku but no man, he literally gives cell a sensu bean so cell can beat the shit out of his only son(at the time), then got himself and king Kai suicide bombed.
Then he agitated a god to the point Beerus was gonna destroy his planet.
Oh yeah then he got 11 universes erased from existence just because he wanted to fight strong people.
InnocentTailor t1_j1sawer wrote
Yeah. He may be a bonehead, but he isn’t selfish. I recall that there are other DB characters that prioritize strength over righteousness: dark mirrors for our hero.
Sputniki t1_j1scdrw wrote
Yep. Faced with getting stronger or saving the planet or the ones he loves, it's an easy decision every time for Goku.
StarsMine t1_j1sedu4 wrote
Yea, his answer was getting stronger.
SoCalThrowAway7 t1_j1sow6f wrote
He literally was like “nah I’m not gonna come back to life to protect the planet with you guys, you got it handled, I’m gonna stay dead so I can get stronger here.”
King-Of-Throwaways t1_j1s7jg5 wrote
If you want anime protagonists who aren’t heroic, maybe look into Evangelion, Chainsaw Man, or Fate Zero. They all subvert or dissect the hero archetype.
[deleted] t1_j1rxguw wrote
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SuspiriaGoose t1_j1sjffi wrote
However, all the ‘he’s half every race ever in the story’ destined chosen one schtick is more than a little tiring and definitely common in shounen.
AdministrationWaste7 t1_j1t8vnr wrote
I can't think of many shonen that does this. It's a very bleach thing.
SuspiriaGoose t1_j1tcauj wrote
Naruto and One Piece both have some of this, with Naruto having a demon fox spirit and being the son of the Hokage (which makes his dream of being Hokage a lot less inspiring and charming) and Luffy seemingly related to the Dragon, the guy who hid the One Piece (I did stop reading OP a while ago, but that seemed to be what was being heavily implied then).
Full metal Alchemist has a bit of this with Ed and Al being the son of Hohenheim, but that’s much better handled.
My problem with Bleach is that Ichigo just has alllllll of it. Son of a noble family, son of a special genius Quincy, merged with an experimental hollow created by Aizen, potentially a son of the Soul King as well, a Fullbringer, a Vizard, and probably part demon by the time the Hell arc is halfway through.
That’s irritating and takes away his agency. At a certain point, every other character becomes more interesting than him because they’re not destined to be the Hero ™ .
Sqiddd t1_j1tgds2 wrote
Monkey D. Dragon(Luffy’s father) didn’t hide One Piece. Man’s never seen the One Piece treasure.
As stated in the intro of the very first episode and every episode since, Gold Roger, the Pirate King, hid the One Piece, as he’s the one who found it.
kane49 t1_j1uay6g wrote
His father and grandfather are two of the strongest people (ok you can argue about dragon) to ever live and some other stuff that i dont want to spoil here.
SuspiriaGoose t1_j1vmrvr wrote
Sorry, his grandfather,Gol D. Roger. I read it back in 2010, gimme a break. Still from an important bloodline that gives him a massive unearned edge.
Sqiddd t1_j1vphgs wrote
They’re not related at all bro. You can stop
SuspiriaGoose t1_j1w0m2o wrote
So their names being Monkey D. And Gol D. Means nothing? Doubt.
Sqiddd t1_j1w1cb1 wrote
As far as we know, it’s means something other than being related by blood yes.
Cause I know the series where as you’re speaking out your ass
SuspiriaGoose t1_j1w6qln wrote
I stopped reading it in 2010 and am only recently picking it up again. I was merely noting that I tire of main characters in these stories being ‘special’ in some way,often related to their heritage. Luffy is far from the worst in that category, so honestly he’s not that bothersome to me on that score, but there is something there and it is a little annoying.
But go off, I guess. If I’m not a super fan, I guess I’m not allowed an opinion. But I did stop reading for a reason.
Sqiddd t1_j1w8nte wrote
You stopped reading yet spouted shit you have no knowledge of.
SuspiriaGoose t1_j1w91rz wrote
Hey, I got caught up to where it was at the time. Chapter 665 or something. That’s nothing to sniff at, it took me months. I’m allowed to have an opinion.
Sqiddd t1_j1waxpx wrote
You made it to chapter 665 and still thought Luffy was Rogers grandson?
I’d start over from chapter 1
SuspiriaGoose t1_j1wd7wg wrote
I did, actually. I’m rereading the whole thing now, but if the fans are as toxic as you I think I’ll drop it again. Who wants to deal with people like you?
Sqiddd t1_j1wegd8 wrote
You apparently since you’re still here. That’s not my problem or my fault
MexusRex t1_j21jwrt wrote
Ichigo’s not a chosen one tho >!he was manufactured to be that way. He’s more Frankenstein’s monster !<
SuspiriaGoose t1_j222l5j wrote
That’s a variation on the chosen one. Plenty of others are that way as well. See Dune, Harry Potter, Anakin Skywalker, etc.
RUS12389 t1_j1t8pra wrote
>destined chosen one
He isn't destined or chosen one though nor was ever stated to be.
SuspiriaGoose t1_j1td2sh wrote
He very much is. By multiple things, even. He was selected by Squad Zero to replace the Soul King should anything happen to him (which is interesting, I’ll give it that, but also means Ichigo is OP as all get out). He was engineered by Aizen and then closely watched and manipulated for his purposes (robbing Ichigo of agency, another least favourite trope of mine). He’s the last scion of Shiba, a cursed Noble family, who are supposed to have a destiny in saving the universe, blah blah blah.
There’s so much.
RUS12389 t1_j1tea65 wrote
>. He was selected by Squad Zero to replace the Soul King should anything happen to him (which is interesting, I’ll give it that, but also means Ichigo is OP as all get out).
He's not the only one.>!Even Ginjo could act as a replacement, moreover you can even create an artificial replacement like Hikone.!< And he was only selected as emergency battery.
>He was engineered by Aizen and then closely watched and manipulated for his purposes
Don't see how that make's him a chosen one or destined. It's not chosen by destiny or fate. It's just villain watching over him.
>He’s the last scion of Shiba, a cursed Noble family, who are supposed to have a destiny in saving the universe
- "last scion of Shiba" Ganju and Kuukaku
- "supposed to have a destiny in saving the universe" was never stated anything like that in the manga or novels.
Moreover, in Bleach's universe there already exists child of prophecy, the destined one about whom there were old poems - >!Yhwach. Yhwach is literally a child of SK. There's literally a whole destiny and prophecy about him. He is the closest thing to destined or chosen one in Bleach.!<
Ichigo isn't a reincarnation of somebody, like destined one in shonens. There's no prophecy about him like in other shonens. At least provide a proof where it was stated that he's a chosen one or chosen by destiny or fate or prophecy. It's funny to see people still post this misinformation.
SuspiriaGoose t1_j1vn2yi wrote
Sorry, man. Ichigo is the special special, and that’s irritating to me. I still love Bleach, but there’s issues with the writing and Ichigo is a big part of them. His motivations are just very typical and he’s the most strong there is.
RUS12389 t1_j1xci8f wrote
>Ichigo is the special special
There are already 2 people in Bleach like Ichigo who are perfect hybrids and 1 of them can use hybrid powers way better then Ichigo, so not that special.
SmashingK t1_j1rjypg wrote
He's also always overly confident when he overpowers but when he doesn't he's such a whiny little git.
His combat abilities peaked when he took on 3 vice captions bare handed very early in the story and then even dropped to having just his speed and one special attack move for the remaining hundreds of episodes lol.
He's a good character but he's not as developed as he should be.
InnocentTailor t1_j1rm9cb wrote
He was somewhat overconfident in this arc too, but the Big Bad kicked his arse hard.
SkyezOpen t1_j1rvutc wrote
The last arc was some pretty shit writing to be honest.
AdministrationWaste7 t1_j1t8owz wrote
His combat abilities never peak. Dude is essentially limitless. Ichigo is the most "Mary sue" Mc I have ever seen.
This is how literally every story arc of bleach goes.
- ichigo meets bad guy.
- ichigo fights said bad guys
- ichigo wins some but eventually loses to strong bad guy
- ichigo becomes/inherits power of said bad guys. Usually as a special attack
- ichigo stomps
Rinse and repeat.
Oh and those fights? "Getsuga tenshou" for days as you said over and over.
Main reason I can't rewatch lol.
_10032 t1_j1ta8eh wrote
That's how every shounen goes.
AdministrationWaste7 t1_j1tbsbn wrote
No not really.
Like I guess if DragonBallz is the only shonen you've seen lol.
Like naruto has his own thing and skills. And when he fights people it's about how his skills match up with the baddies. Naruto also very rarely fights alone and most fights have alot of teamwork involved.
Then you have something like hunter x hunter where the main characters don't even fight the big bads half the time let alone beat them and there's usually an alternate win condition involved.
It's never just "omg ichigo is here and his powerlevel is over 9000!"
3nz3r0 t1_j1tsecl wrote
Doesn't Naruto just spam his rasengan and shadow clone techniques?
AdministrationWaste7 t1_j1u4olb wrote
Not really.
Those are his signature moves but there's more to the battles than just using them.
The clones for example don't really do anything on their own and are more of a utility. For example he uses clones to power up his rasangan or to avoid attacks midair or to fake out an opponent.
The rasengan is also(typically) a close range attack with charge time. Meaning that in battles naruto has to do alot of things to get close to the opponent to be able to hit someone with them.
Meanwhile in bleach getsuga tenshou is a ranged attack which is either too weak to hurt the opponent or powered up enough to do a ton of damage on hit depending on the situation.
Fights in bleach devolve to standing around talking. Literally pointless "basic attacks" that dont further any sort of strategy and then a power up killer move(bankai, etc etc).
If you don't believe me just go watch montages between the two shows. Like there is a reason why bleach got canceled and naruto has another 100+ episode spinoff/sequel after it completed.
You don't watch bleach for the fights(cuz they are mediocre) you watch it for the cool character designs/concepts, the story and "hype" moments.
batinex t1_j1uhupb wrote
Bleach was cancelled because kubo was sick and anime got ton of fillers. Bleach fight can look great, see Yamamoto vs ywach
AdministrationWaste7 t1_j1ummh2 wrote
Bleach got canceled because of low ratings.
> Bleach fight can look great, see Yamamoto vs ywach
Yep new anime looks great. Doesn't change anything on what I said.
batinex t1_j1v2kzl wrote
Bleach got cancelled because of low ratings because there were only fillers because kubo was sick
AdministrationWaste7 t1_j1w3zlu wrote
I love how the fullbringer arc was so awful that you consider it filler.
iamthatguy54 t1_j1t2nmn wrote
It's underappreciated because he's a reactionary character.
It makes him relatable in that his goal to protect his friends is very personal, but it also makes him...well, less compelling to follow because he has no 'goal' to follow or something to strive for if his family isn't being threatened. His goals are like...have a nice life and find a good job, which is good for a slice of life, not for an action shonen lol
Love Ichigo.
albedo2343 t1_j1yic9s wrote
so what your saying is he has an "ideal" not an "ambition".
crazypandaex t1_j1t9fkd wrote
If you're talking about the big three I'm assuming Bleach, Naruto, and One piece. Look at their childhood. Ichigo grew fairly normal compared to Naruto and Luffy. Also Luffy might be on the spectrum. It make sense for each one of these characters being certain way.
MexusRex t1_j21jgpn wrote
The tone for the era was set by Dragonball and Goku is literally brain damaged.
stormatombd t1_j1s3ccv wrote
Ichigo are most greedy shonen main char, he have 4 power from all arc in series.. Holy shit
TheFinalDecision t1_j1rx8j0 wrote
Its a shitty protag, Luffy is funny and Naruto, at least, makes some jokes. This Ichigo is always angry and hitting his male friends. Just a big stereotype.
AdministrationWaste7 t1_j1rilye wrote
> Of the “Big Three”, Ichigo was the only one who didn’t have a head full of rocks.
Clearly you haven't seen naruto who is a pretty witty guy in combat.
adams215 t1_j1sfdwc wrote
The trope of the MC having room temp IQ except for when they are in fights where they are some fighting genius gets tiring. Not saying they aren't entertaining to watch. If they weren't I wouldn't watch those shows. But sometimes you get tired of seeing the different variations of Goku clones.
AdministrationWaste7 t1_j1t7a16 wrote
I never said naruto was some high iq genius but ok.
Op praised ichigo for not "having rocks for brains" unlike the other big three. which frankly idk where he got that idea from considering Ichigo doesn't really do anything but spam his "special moves" and bleaches fights don't really have any choreography to speak of(until recently) that would highlight any form of intelligence unlike say naruto where there is actually some of that lol
czartaylor t1_j1t316p wrote
That's a trope for a reason - explanation for the otherwise clueless reader.
There has to be at least one dumb character to explain universe magic mechanics to so the reader can understand them. And it's just most convenient for it to be the main character because well, they're pretty much always around so when you introduce new variants or mechanics, someone has to have it explained.
AdministrationWaste7 t1_j1t80x1 wrote
Where do people get the idea that naruto is dumb?
Like I guess socially he's kinda clue less sometimes.
But naruto isn't dumb he just isn't talented. That's literally his whole shtick. He's a social outcast who has to work harder than anyone else to prove himself.
czartaylor t1_j1td5nb wrote
>Where do people get the idea that naruto is dumb?
From the entire original series?
Naruto is unintelligent in the first series. He's well behind the curve on his classmates, he requires basic concepts to everyone else to be explained to him repeatedly, he has no strategic mind whatsoever (when most of his peers already have some), and it's even mentioned a couple of times he sucks at pretty much everything besides 'here's a bunch of chakra'. It's mentioned several times that his testing scores are atrocious. He's also just socially clueless.
He's markedly more intelligent in Shippuden, or at the very least his ego's gone down so he listens to his intellectual betters. But even then, he's still just kind of average. It's really not until the pain fight when he starts showing real intelligence.
crazypandaex t1_j1t9npk wrote
Also make sense for him to be socially clueless because of lack of parents growing up. Same goes for Luffy and Goku.
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