stefantalpalaru t1_j6mcmub wrote
Belgians like to pretend it was all the king's fault, because he acted on his own. That is far from the truth.
"King Leopold’s Bonds and the Odious Debts Mystery" (2020):
«Eventually, and in violation of an earlier pledge that the colony would not be a drain on Belgium’s finances, the King sought a loan from Belgium itself. That loan was made—interest free, in the amount of 25 million francs—in return for his agreement to give the Congo to Belgium in his will.»
«Moreover, Leopold agreed that “at the end of ten years, either the loan would be repaid, or the Free State would be handed over to Belgium.” The colony, in other words, was security for the loan.»
«Leopold therefore had to sell, but the terms of the deal were, from a modern perspective, generous. Belgium not only took over his debt obligations, but also committed to pay for many of his ongoing pet construction projects in Belgium (palaces, gardens and more), and pledged a 50 million franc payment to Leopold “as a mark of gratitude for his great sacrifices made for the Congo.” As Hochschild notes, “[s]ome of the debt the outmaneuvered Belgian government assumed [and then put on the Congolese] was in effect to itself—the nearly 32 million francs worth of loans Leopold had never paid back.”»
«Stengers concludes that “King Leopold extracted money from the Congo, but used it almost exclusively to enrich the [Belgian] national heritage by acquisitions of property, by monumental constructions, and by works of urbanization. His obsession was not with his own fortune but with the embellishment of his country.”»
Pay08 t1_j6mhkgr wrote
Saying the Belgian government was complicit because they gave him a loan is just idiotic. By all accounts, the Congo Free State was Leopold's personal property. The Belgian parliament not only had no influence or authority there, they had no insight at all to its affairs. This is like saying I'm a murderer if I buy food from South America.
ImmoralJester54 t1_j6on840 wrote
When they found out what was being done with the money they could easily have raked the money back. I mean it happens for lesser crimes than genocide.
Pay08 t1_j6oxmjo wrote
That's my point. They didn't know what was going on. For all they knew, he could just be building housing.
ImmoralJester54 t1_j6oy1bt wrote
Yeah till week two when they hear about him. Just cause you handed out money doesn't mean shit they can take it back.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6mjksi wrote
> Saying the Belgian government was complicit because they gave him a loan is just idiotic.
Read again what you wrote. Then read it again, and again, and again, until you see all that blood on your hands.
Pay08 t1_j6mk5h1 wrote
Are you implying I'm Belgian? Even if I was, I'm sure as hell not 150 years old.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6mllnr wrote
> Even if I was, I sure as hell not a 150 years old.
The sins of the fathers...
Pay08 t1_j6mmh89 wrote
You know, we stopped doing that "you're responsible for your ancestors crimes" thing after the middle ages.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6mxoqm wrote
> we stopped doing that "you're responsible for your ancestors crimes" thing after the middle ages
Is that why you keep defending those crimes and rewriting history to unburden your guilty conscience?
Pay08 t1_j6nxc79 wrote
I don't know how many times I need to tell you that I'm not Belgian.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6oqnx9 wrote
> I'm not Belgian.
The problem is your morality, not your nationality.
Hambredd t1_j6mpb98 wrote
That's not what 'sins of the fathers' means. But how about we look into your cultural history and work out what you should be feeling guilty about.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6mxtjw wrote
> That's not what 'sins of the fathers' means.
That is exactly what it means.
> how about we look into your cultural history and work out what you should be feeling guilty about
Tu quoque?
Hambredd t1_j6oqs71 wrote
'The sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons'
Nothing about that suggests the descendants of criminals deserve punishment.
>Tu quoque?
I was making a play for empathy. I don't think you should suffer from the sins of your countries past, but I was hoping that would realise how stupid that is in concept if you thought about what it would be like for you.
stefantalpalaru t1_j6oriai wrote
> I don't think you should suffer from the sins of your countries past
It's unavoidable, and so is benefiting from them. Go walk around Brussels sometime.
Hambredd t1_j6ortpx wrote
So what's your solution?
stefantalpalaru t1_j6osga4 wrote
> So what's your solution?
Awareness.
Hambredd t1_j6osmwe wrote
Education isn't a punishment
How would you make Brussels suffer?
stefantalpalaru t1_j6ot8bi wrote
> Education isn't a punishment
Isn't it, though?
Hambredd t1_j6othbl wrote
Are you trolling me? Of course it isn't, it's a net positive. A punishment would be denying Belgium's education and sending the education budget to the Congo
stefantalpalaru t1_j6ovp0v wrote
> it's a net positive
You think Germans enjoy learning about Nazi Germany? You think the French enjoy learning about Napoleon?
Hambredd t1_j6own06 wrote
No more than I enjoyed learning about Nazi Germany. But learning about horrible things doesn't make your life worse. And hope they understand the world (you aside) doesn't blame them for the Nazis.
ImmoralJester54 t1_j6omtjg wrote
Lol how he didn't do it all by himself
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