Need some Vermonter words of affirmation

Submitted by xohannasunx t3_11ld62f in vermont

My husband and I have been drooling over Vermont for years and might have the chance to move back to the Northeast this spring. However, as we do research, the high rent prices, cost of living, lack of jobs and housing crash is having us reconsider. To top it, there's so much conflicting data on the best and worst areas to live, crime rates, taxes etc.

Where do you all *actually* live? Are jobs actually this scarce? Would you move to VT as it stands today, knowing what you know now? We're all ears.

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BooksNCats11 t1_jbbsqfl wrote

If I were out of state I'd never move here right now. Not in a million years.

We bought our home almost 15yrs ago after renting a 2 bedroom apartment for $1000/month.

Our home would now sell for double what we paid for it (but we'd have nowhere to live) and that EXACT same apartment now goes for $2000/month. It's mind boggling.

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BooksNCats11 t1_jbbt103 wrote

As far as crime rates hahahahahahhahahaha.

There were 26 gunfire incidents in Burlington last year. That's it. Our crime rate is so much less than most other areas of the country. Lock your doors and your car doors and it'll be mostly fine.

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anusty t1_jbckyjt wrote

Real Vermonters own and carry guns…in short, Vermont sheep are likely to shoot back

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbd85kg wrote

We can stop pretending VT is an agricultural state anymore. There are not enough sheep to pose a threat anymore.

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friedmpa t1_jbe91dt wrote

Those damn cows will get ya though

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbhoeiw wrote

They won't though, the old adage of more cows than people has long since died. Hartfor once had 30 heards and now its down to 1. Same with woodstock, Windsor, Hatland, Norwich, Sharon, Promfret, Strafford, Tumbridge.

Without getting too weepy I wish some of you could see the state the way it was even 30 years ago. People at like it'd a paradise now but they never saw it back then.

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xohannasunx OP t1_jbeoo2c wrote

Good lord, that's depressing. Our goal if moving here was to rent for 1-3 years to save and then buy a house. But it sounds like renting and saving don't go together in VT.... yikes.

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BooksNCats11 t1_jber3sg wrote

Correct. It's super depressing. I've got 3 kids, 2 of them not far off the age when "moving out" generally becomes a thing and since we aren't independently wealthy uh...I figure they will just be at home longer than "usual" or move out of state. Bc rent is absolutely out of control here.

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cphrmky t1_jbygxaj wrote

> 15yrs ago after renting a 2 bedroom apartment for $1000/month.

> Our home would now sell for double what we paid for it

> and that EXACT same apartment now goes for $2000/month

What’s the mind boggling part? If house values have doubled I would think rent having doubled makes perfect sense.

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amoebashephard t1_jbbz7u1 wrote

I mean, reason being that climate change is giving the rest of the east coast the big flooding finger and it's only going to be worse, real soon. When I was working three years ago in the medical clerical field a lot of the new patients moving here were from coastal areas

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Corey307 t1_jbc294z wrote

Yeah no, very few people are moving to ME, NH and VT because of climate change. The population of Vermont has stayed pretty much steady 20 years, the housing shortage is caused by people buying vacation homes and buying homes to Airbnb.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_jbcvakj wrote

I know three people who moved here from the SW because they were tired of annual forest fires. It's anecdotal sure, but there are people moving to the NE to escape climate change.

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Corey307 t1_jbd1ghc wrote

I’m sure they exist it’s just not a common thing. I do think it’s funny because I wanna know shit about people move here thinking they’ll be able to ride out the future without realizing right what about food production is going to be a real problem with bizarre weather causing crop loss worldwide. We’ve already seen it last year in the US, most of Europe and China. That’s why I am want to get more land, to prepare for food insecurity.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_jbd1ldv wrote

Not a bad idea

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Corey307 t1_jbd4611 wrote

It’s a combination of fearing food shortages and enjoying gardening and raising trees. We don’t have long growing seasons but that can be mitigated by starting your garden inside. I learned the hard way that it’s smart to put extra mulch on young fruit trees and to wrap them for winter after losing some.

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbd8fl8 wrote

That's less climate change and more the result of terrible and nonexistent management and droughts caused by pot and almond farm out that way.

We as humans are completely responsible for it, but it's not because of headlined reasons and the headlined solutions won't fix it.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_jbe8fgw wrote

Oh they just need to rake the forests right?

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbhnv3k wrote

If that's the way a simpleton like you can grasp the concept, then yes, they need to sweer the forest floor.

You have two choices. Logging and land management conservation working together or uncontrollable wildfires forever. Even the Natives new this 1,000 years ago. Then again, the natives didn't need to cause drought with pot and almond farms.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_jbhrwzt wrote

Is that what Tucker Carlson is telling you guys these days?

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbhumpi wrote

IS that the best deflection response you can muster? Are you banking on the the fact that since i think your ideas are dumb that I must be some sort of neocon? Take your half assed excuse for a reply over to whitepeopleoftwitter or the politics sub. You have no power here.

If there was video evidence of improper forestry habits ignored by a bi partisan subcommittee would you accept it from Tucker Carlson? Or would you jsut stick your head back in the sand?

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_jbhydp8 wrote

Lol so you came up with that bullshit on your own?

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbiawvf wrote

More deflecting? Suprise suprise...Couldn't even answer?

I did come up with that on my own, unlike you who just repeats what other trolls say.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_jbijg0p wrote

Lol because you are just parroting BS. You know you are. Sprinkling some smugness and belligerence on top of BS doesn't make it more valid.

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jboa377 wrote

I am the on parrotig? Have you read your comments? Seems to me like you have no stance and too boot are missing a leg to stand on. Come back when you have any real argument to justify your stance instead of just repeating your hottakes from the politics sub.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_jborkye wrote

Are you playing the Goebbels game? Accuse others of what you are doing? Or did you just get caught in your own bluster along the way? My argument, based on admittedly anecdotal data, was that that people are moving here because of climate change in the SW. It's simple. Never changed. You on the other hand have made zero solid arguments. You have made blank statements that are canned, overly simple talking points like the SW can fix their wild weather with more logging (i.e. rake the forests) and less farming. No elaboration on your part. Projecting false confidence via smugness and belligerence does not bolster your statements.

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[deleted] t1_jbhm806 wrote

[deleted]

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Corey307 t1_jbhnf8s wrote

What’s your plan if you don’t mind? I’m assuming you got some land.

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[deleted] t1_jbhovh3 wrote

[deleted]

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Corey307 t1_jbhp8m0 wrote

Smart move. Produce is expensive here and the quality is hit or miss, I recommend growing some veg and planting some fruit trees.

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbbsjha wrote

Job diversity is scarce. Plenty of work to be had. Do you work in the medical field? You can get a job anywhere in the twin states if so.

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Parahble t1_jbbuo29 wrote

Yeah this. There's about a million listings for like three jobs at different places.

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbc2o3v wrote

If they can weild a mop, a knife or a stethoscope they're golden like Pony Boy.

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anusty t1_jbbt5dd wrote

Unless you work remote for an out of state company and make high six figures, you can expect low wages and shitty apartments

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xxxDog_Fucker_69xxx t1_jbchqgw wrote

High six figures are you on meth?

I’m at half of that and live relatively comfortably. Making 6 figures is more than enough in this state if you have a half reasonable expectation.

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anusty t1_jbckthj wrote

Sorry, I meant low six figures…weed, no meth

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xxxDog_Fucker_69xxx t1_jbcm4qh wrote

You’re absolutely right! $100k/yr is just enough to scrape by with a family.

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anusty t1_jbco3sw wrote

👍✌️ Need $200k plus to really enjoy everything, including the herb

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbc383p wrote

This is wrong on so many levels. Just because you don't like the work that's here to be had doesn't mean that it isn't here and that you can't scratch out an existence consisting of anything other than toiling in misery if you aren't wealthy.

A reliable person is worth their weight in gold in all industries right now and those industries are paying right now.

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[deleted] t1_jbc4x8w wrote

[deleted]

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vermont4runner t1_jbc79gg wrote

Minimum wage

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbcbwfm wrote

Maybe for part time and unskilled labor for employees or like a kid with their first job. No kitchen is paying min wage. No construction company either, or public works job, or jobs at hospitals, and many more. If you want to get paid 20 an hour for a job that doesn't require any skilled labor than your whacky and instead should better your position and perhaps trade skills or education.

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbcbdok wrote

Service, Medical, Sanitation, Hospitality, General labor. It all depends on your skill set and qualifications. Got a CDL? Cha-ching. Your limited understanding of the jobs available doesn't mean that they are not.

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anusty t1_jbckpy7 wrote

Not unavailable, just not what’s necessary to live even lower middle class lifestyle.

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Loudergood t1_jblwy9h wrote

Burlington Bagel is paying $25 now. Anything is possible.

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anusty t1_jbm93z8 wrote

If they can afford to pay that much, suggest you open a competing business

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FunkyOldMayo t1_jbcd2jr wrote

Aerospace for one, tons of manufacturing jobs that start in the $20/hr range minimum.

As far as houses go, Rutland County has quite a few houses on the market cheaper than the rest of the state.

Vermont =/= Burlington

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[deleted] t1_jbcmw6h wrote

[deleted]

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FunkyOldMayo t1_jbcqdma wrote

I’ve been in aerospace for 20yrs, barely anyone has an “aerospace degree” any hourly job you just need a high school diploma.

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anusty t1_jbckl8e wrote

$50k income will struggle to buy a home. Rutland has devolved into a drug cesspool, unfortunately

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anusty t1_jbckd3d wrote

Yeah, right. There’s nowhere to live because you ca t build there, which I’m good with. Fact is, per capita, homelessness is almost as bad as the west coast and rent and housing per sq ft isn’t far off either. Outside of SMBs, there’s virtually little corporate opportunity and the entire state lives and dies on how well the deacons go. Love the state and those Vermonters with generational legacies there, but it is scratching out a living, unless you’re among the rare who own a successful SMB or are in upper Mgmt in the few larger corps. Even overpaid, tenured professors at Middlebury College can afford a home there. Selfishly, having grown up there 40 years ago, I’m glad, other than the imports, very little has visibly changed, just the whacked out culture. Still one of the best places on the planet and Act 250 will keep it that way. Hmmmm, makes me think, “watch what you wish for”

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Smeedge_Kilgannon t1_jbd7qpl wrote

There are plenty of places to live just not places that will allow you to live the lavish lifestyle on these wages but certainly it's a doable scenario. Nothing in this life is easy and the longer you wait for it to get easier the worse off your situation will get.

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RoyalIndependence500 t1_jbc2751 wrote

We live in Barre City. There are a lot of jobs in Vermont, but pay is usually on the low side. Depending on your career path and life style, you can make Vermont work. If you want to live in Stowe, Montpelier or Chittenden County, you will pay a lot more for housing. As for crime, I’ve lived all over the country and Vermont has less crime than any other state I have lived in. I will never leave Vermont. It’s not perfect, but it has all the right ingredients to make a good life.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jbgmw6s wrote

If you have a work from home job or a trustfund. If one of the "ingredients to make a good life" is stable housing, that is not attainable for those of us living on wages we earn here.

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RoyalIndependence500 t1_jbgsj3k wrote

I certainly have stable housing on wages I earn here, but I know that’s not the reality for a lot of people. And my parents died when I was young, there was no trust fund or ANY money from that. Many people in the medical and technology sector or other fields have jobs that require them to work outside the home and, if they live a reasonable lifestyle, can make things work here. I have friends who own their own business and shops that are doing ok. But again, most of us acquired our housing before the pandemic. It’s a different situation now for people looking.

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Generic_Commenter-X t1_jbc33l6 wrote

You're asking these questions on Reddit? Just take what people say here with a block of salt. On any given thread, if there's a side to be taken, half the commenters are always bitching and complaining about the state. Vermont has issues, and there are cheaper places to live, but there's a reason some places are cheaper.

If you have the right resumé and aren't living paycheck to paycheck, Vermont can be a beautiful place to live. I can understand why you're drooling. It's a very rural state though, and that limits the kind of employment available, as well as housing. If you were moving to Boston, you would have space to improvise. Moving to Vermont though, have a plan, a place to stay and a job. There are lots of opportunities here, especially if you or your husband are in a trade.

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xohannasunx OP t1_jbenzoi wrote

Totally fair, although I can see in all the bitterness that there's some hard truths that people who've never lived in VT would not know otherwise.

My husband is looking for work as either a furniture maker or timber framer, and I'm a graphic designer. We're both seeing very little available, sadly. I am able to work remotely but have always preferred working locally if possible. We definitely don't live paycheck to paycheck, but the housing costs make it look like our house buying goal will get pushed much farther down the road. We've been traveling to the NE for vacation for years, so living there means we won't be traveling elsewhere because we're not "escaping" the southeast anymore. To me, the tradeoffs sound worth it. But I'd hate to get there and find out we romanticized it beyond reality.

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Full_Whereas_2694 t1_jbf8uwf wrote

My sense in my area (Addison County) is that if you're a skilled woodworker and timber framer there are plenty of Jobs. Sliver Maple, VT Frames and Stark Mountain woodworking seem to always be hiring but there are many smaller outfits he could jump to once you make a few connections. As for graphic design/marketing that's so portable surely you could find some work from home options. I'd say the industries you're in are ones that could work here. The thing about VT culturally is that there are lots of smaller employers who are much easier to access once you're here, so it's a risk but i'd be confident you'd figure it out. If your partner can build, buy land and go that way, much much cheaper than buying one of the few properties on the market, there tend to be old camps which sometimes have wells that you could live in while you're building. Not easy, but can be done. I keep harping on it but we are a small town state, relationships matter and many people prefer to deal with people they meet face to face rather than folks far away. It can make it seem unwelcoming but once you're here it can be a huge bonus.

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Generic_Commenter-X t1_jbf683z wrote

The are a couple furniture outfits in my area. I once inquired about getting a job at Shackleton Furniture in Bridgewater Vermont. What I noticed is that it was either very young men or very old men working there. The young men were there for woodworking training and income. The old men were there because they didn't need money and were otherwise bored with their lives. Building furniture for Shackletongave them a place to woodwork. The pay (early aughts) was something like 12 dollars an hour and you only got two days off a year. Seriously. The other furniture maker around here is Pompanoosic Mills. They're more of an assembly line furniture maker but they make decent and stylish furniture. Their pay is better but not great. If your husband has timber framing experience, there's demand for that. I'm a builder myself (or was before I turned to writing) and know a couple timber framing outfits. There's a real demand for timber framing in the area (Hanover/Norwich) because there's lots of money here. and high end building. You're not going to see timber framing jobs being advertised though. It's word of mouth. Also, check out Vermod:

https://vermodhomes.com/

They're in WRJ and are currently looking for carpenters. That would be a good place to simply get your foot in the door and start asking around. And if you're a graphic designer with some web design skills, a family friend of mine has been working at a web-design company in Lebanon with a graphic design background. With your background and your husband's background, this area could be promising.

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xohannasunx OP t1_jbfodax wrote

It's funny you mentioned Shackleton, my husband reached out to them last month and apparently the job posting he asked after was 7+ months old. Happy to get insight on the pay not being wonderful, maybe it wasn't great to begin with. I'm going to pass along the tip about the timber framing demand you mentioned. My husband was actually looking to get out of it. He used to travel around the country with a field crew doing raisings and it takes quite a physical toll. I could see why you pivoted! We have to keep our options open with the higher cost of living, I guess. Thanks a million for the tips, it's extremely generous. We're really hoping to make this work but need a few things to fall into place first.

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Generic_Commenter-X t1_jbg0v93 wrote

How old is he? Would he consider apprenticing/pivoting to electrical work? There's a real demand for electricians (with all the green tech being installed in Vermont). I still subcontract with an energy company and their in-house electrician was making beaucoup de $$$ installing solar panels and heat pumps. I doubt there's much to be made in furniture making. I had a friend who wanted to build and sell custom furniture, but there was little to no demand. He moved to California but didn't fare much better, so maybe the problem was his furniture? It's possible to get by as a carpenter, with a working spouse, but the real money is in contracting with a crew. I would NOT recommend Shackleton.

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Hermez_Trismegistuz t1_jbbww8l wrote

My wife and I moved to Vermont from New Hampshire 5 years ago. In that short amount of time, as with much of the country, real estate prices have increased considerably. Couple that with the higher cost of borrowing and home prices not really coming down, you have a pretty unfavorable market if you are looking to buy.

There are a lot beautiful places in Vermont. We bought a home in Stowe and plan on being here for many years to come. In my opinion, it’s the best place in the entire state. But of course I am biased. That said, the Mad River Valley (Warren/Waitsfield) is super nice and so is Waterbury. If you are looking for more city vibe, South Burlington is the spot. Anywhere in Chittenden County will be expensive because the schools systems are great.

As far as taxes, Vermont is one of the highest in the country for overall tax burden (I believe 4th last time I checked). Again, job scarcity depends on what industry you are in.

If you can swing it, Vermont is an incredible state. After 5 years in MA and 26 in NH, I can say from experience that VT is just better.

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drossinvt t1_jbbsavu wrote

Scarce jobs? Where did you hear that? We have a massive employee shortage in most areas.

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vermont4runner t1_jbbxmr3 wrote

Only nursing and jobs that don’t pay enough to live here.

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drossinvt t1_jbcdb6a wrote

2.6% unemployment rate. So many jobs available in many many fields

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vermont4runner t1_jbcetlt wrote

Unemployment rate only counts those still looking for a job. And doesn’t account for the actual jobs themselves. This state is full of retirees, nursing positions to care for them, and minimum wage service jobs.

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Corey307 t1_jbc2qfh wrote

The jobs you’re referring to generally don’t pay much. Yes this state needs more blue-collar workers but when you’re offering $15 an hour and a crappy one bedroom apartment is $1200 that does not entice people to move here.

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drossinvt t1_jbccuuz wrote

The state offers $7500 to incentivize workers moving here. So many people applied they paused the program. There are many many people enticed to move here. Finding housing is another issue.

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iamkatedog t1_jbpl24l wrote

$7,500 doesn’t help when you end up working for $15 an hour.

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Internal-Fudge8578 t1_jbcd24p wrote

It’s a weird question to answer for those of us who grew up here because unlike other places with all the same issues we have that attachment to it because of our hometowns….. i lived out of state for a long time and to me it feels like VT is the only place with normal people in it. so yes I would still move back because I love the people here and being near family but would I recommend it over other more affordable places to someone without family ties to VT specifically? Idk. There’s lots of places with mountains and lakes sometimes I think about picking up everything and going to Lander WY. Even western MA has a lot of the same stuff as VT but the wages are higher, I’ve had a few friends move down there for that reason, same with central NY and the Hudson valley.

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Full_Whereas_2694 t1_jbc1zaj wrote

I grew up here, left for college, move back and generally love Vermont. I used to be a big vermont booster, and would actively lobby friends to move here. In so many ways the quality of life here is amazing and unique (rural life, strong communities, beautiful tracts of open land and well protected forests, but not super conservative). I don’t advocate for my friends to move here anymore, not because the quality of life has changed but because the housing situation is so dire. Unless you are wealthy or have the wherewithal to build your own place, it’s brutal. I couldn’t afford to live here except that I live in a family property that I bought for below market price 10 years ago.

As a state fighting a declining population we relied on 2nd home owners to buy properties that otherwise would have been vacant and kept the tax base alive when farming and logging jobs disappeared. Now with the pandemic and remote work options, we are considered a desirable place to actually live and there aren’t homes for people (in spite of the fact that our population is still the same as it was 100 years ago) add to that regulations that were meant (correctly in my opinion) to curb development (hello southern New Hampshire) and we are in a big time pickle. I hope in the next couple decades we can figure out building densely and seriously regulating second homes and short term rentals and then folks like you who want to make a life here can have a chance of making a solid go of it.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jbgmlpu wrote

This is not going to be fixed. Either VT completely transforms into NJ/southern New England or it dies. We are headed to the whole state being a version of stowe. Old, white, and rich.

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Full_Whereas_2694 t1_jbgo9nm wrote

Vermont "turning into NJ or Southern New England" is dying. Also it's not like living most places in Ma or Ct is affordable either.

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ecoboltcutter t1_jbc17b3 wrote

I am a relatively newcomer to Rutland. It's great, don't believe the bad reputation. We're surrounded by the mountains. Sure the city has its issues (like anywhere with a population) but lots of people are working on building it up again.

Definitely have a plan for work for at least one of you before you get here - it took me a year but eventually I landed a great job. I'd say beware of the lure to really rural homes / mountain homes - you truly may not have reliable internet access and there are real challenges to living in the country (road condition, access to medical). If you're used to that and/or love plowing your own driveway, go for it :)

There are still affordable and beautiful places to live, just come prepared to be part of improving life in the community you move to. Vermont is economically diverse and primarily rural. It's also stunning and the people here are pretty great.

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vermont4runner t1_jbc77xc wrote

Rutland has two parts. Nice Rutland which is to the north east. And the rest. It’s called rutvegas for a reason. A bunch of women were rescued from a human trafficking operation from a Rutland house last year. They were in a cage.

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xohannasunx OP t1_jberrpz wrote

I appreciate the info! Is the job you got remote, or local? I would likely be working remotely, so we'd have to be somewhere with internet, which is coincidentally where the rent is insanely high and housing is hard to find. My husband is looking for a job in either furniture making or timber framing. He's not having the best of luck after looking the past 6 months. We could dip into savings, but when rent is nuts, it really pushes off the house buying process. The culture is really where our hearts are at, and maybe it would be worth a tighter living.

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ecoboltcutter t1_jc54lkh wrote

Sorry I bounced for a few days! I found a local job. Internet is good in Rutland... But it's definitely something to look into before you buy a place outside of a city. Housing is tough but you can still find places if you look for a while. There are timber frame builders nearby - Ludlow I think? Literally every contractor around us is hiring carpenters, too.

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mugsimo t1_jbc1rrs wrote

It all depends on what you do for a living and where/how you want to live. Healthcare, government, and teaching jobs are plentiful. They're giving incentives to remote workers. Rural areas are cheaper than Chittenden County, but Essex is cheaper than Burlington, so it's all relative. As far as crime goes, I used to live in San Francisco, so to hear people in Burlington complain about "urban crime" makes me LOL.

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MizLucinda t1_jbc2ub9 wrote

Depends on what kind of work you want to do. Are you a licensed professional of some sort? We probably need that. We have a scarcity of doctors, dentists, MH professionals, lawyers, etc. Where do you want to live? Housing is scarce. Schools are fair to middling. I like it here a lot but it’s not the utopia people think it is.

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PudVortex3000 t1_jbda9oh wrote

I’d want to have a combined income of at least 120k to live in the rural or less desirable parts of Vt. If you’re looking at living in Chittenden county, Waterbury/stowe, Montpelier, upper valley, or higher end ski/resort towns, I’d put that figure closer to 200k+. Most folks that I know that live comfortably work in the trades, manufacturing, medical field, or work remotely.

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xohannasunx OP t1_jbeqsb6 wrote

Thanks for the numbers, that's what we couldn't seem to put a finger on. It's crazy that it would take a six figure income to live a simpler, slower life comfortably. Although I keep hearing that's the price people will pay for the Northeast.

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hausome t1_jbc6fro wrote

We live in Bellows Falls, Near the SE border with NH and we absolutely love it. I work for the State and they are almost desperate for help in any category you pick. I see Help Wanted signange just about everywhere I go. The other morning the whole neighborhood was out helping each other dig out of the snow, the sense of community is strong, at least on my block.

Crime? Haven't had any issues. Local cops say the riff-raff are usually all out of towners.

Taxes are on the higher side, at least my property tax is. As long as it benefits my community I don't care. Life is expensive no matter where you are. Housing is as scarce as anywhere else.

Energy costs are the big issue IMHO, be prepared for that. Oil and LP aren't cheap so get used to 62 and wearing a good wool sweater indoors or you'll shell out $1K or more a month to keep toasty. Be prepared to do a lot of work on your likely 100+ y.o. house, hope you're handy.

This sub is notoriously negative sometimes so take that for what it's worth. I'll live here the rest of my life. No regrets. It's beautiful and the people are good hearted.

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xohannasunx OP t1_jbesi8z wrote

We are liking more and more the areas of VT that border NH, it seems like NH has a lot going for it as well. I'm glad you mentioned energy costs, I didn't even have a guess to go off of, and that number is quite high. A lot of people in this do seem bitter and negative, but I'd rather the rude honesty to shake the romanticism I think lots of people have for Vermont who have no idea of the realities that you mentioned. This last 24 hours of following up on this post have my husband and I doing lots more math and hard thinking.

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hausome t1_jbfhk6g wrote

I have a larger house, about 2800 sq ft, so my heating costs reflect that of course. Your experience could be different. Some folks get by burning wood or pellets and supplementing with LP stoves when needed. Just be aware there is limited natural gas infrastructure so chances are high you'll burn oil or wood.

The semi rural environment can be a shock too, be prepared to drive to big box stores or fast food (or get out of the habit all together and support small local businesses). Generally things close up earlier too, not much night life.

If you guys are looking for slower, quieter lifestyles then I can't recommend VT enough.

Best wishes in whatever you choose to do!

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SilverKelpie t1_jbckqh4 wrote

Vermont can be pretty different depending on the area you are in. I'm in the NEK. Rural and rough. Tons of natural beauty. Very little of the cutesy, marketable Vermont style that places like Woodstock have, or the wealthy, resort life that places like Stowe have, or the vibrant, college-influenced city style that Burlington has.

There aren't enough people for some jobs here in the NEK (dentists, teachers, contractors), so we are hurting for those. If you can do those, please move here. But if you are looking for some major tech job out here, you aren't likely to find it. You'd have to go to Burlington. Even then, Burlington will likely not be enough if you are looking for truly high-power jobs.

Housing and jobs vary across the state, much like anywhere else. Burlington is expensive and will have the most variety in jobs. The NEK is inexpensive and has the least. Stowe is where you relax with your millions, and maybe go out and ski occasionally. You'd have to decide where you'd fit in best and what you can afford.

Crime in Vermont is minimal compared to most other USA states. The bigger the city, the more of it you're going to find, but it still won't compare to the worst areas of most other states. Lock your car doors in Burlington. Opioid use and suicide do tend to be more of a problem in this state than others from statistics I've seen.

I've lived in six states on both coasts and in the center of the US, north and south. I was very deliberate in choosing this area and would move heaven and earth to get here again if for some distressing reason I was suddenly living elsewhere. That said, this is what is good for me. There are many people who would be utterly miserable here, so you have to think about what is good for you. If you are a big city person, and/or like to go out on the town and experience endless variety in commerce, there isn't anywhere in Vermont you will like.

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CorrectFall6257 t1_jbdgrcj wrote

This is spot on. I was born near Rutland. Grew up there. 1st generation college grad attending St Mike's in Colchester. Moved to Santa Cruz, CA. on a trek across America as a googly eyed 20 something. Came back to Vermont. Joined the service & traveled the world. Once I got out after 20 years, I settled and worked in Chittenden County since job was there. I liked it as a college kid but it had drastically changed. Started going to NEK in 2000. Sold my house in S. Burlington 5 years ago to move here permanently. Love it here. Involved with my community. All the nature and uncrowded recreation. Close to Northern NH & Western Maine and Quebec. The best quality of life for me too.

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anusty t1_jbcnuyn wrote

Better than me describing, buts it’s been near 40 years…hadn’t changed though.

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xohannasunx OP t1_jbepvkw wrote

Thanks so much for the detailed run down. My husband is a furniture maker and I'm a graphic designer. I could work remotely, but my husband can't, and there's not much to pick from as he's been looking the past 6 months. The lifestyle change is honestly what we want: slower simpler living and closer to nature. We won't be leaving for vacations, because we'd be living exactly where we'd escape to when we lived elsewhere in the US. So in some ways, we could make it work. But we'd love to buy a house within the next few years and the renting costs in VT seem to leave very little for a savings account. The pros and cons list is extensive on both sides.

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GMbzzz t1_jbc1wl4 wrote

As others have said, it all depends on your occupation. You might want to consider the Upper Valley region of Vermont (White River Junction, Thetford, Fairlee, Bradford). Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center is a large employer in this area. As well as Dartmouth College. There are also industries such as Hypertherm that employs a number of people. But I’m not too knowledgeable about job availability at these places.

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OhyouThiccc t1_jbcwv8c wrote

If the housing market around here is crashing, it must be crash upwards

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No-Ganache7168 t1_jbcz3eh wrote

Jobs are plentiful but they pay less than most other places. Rents are outrageous if you can find an apartment. It makes saving for a home very difficult.

I live in lamoille county. The only people that seem to do well financially are those who bring money they made somewhere else and work remotely or part time as consultants while they spend down their trust funds

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HeadPen5724 t1_jbec0ed wrote

-Plenty of jobs but it depends on what field your in.
-There’s very little housing, you’ll struggle to afford anything unless you’re bringing tons of out of state cash with you.
-no, I wouldn’t move here.

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Jerry_Williams69 t1_jbcvnmd wrote

Good paying engineering jobs are scarce. I can tell you that much.

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Careful_Bridge4393 t1_jbeudzs wrote

Its extremely expensive, with little job diversity and little availability for housing. “Beauty comes at a price” has always been the way Ive explained Vermont. There’s a reason a lot of people only come here a couple weeks a year lol.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jbgnfph wrote

Except it's only "beautiful" compared to New Jersey. It's not like VT is Montana.

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mollydunn94 t1_jbbwzri wrote

Vermonter here, I work for the federal government and there are plenty of those jobs around here especially since most are work from home, my husband and I both work for the government but it’s still incredibly expensive to live here, we’d both like to move to southern New Hampshire and I would prefer New Hampshire over vermont any day!

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Corey307 t1_jbc1wuw wrote

Property taxes are higher in New Hampshire last time I checked.

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xohannasunx OP t1_jbeu53w wrote

Thanks for your honesty! Just monitoring this feed is having us reconsider NH more seriously due to the job and housing concerns. In your opinion, is there much difference in the people and culture between VT and NH?

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mollydunn94 t1_jbeugrn wrote

I mean it honestly depends on where you’re thinking, I live in super northern vermont like an hour from Montreal but I also live in New Hampshire during th summer and everyone is very kind and nice but places like burlington vermont and Manchester New Hampshire are both different from small little towns like the ones I live in. I love New Hampshire more but I’m biased since all my family lives there

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21stCenturyJanes t1_jbcjx2n wrote

I live in the Montpelier area. If you can get jobs with the State, that can be a very good thing for job security. National Life is another large employer in this area. I wouldn't come here without a secure job, it's not easy to hop to another one if something doesn't work out. Depending on the kind of work you do, options are limited. Housing is scarce.

I don't regret moving here but between the job market and the housing it's not necessarily easy to come here right now.

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Galadrond t1_jbdg3wo wrote

Home Ownership: You’re not going to find very many houses for sale in VT for less than $350,000 unless they need at least $50,000 of work.

Renting: Renting just isn’t a realistic option in VT unless your household makes at least $100,000 a year. Even then you’d just be getting ripped off by greedy landlords. Sane prices for a apartments in Vermont would run between $700 - $1500 a month.

Crime Rates: These are currently out of whack due to concurrent issues from the Pandemic. That being said, VT is still one of the safest States in the country. The only place here that you should avoid is Bennington County, and that’s because it’s effectively a Sundown County.

Where to live: If you can somehow buy a house here, then I recommend Addison County or Windham County. The Brattleboro area in particular has a number of quaint and quiet small towns surrounding it.

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Impressive_Big_9906 t1_jbeanwk wrote

I live in the Upper Valley. Moved here 19 years ago. I love it. I did bring my job with me but nearly everywhere is hiring. A town like Randolph has a nice downtown, grocery store, a movie theater, a live theater, along with several interesting restaurants. Not as touristy as a Stowe or Woodstock so you might get something less expensive. I highly, highly recommend the Vermont way of life. I will never leave and fully intend to be buried in my backyard (which, as fate would have it, is completely legal here)

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jbfgeys wrote

Would not move to VT. Looking to leave. It is becoming a very homogenous place where people have lots of money and lots of entitlement. You will not be able to pay for housing on money you earn here. If you don't have additional income, I would not recommend coming.

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ohbois t1_jbftfh0 wrote

As someone who moved from the Southeast, both things (you're heavily romanticizing it and VT is a special place) are probably true. I moved in 2019 but honestly don't know if I would be able to do it now with housing as tight as it is. Even back then, it still took time and a network of generous folks to help me find my feet.

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vermont4runner t1_jbbtd8q wrote

Vermonter here. Jobs are really fucking scarce, especially ones that pay enough to live here. Bring your job with you or be independently wealthy. I’m really not kidding.

Housing is absolutely insane right now. We’re looking to move in a few months to a different school district and house prices have literally doubled since 2020. I wish I was kidding but ours went from $190k to damn near $400k since we bought in 2019.

Crime is spotty and generally not that bad. We have constitutional carry here so I recommend exercising it and not worrying anymore. Most small towns people don’t lock their doors or cars because everyone has a gun on them or readily accessible in their home.

Schools are not good here in general. We’re talking a mid 40% proficiency rate for math and reading. Some towns are sub 20%…

You will likely have little to no social life for years. This is a very insular state and people. If you’re not “in” the small town club, you’re semi shunned.

If you don’t have roots here, don’t come here. There are far better places in this country to move.

I’m staying here because the in-laws live nearby in VT, we have their only grandkids, and I’m fortunate to have a very well paying job. I’d recommend southern NH if you want that New England fix without most of the problems I mentioned above. I grew up there and it’s amazing the differences in such a small geographical leap.

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xohannasunx OP t1_jbethap wrote

Thanks so much for your honest take. We don't have ties other than a love of the land and Vermont's closeness to the upper Northeast. We want to establish community and make friends, but not being a native probably sets us back, especially if one of us has to work remotely to live there. Every other post in this thread mentions insane housing costs and scarcity, and we are now considering NH much more seriously. The states are so small, I'd almost rather visit VT every weekend and skip across the border than surrender my savings account to the VT renting situation.

Do you recommend any areas in southern NH? We were looking at Keene and Concord. I'll probably get banished for asking.

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vermont4runner t1_jbeujk7 wrote

No by all means ask! I lived in NH for 21 years.

Keene is way out there. Not close to anywhere and not anything to really do. Not my cup of tea but is for some.

I’d look more around the southern lakes region. Plymouth and Tilton if you don’t need access to Boston. More outside of concord or Manchester if you do need easier access to Boston. Avoid Rochester and Manchester for housing like the plague.

If you have good remote or healthcare jobs I’d look in or north of the lakes region. Cheaper housing and more rural lifestyles.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_jbgnsb2 wrote

Not sure why this gets down voted, other than the gun thing. VT is not scary at all, no need to be armed. It's Church St, not Bakhmut. Everything else about this is spot in.

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