Shocker /s

I raise you my middle finger Orbán

Orby is just a media hungary slut

Are we sure Hungary is an ally??

time to vote hungary out of nato just temporarily for a revote

What an Embarrassment this guy is to Hungarians.

Hungary needs to replace their cowardice leadership.

Please. Kick. Hungry. Out. Of. NATO

Can the EU stop pretending like they are about law and order and actually start discussing some of the actual legal measures to take amidst Hungary's democratic backsliding (or more like fascist takeover).

If they don't then there might not be an EU after the war.

They replaced their NATO military leaders recently.

Does that count?

Kick Hungary out of NATO

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Whose bread I eat whose song I sing. Or, if you don't know the canon, you can't sing in a choir.

And yet he keeps getting the majority of votes. Hopefully that's his last stint.

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probably getting paied off by russia who let turkey and hungary in nato what bafoons

I'm fucking tired of these double chinned suits destroying our societies and planet with their power to do absolutely nothing.

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Maybe the original 1949 alliance:

Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the United Kingdom and the United States

Should tell any fucking obvious country who's alignment is counter NATO to fuck off.

Dogs in the street can see the block on "new members" joining are the rats in our nest.

The 1949 originals need to grow balls and cut out the cancer that's undermining NATO.

An ally of russia...

There was an article in Finnish news yesterday that has a different tone, saying that "Orban calls on party to back Finnish, Swedish Nato bids". And as far as the delays go, (Telex is a Hungarian news site):

> According to Telex, the hesitation among Fidesz MPs does not necessarily mean there will be a delay in the parliamentary process, and Kocsis also thinks it is unlikely that the vote will be postponed.

What's with Orban's more talk needed? Does he really want to be friend with Russia at expense of annoying EU and NATO?

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Or even China. Who knows, maybe we get to sit out this potential bigger conflict what seems inevitable. Or then we get to fight the russians again

Yes, I think the Original 12 should form a governing team, with the power to vote-in and vote-out other members. Allowing some no-load country led by a wannabe dictator to singlehandedly derail the membership application of a country with a superior political and military establishment is a travesty.

>Kocsis also thinks it is unlikely that the vote will be postponed.

Hope they are right. Thanks for the informative reply!

Consensus is kinda important for alliances though. I think a more important thing for both the EU and NATO would have been to make decisions based on how those nations were, rather than what they might be after joining.

It doesn’t work that way. There are no votes in nato. Nato is essentially a treaty. How it works is that a state needs to sign the treaty to join, but then every current signatory needs to ratify the change to the treaty that now includes the new signatory. Unless all members agree on the treaty change, it’s impossible to move forwards, since the treaty itself demands unanimity.

Every state in the treaty needs to be unanimous in letting a new one in and therefore changing the treaty. Kicking someone out would also require unanimity, unless of course they agree to put in some clause that lets them kick them out with like a 2/3 majority for example. But then putting in that clause would also require unanimity.

The only real way to kick someone out fully would be to legally scrap the entire nato treaty, and rebuild it as nato 2. but then you would probably suffer from one or more signatories wanting the fundamental treaty to be slightly different. So that poses it’s own challenges.

It’s not possible. There is currently no legal way to force someone out.

Not possible…

Wdym? The EU has put in place several measures to hopefully tackle this issue. They’ve frozen alot of hungarys COVID recovery fund for example.

You gotta remember there’s not alot they can do about it either. While they might disagree with Orbans actions, like you and me, they have no legal right to get rid of him in any way. He was democratically elected afterall. The only way they could in theory force him out is if he broke european laws. But then if they try to put him on trial, he could just say no.

If i was Russia i would also pressure Orban to delay. Af.

It’s ridiculous that countries like Hungary and Turkey have the power to decide who can and who can’t join NATO. Finland and Sweden would be far more valuable members, Hungary could leave NATO and nobody would even notice. They want to enjoy the benefits of being in NATO but the give 0 fucks about how their actions affect not just NATO but Europe as a whole.

Can we just kick them out?

The "party" behind him is constituted entirely of biorobots, bred to press a single button. It is unheard of that they ever rebelled against Orbán. If the party resists that simply means Orbán cast them as the bad guys fir a change. Otherwise they would immediately vote on anything the Glorious Leader says.

Technically he got 54% of the votes last time. Most likely he is not even supported by half of the population, as his voters are rallied more effectively.

Don't say he is doing nothing! Orbán is strip-mining Hungary and becoming a USD billionaire in the process.

He is a narcissistic psychopath. Most likely he just enjoys that he can annoy everyone else and much more powerful leaders are forced to negotiate with him personally.

This inaccurate shit keeps getting repeated here, it's as uninformed as the average Hungarian voter is.

This never just happens. Leaders don't just get replaced, even in the US, the president can change, but the system is all the same regardless.

What a stupid take. It is mostly the east Europeans with Poland in the front line who lead the support for Ukraine within NATO. Germans and their appeasement politics until a few months ago is the biggest part of the reason for where we are now.

Around half of those were terrible colonial nations, and one can make the argument that France and the UK still are. Nations whose historical and perhaps current sins are even greater than that of hungary's. One of them actually voluntarily left the EU recently. Hungary is being a dickhead now, but never in its history did it do something as bad as Belgium did. Great selection.

They’ve only latched on to us for the economic aid. Nothing more.

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Any time someone says that the votes in a country do not reflect the true opinions of that country, one must ask, on what basis, exactly, do you think that the vote is skewed against the side you root for?

No talks are needed you fuckin conservative moron.

Finland and Sweden should’ve been admitted.

Fuck your politics. Fuck Erdogan too.

Hungary and Turkey can go fuck themselves.

Putins ally.

Makes sense why American Conservatives are in awe of him.

Both are Kremlin puppets…

Yet American Conservatives talk about him like he’s the new messiah. 🙄

The man’s a Kremlin ally, makes sense…

Well, when you need to capture the state-funded media to parrot your propaganda and need to buy up every single newspaper, radio station, TV station in the country while still being the largest spender on Facebook ads for your political bullshit and need to reform the social security to be able to intimidate poor people into voting for you, and on top or that need a ministry of propaganda with an annual budget of 115 million Euros (that last source alone equals the total spending of the largest German parties in a country of 9.6 million) and still only get 54% of the votes, that shows you have serious problems with your popularity.

And we do this to the Finns, the only literal brothers we have in Europe.

Disgusting.

Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, Article 60. Look it up.

Edit; all the downvoters can find the text here, on page 20. Since the VCLT is considered a codification of customary international law and state practice concerning treaties, it is also legally binding on non-signatories and non-parties.

False. Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, Article 60 applies. And because it is considered to be customary international law, it is also binding on non-signatories. The fact that e.g. Turkey has not signed the convention does not matter.

>Finland and Sweden should’ve been admitted.

Not only that, but they fully meet and exceed all NATO membership requirements and criteria, while Turkey and Hungary do not.

Yeah but usually when people make these claims they just make the assumption that their has worse voter turnout than the opposing side. The problem is that you'll usually find that both sides make this same argument so that begs the question: which side is correct or are both wrong?

I guess I'm just sort of averse of making these kinds of assumptions without any data to back it up because usually in statistical science a sample size of some thousands of people in a population of a few million is enough to make pretty accurate estimates on the opinions of those millions of people. With something like elections this is skewed by the fact that the sample isn't completely random, but this is sort of balanced by the huge sample size.

It's easy to fall into the same trap that Republicans did in the states a few years back where they lived in their echo chambers surrounded by other Republicans and just thought that everyone agreed with them. That then lead them to believe that most people in the country must agree with them and the only way that that will make sense is if most people who didn't vote were just lazy Republicans. That lead them to then believe that this time they would have more active voters which would swing the vote to their favor. Then it turned out that the result was far from those expectations, which shocked a bunch of people.

So all I'm really saying is, be careful when you assume things about the voting population when you have a sample size of millions of people disagreeing with your opinion.

They voted for him, he speaks for the majority of the people who live there. Hungarians likely feel no shame about his behaviour

I know about Orban's changes to election policies/law, but he still got a good number of votes either way. If there's more to it, please elaborate. I am not terribly well versed in european politics anymore.

I would question if that’s actually relevant at all seeing as not all NATO states are party to it.

Can we oust Hungary and admit Finland and Sweden?

You're absolutely right about the echo chamber thing, though u/Durumbuzafeju was pointing out the fact that they only got 54% of votes (and that's even lower proportion of the voting population's support since a large amount just didn't vote) despite having complete control over state media outlets (that is, parties in the opposition got 5 minutes each in total to demonstrate their campaign on state television) and having bought up many other formerly indepentent magazines and journals (see CEPMF). If, with all this spending and effort on exposure (having invested millions upon millions on CEPMF, Facebook and YouTube ads and so on), they still only get 3,000,000 votes in a country of 9.6 million, it really means that people aren't as supportive as it may seem at first.

Kick em out

We're sure it's not

Time for hungary to be ignored and taken out of the decision

Orban is in Putin’s payroll.

Then don’t leave the freaking table, people r dying

Unfortunately can't kick them out of NATO. Everyone has to agree for them to leave and Hungary can just veto.

If we could we would.

Kick them out of NATO take in Finland and Sweden and let them decide Hungary’s NATO bid

Makes no difference, as the Convention is considered customary international law. Legally, it is also binding on non-signatories. Again, look it up.

From a political angle, Turkey will of course be kept 'shackled' to the West, to keep it from drifting off into China's camp.

Have all the desirable parties sign into Nato II before killing off the original.