Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

[deleted] t1_iu2pjqf wrote

[deleted]

66

EdithDich OP t1_iu2vh32 wrote

The residential schools preceded* (and outlasted) the Holocaust by a century.

*and to some degree inspired.

41

Bowsers t1_iu4jozv wrote

Any elaboration on how they inspired?

Edit: just linking a 70 page pdf is not elaborating.

2

EdithDich OP t1_iuawru3 wrote

Hitler was very open about being inspired by the US's Removal, Reservation, and Assimilation Eras of Indian polices for his own regime's approach to Jews and other "undesirables". So much so that Hitler and other Nazi leaders often referred to Jews, Poles, and Ukrainians as “Indians". The Canadian residential schools were based on a US model that tied into the reservation system.

1

Redbanabandana t1_iu4ozy9 wrote

>schools preceded* (and outlasted) the Holocaust by a century. *and to some degree inspired.

What happened with residential schools is a tragedy and an horror but let us not redefine words to suit political/social trends. That you are even comparing residential schools with the holocaust and saying the latter was inspired by the former is ridiculous. Especially considering that the first residential school mass graves were found in the 1970s.

Genocide implies systematic and deliberate killing with the aim of destroying a race or nation. Was that the intent of the residential schools (no)? Were the death the results of murder or was it a result of lack of resources, lack of care and individuals in position of power (e.g., headmasters and priests) acting of their own volition? When and over what time period did the deaths happen?

Residential schools deaths: up to around 4,100 over 120 years mostly from things like lack of care, disease outbreaks (typhoid and tuberculosis) and fires. This represents about 5% of the people that attended the residential schools. The intent of those schools were to assimilate the children into western culture (presumably alive).

Holocaust: 6 million deaths over 4 years by systematic mass murders through nerve gas, combustion chambers and executions. The intent was to kill all Jews. Up to two thirds of the Europeen population of Jews were murdered.

1

Prometheus720 t1_iu6bkio wrote

You're being a jerk.

This is like someone telling an assault victim, "Well I'm sorry that happened to you, but its not like he put his dick in you. Like you couldn't even get pregnant or anything. He just touched you. I don't even know why we call it sexual assault."

  1. Canada has never had the population density of Europe. You'd need to correct for population density to do apples to apples.

  2. The schools were one part of a genocidal system which had other parts.

  3. The purpose of the schools was to eradicate a culture. Due to many actions (and also some accidents), the native population was already depressed. This wasn't "genocide from scratch." It was finishing the job.

Though many deaths were due to disease which nobody (at first) intentionally spread, make no mistake that there was a genocide across the entire Americas. People came to the Americas and killed, directly or indirectly, millions of its inhabitants. That's genocide.

2

Redbanabandana t1_iu6hex5 wrote

If you think residential schools is on the same level as Holocaust and Apartheid, I don't know what to tell you. It must be confusing at the store when $1 and $2,000 is the same to you.

>Though many deaths were due to disease which nobody (at first) intentionally spread, make no mistake that there was a genocide across the entire Americas. People came to the Americas and killed, directly or indirectly, millions of its inhabitants. That's genocide.

Why would Canada even acknowledge anything that happened before Canada even existed?

−1

Prometheus720 t1_iu6vdxb wrote

Are you deliberately not reading what I wrote?

Let me direct you to anotherof my comments.

2

Redbanabandana t1_iu73bkq wrote

Yeah, no. Residential schools are to genocide as manslaughter is to murder. Two different bad things.

1

Prometheus720 t1_iu6vmck wrote

How are you putting Apartheid up there with the Holocaust while skipping over huge genocides like Armenia?

Apartheid is about as apples to apples with residential schools as anything mentioned so far in this thread

2

Redbanabandana t1_iu72y0n wrote

Was I supposed to provide an exhaustive list of all genocides?

1

Prometheus720 t1_iu7wqm2 wrote

No, you're supposed to have one standard for what you're willing to compare to the Holocaust. You appear to have 2 separate standards.

1

Cherios_Are_My_Shit t1_iu2srbj wrote

not that it's much better but that's not exactly what usually happens.

it's usually more like "never again ... well, that doesn't count"

post-nazi genocides have always had some excuse: we're saving them by converting them to the true faith, it's not wiping a culture out if we only sterilize people, nobody knew that they needed water to continue farming.

saying oopsy would be like admitting guilt so countries don't do that. the canadian government doing it here is actually somewhat progressive, all things considered

21

Cobbertson t1_iu38nmx wrote

Why bother comparing them? Genocide happened in the past and happens to this day in various countries. All we can do is acknowledge it happened, stop it when it's going on, and try to prevent it from happening again. People do twisted shit, and good people have to find out and do whatever is needed at any given moment to promote fairness and inclusivity whenever possible

10

Cherios_Are_My_Shit t1_iu49dhq wrote

>Why bother comparing them?

because "those who don't learn about history are doomed to repeat it" and comparing them is our moral obligation.

>All we can do is acknowledge it happened, stop it when it's going on, and try to prevent it from happening again.

comparing and contrasting is step one. you can't do any of that other stuff if the average person doesn't even really understand what "it" even is.

not gonna sugarcoat it, either i missed the point of your comment or it was a really dumb thing to say. i read it like saying, "what's the point in exercising and dieting? all we can do is try to be in the best shape we can and live a healthy life." i feel like you asked why we should do something and then listed the reasons we should do it.

4

Redbanabandana t1_iu4pz6u wrote

Residential schools: up to around 4,100 deaths over 120 years with most happening before 1950's and mostly from things like lack of care, disease outbreaks (typhoid and tuberculosis) and fires. This represents about 5% of the people that attended the residential schools. The intent of those schools were to assimilate the children into western culture (presumably alive).

Holocaust: 6 million deaths over 4 years by systematic mass murders through nerve gas, combustion chambers and executions. The intent was to kill all Jews. Up to two thirds of the entire Europeen population of Jews were murdered.

People downvoting facts they don't like, lol

1

xyon21 t1_iu4sb07 wrote

Cultural genocide is still genocide. The schools were not meant to physically eradicate first nations people, but they were explicitly created and operated with the intent of eradicating first nations peoples as a cultural group.

8

Redbanabandana t1_iu4tp7a wrote

> Cultural genocide is still genocide

By name, not by definition

−4

Cherios_Are_My_Shit t1_iu5890f wrote

>The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

destruction of language or literature, banning of clothing or foods, rules against public congregation have all been ruled genocide by the UN.

saying cultural genocide isn't genocide is like saying oral rape isn't rape

2

Redbanabandana t1_iu5kcaz wrote

Putting cultural genocide on the same level as genocide is like saying an unwanted kiss on the cheek is the same as being forcibly penetrated by a chainsaw

>The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

The bolded part is pretty important.

>destruction of language or literature, banning of clothing or foods, rules against public congregation have all been ruled genocide by the UN.

Oh, like during the pandemic? TIL I was genocided according to the UN

BTW, the convention linked in the article makes no mention of cultural genocide or what that could mean so...

−3

Culverin t1_iu46stq wrote

The oopsie comes with liability.

Legally and financially. Good on the Canadian government.

Immigrant taxpayers will pay for this, I can accept that.

My family was not involved in causing this. But, it's part of being Canadian and the heritage of this country. We benefit from living in Canada and we should pay our due.

What about the Catholic Church? They're going to get a free pass on this aren't they? Because if they capitulate here, they set a precedent around the would, and that is very bad for them cause they don't exactly have clean hands.

8

braedizzle t1_iu498vt wrote

And a big piece to consider is no one currently in HoC would have been around to approve residential schools when they started. This is a different generation coming to terms and declaring that genocide happened at the hands of their predecessors

3

GlitteringHighway t1_iu5wcbs wrote

Better “oopsy we did a genocide” then not acknowledging it. Not to mention genocide has a broader definition then a lot of people realize.

2