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BabylonDrifter t1_j2c7jwt wrote

Reply to comment by Espressodimare in Ukrainian air defense will become stronger in new year – Zelensky by Espressodimare

The Defenders of Ukraine have become the Immortal Guardians of the West. We owe our comfortable lives to them. Every drop of our blood and every golden coin of our treasure must be devoted to bolstering and strengthening Ukraine and the heroes who defend her.

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FondleMyPlumsPlease t1_j2cld4c wrote

….don’t make it weird.

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DankMemes4Dinner t1_j2cljw9 wrote

Fr. Man made the vibes weird af

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coldazice t1_j2cy4sn wrote

Nah he ain’t lying, they really are preventing a full scale war in Europe by holding back Russia. They really would, the little bit of their propaganda I’ve seen seems like if they succeeded that they wouldn’t know to stop while ahead. I mean they’re not winning outright right now and their pundits are still talking reckless, I couldn’t imagine the rhetoric if they were decisively winning.

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RobotSpaceBear t1_j2d4d64 wrote

Can we dispell this myth that Ukraine is protecting Europe and the world from Russia? Ukraine is protecting itself and the rest of the civilised world is injecting a buttload of money, weapons and intel so it can be effective.

I'm fully on Ukraine's side, fuck Putain and all that jazz, but let's not pretend the reste of the world would not wipe the floor with any Russian contingent, ever.

Ukraine is not protecting us from Russia because Russia wouldn't stand a chance in the first place. And it knows it.

Now all that unpopular shit being said, Slava Ukraini.

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Lukensz t1_j2dchu7 wrote

They're protecting other countries from having to take part in the war and ultimately having military and civilian people dying. That's not to say NATO wouldn't win, but we don't want to have that fight happen in the first place.

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IllHospital6475 t1_j2dqine wrote

Take it easy man. Ukraine was a troubled country before the war. Just like Poland was 30 years ago. I don't think Ukraine is protecting Europe or rest of the world. Europe would do just fine fighting against Putin's army. The only reason why Ukraine is still in the game is the West. Just to make it clear, I hate this situation and hope it will be over soon will Ukraine regaining all their lands and Putin alongside his comrades in prison. Just don't make Ukraine look like they are heroes and defenders of the world... Because they aren't. They are defenders and heroes of their country. That's it. Everyone is supporting that. Take for example Poland and their health services which are now supporting 4,000,000 Ukrainian women and children? Are they not hero's to Ukraine? That is 10% increase in population in few weeks.

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Lukensz t1_j2dwe35 wrote

...I never said they're the heroes of the west? I'm Polish myself, I know what the opinions and views of these issues are. Regardless of intentions, Europe would rather have Russia and Ukraine duke it out on Ukraine's soil while supporting Ukraine financially and arms wise, because that is preferable to the war coming to our own side of the fence. In that sense, Ukraine is defending Europe, and that's why Europe is supporting Ukraine. Obviously they're not doing it to defend us, but for their own survival, but it all works out in everyone's interest.

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IllHospital6475 t1_j2e4zbf wrote

I think I get what you are saying but I still find it difficult to say that Ukraine is protecting other countries in any sense. I'm not sure what would happen if Russia invaded Poland. NATO would step in but I'm not so sure Ukraine would and I wouldn't ever hold that against them because consequences for them would be most likely tragic.

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Lukensz t1_j2esrwr wrote

They're protecting Europe just by being a buffor state between EU/NATO and Russia. Like I said, they're not doing it out of kindness, they're trying to save their own country and lives - Europe is profiting in this equation simply on Ukraine being where it is. Countries will chip in donations, be it arms or humanitarian aid, because no matter how much they give it's better than being in a war against Russia ourselves.

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Lukensz t1_j2dwkyl wrote

Also Poland doesn't have 4 million Ukrainians in its borders now, it's below that. Over a million was Ukrainians already living in the country prior to the Russian invasion.

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IllHospital6475 t1_j2e5bxq wrote

3.2 mil have registered accordingly the Google. 9 mil crossed over... However you look at it, there was a strain on NSZ.

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Lukensz t1_j2es8bq wrote

Many refugees who entered Poland moved on to another country where their families are, or returned back to Ukraine already.

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CaptainObvious_1 t1_j2dxluh wrote

> The only reason why Ukraine is still in the game is the West.

Bullshit. Is NATO support helping tremendously? Yes. Do we know what the situation would be if there wasn’t any support? No, absolutely not. They held their own in the first few days of the war with basically nothing from us. Kyiv wasn’t going to be taken anytime soon.

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IllHospital6475 t1_j2e3y70 wrote

Yes sure... Because it wasn't NATO who gave them all the intel needed to defend themselves. I'm not saying that Ukrainians did nothing to defend themselves because it is obvious that they have paid ultimate price in tens of thousands. However, as sad as it might be it is the science and money that wins wars. Better tech and more of it is what will win this war and hopefully it will end with some people in the prison for life... Preferably in Ukrainian prison.

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CaptainObvious_1 t1_j2e6z23 wrote

But you don’t know that, and you’re speaking entirely out of your ass

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Big-Temporary-6243 t1_j2ek0xl wrote

I think we can be appreciative of what Ukraine is doing and going through. I think they are doing exactly what the Ukraine president said. Not one other country on the European continent is participating in the blood loss like Ukraine in its defense. If putin takes Ukraine it carries with it a significant cost insomuch as trade considering that Ukraine's agriculture is feeding 25% of Europe and 48% of china... hmmm maybe they ought to reconsider that. Haha. Not to mention its oil, etc. So I don't think what he said should be downgraded because he makes a valid point. My opinion.

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voiceof3rdworld t1_j2f3kwf wrote

What do you mean by "the civilised world"? In this context? So countries who support Ukraine are the only civilised people in the world? I don't like that phrase, its often used in a context to make us think the west is civilized non western countries are not. Well " the civilized world " invaded Iraq and killed a million people, they protect war criminals like MBS and sell him weapons, they commit war crimes and go to war for resources I don't see anything civilised about that.

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RockAndStone69 t1_j2d18jc wrote

He is not wrong. But he romanticize it, which makes it weird.

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Venerable_Rival t1_j2d2f2h wrote

People have romanticised war heroes since before recorded history. Let the man have passion, we're all on the same side here.

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BlinkysaurusRex t1_j2dit6c wrote

They aren’t. Russia attacked Ukraine, not Estonia or Latvia. There are actual NATO forces stationed in those countries. I think the rhetoric and tensions would be higher. But Ukraine also just so happening to be one of few non-NATO potential targets, and the country Russia invaded is no coincidence. We could get hypothetical and say “if Russia did win quickly…” but they haven’t. And a large part of that is feeling merely the heat from the flame of what lies just past Ukraine. Would they walk into the fire after this? Doubt it. And I think their action at the outset implies that they weren’t willing to back then either.

Even amongst that rhetoric, Putin has all but admitted to the reality that Russia stands zero chance against NATO in conventional warfare. Leaning back on the reminder of their powerful nuclear arsenal.

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Ok-disaster2022 t1_j2fg7ph wrote

NATO strategies in a war with Russia involved sort of abandoning the areas near the borders as Russia invades and slowly fighting them out like in Ukraine. The NATO forces understand their job is to slow down Russian advance but also to retreat when it becomes inevitable until they get reinforcements, which would generally begin within a week of somehow there was a surprise attack.

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UpgradingLight t1_j2dc37i wrote

NATO would be far too strong tbh it wouldn’t last long. Sorry to ruin your fantasy

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Tudpool t1_j2co527 wrote

Do we? I'm not disparaging what the Ukrainians are doing but the west would have been just as secure. You're talking luke Russia would have just kept its invasion going right over Europe without any opposition.

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vegetable_completed t1_j2cy0cn wrote

If the war had gone well for Russia in Ukraine, they would have been emboldened regarding their (explicit) plans to “reclaim” territory that is now in the EU and NATO. Europe’s original plan was to watch with horror as Ukraine fell in a matter of days. Russia would then reasonably assume there might be a weak response if they attacked the Baltics, for example.

No, I don’t think the West would be as secure in a world where Russia’s imperialist risk-taking paid off vs a world where it is being bled dry and hamstrung in some of the most humiliating circumstances imaginable.

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seedanrun t1_j2cyn92 wrote

Yep - WW2 literally started because everyone sat around as a country took "just one more country" again and again.

Way better stop thing earlier - we are just lucky the Ukrainians are awesome enough to hold the line with NATO support.

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EarlDwolanson t1_j2d0sl2 wrote

This whole invasion was demented so I doubt we would have been secure. Why would Russia not attempt to "fix" their Transnistria-Moldova historical problem after? Or support Serbia and interfere more in balcans after, especially with full manouverabilty on black sea? Have you seen what they were proposing Viktor Orban and nationalist Hungarians for Carpathians/Transilvanian area and Western Ukraine? If they agreed to something like that we would have to kick them out of EU... All this within the immediate geographic vicinity and reach post conquest of Ukraine, I am not even talking Nordics and NATO or Baltics or the border issues already happening with Poland/Bielorus.

Nah, this Russia is not a good faith actor, and needs to be exterminated in the battlefield with anything short of nukes for the good of the West and ultimately the world.

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illegible t1_j2f1sll wrote

I guess that depends on if you consider Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and Moldova as part of Europe, because if Ukraine fell, they'd be the next targets, except then Putin (or his replacement) would be pulling reserves from Ukraine as well.

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ApatheticWithoutTheA t1_j2cqrh9 wrote

That was just weird my man. I’m all for helping Ukraine because it’s the right thing to do but Russia wants zero parts in an actual conflict with NATO.

They are seeing right now what our third string surplus weapons are doing to their troops, while being used by soldiers who were just trained on them.

They might have tried to stream roll some other old USSR countries if Ukraine had laid down though. So those countries should be thankful.

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Semajal t1_j2djmz7 wrote

Honestly I don't see why we can't station troops with anti air batteries around major cities to protect civilians. Shit we did more in Libya and that was on shakier ground than this. Not directly attack Russian positions, lets just go in hard for defending civilians from terrorism.

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ChronoLegion2 t1_j2es01g wrote

Because Russia will claim they’re really protecting military targets

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