Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

Broficator t1_j3z5jv5 wrote

why the fuck am i paying 45 cents for a kwh then, jesus christ.

82

Durion23 t1_j409amq wrote

To simplify: Because to stimulate the growth of renewable energy and to secure energy accessibility, in the early EU there are several agreements in place for the energy market - for example to always pay the highest price of the energy mix that is currently in use. Cheapest are wind and solar, followed by other renewables, coal, nuclear and finally the most expensive: gas. If energy demand is too high, German gas reactors go live, and even if you’d receive 90% renewables and only 10% gas you’d pay 100% the gas price for all of it.

This is why there are reforms discussed in the EU with the plan to implement them in 2023.

44

DasEisgetier t1_j40hhvn wrote

Yeah, I hope they hurry the fuck up, because I can barely afford to keep the fridge running.

13

RichardCheeseLicker t1_j40kqiu wrote

You should replace it with a stationery one or cut off the feet. No one needs a running fridge.

25

Acoasma t1_j413lak wrote

to be fair gas prices at the market are down to pre war levels, even below that. Not arguing that the market mechanism is fine the way it is, but right now the problem for consumers is when energy providers will pass on those cheaper prices.

5

Durion23 t1_j40hwtk wrote

We all do.

0

Assmodean t1_j40le9c wrote

Where do you guys live? My electricity bill did increase by quite a bit too but that is just about 25 bucks a month. Statistically, mine was on on the higher end of the increase in Germany, too, so I really don't get the hyperbole.

4

SplitToWin t1_j40m5hb wrote

Did the german goverment not pay for the price hike and therefor took a giant deficit?

Not all europeans have their goverment pay for the price increase.

3

Assmodean t1_j40o6p7 wrote

Sorry, considering we were talking about German energy prices, my thought was that they were from Germany, too.

4

Janni0007 t1_j40th89 wrote

No, they capped it at a high level i think 42 ct per kwh. Prices were at 20 ct before the war

1

Durion23 t1_j40zmrj wrote

As it is with all these things: it’s complicated. I’m from Germany, at least. To be very brief: German Gas consumption is rather high per capita, since a lot of our homes are heated with gas only, many of our industries need gas as fuel or ingredient, whether it is for the steel industry or chemical industry and so on. Gas was meant to be a cheap bridge from coal to renewable, but because of some peculiar political decisions, the incentive to lower gas consumption just kicked into effect before the war. And price wise that only became a problem as soon as gas prices exploded and the expectation that gas could be scarce (which ultimately didn’t happen) triggered enormous prices for gas consumption, since our gas tanks are still filled with the expensive gas, even if the price sinks.

And without jeopardizing the economy, private people but the deficit as well, what the German state payed is limited and nowhere near the actually price hike especially low and middle income households are struggling to keep up with.

1

Typohnename t1_j3zcssu wrote

How would that poor RWE chairman pay for his private island otherwise?

36

Fishydeals t1_j40p2qx wrote

Exported to Austria where people paid 20ct/kwh. You can't make this shit up.

13

Ooops2278 t1_j40pzbq wrote

You forgot cursing the stupid Germans for ruining energy prices with their gas dependency, while they export electricity not produced by gas to countries running their electric grid on up to 50% gas.

6

Fishydeals t1_j40qdrj wrote

They could just tell eon and rwe to shut up and take the loss or subsidize it. But nooo. Gotta squeeze some more cash out of the poorest citizens.

If you have any kind of 'living comfortable' money you have solar panels or some other renewable energy thing going for your home anyway and probably laugh about the peons considering if they really need to run the washing machine again.

1

TimaeGer t1_j40e7rr wrote

Especially as France has a price cap on electricity...

4

Mortumee t1_j40w5va wrote

For the general population yes. For businesses that's different, some bakers have an electricity bill almost 10x what it was last winter.

2

NinerNational t1_j3zbhyt wrote

Makes me feel really good about my 12 cents a kWh.

3

WasabiTotal t1_j40qv63 wrote

Damn.. I haven’t seen 12 cents for like 3 years. 56 cents in november

1

Successful-Okra-1317 t1_j4024la wrote

Taxes and fees on the base price dont help

1

surreal3561 t1_j4069v6 wrote

They don’t help, but they also haven’t really increased in the recent years while the price per kWh doubled and tripled.

7

kraenk12 t1_j40d7te wrote

Certainly not in Germany. They’ve barely gone up in recent years.

1

Successful-Okra-1317 t1_j40hl7d wrote

19% Value-added tax for an almost basic need is still a lot. Over all more than 50% of the price is just for the state.

Edit: i am lagging two years behind

1

green_flash OP t1_j3yeevl wrote

> While Switzerland and Austria were the main export destinations, in a notable shift Germany exported more to France than it imported as the nuclear-reliant country grappled with technical problems at its reactors that curtailed production.

> Germany's export surplus grew to 27.5 terawatt hours (TWh) compared with 20.8 TWh a year earlier, according to utility industry association BDEW - in tune with a handful of other recent comments.

28

SeinTheTraveler t1_j40lxpj wrote

Where the hell is all that power then .. the bills shot into the stratosphere ! The energy sector is the new oil Trading it seems

7

nmgzzptswjmlsasgjtsw t1_j40nj0u wrote

Many EU countries essentially built their grids with Russian natural operating as its backbone. Getting off Russian gas is looking more and more a certainty than a year ago when it was viewed as just theoretical. But that doesn't mean it hasn't come as a huge cost. Importing natural gas from the Middle East and North America or maximizing European sources (Norway and Scotland among others) comes with increased costs. Also getting more natural gas from overseas require additional LNG terminals and that is all being paid for by European utility customers.

Renewables also are very top heavy when it comes to their costs. The initial act of buying and installing them and updating the grid to handle their energy production is a big up front cost. The long run savings come after because wind and solar with facilities with routine maintenance can reliably provide several decades of electricity generation while needing smaller crews to maintain them. Other power facilities such as NG, coal and especially nuclear need large, very highly trained crews at all times for successful operation.

5

kitnex t1_j418hkt wrote

France had to pretty much shutdown large parts of their nuclear power plants due to maintenance and too high temperatures in summer. Therefore imports surged.

2

lil_sh_t t1_j42renr wrote

Gonna save this shitshow of a comment section and send it to everybody who claims that reddit is overwhelmingly pro German

1

[deleted] t1_j3zo1dp wrote

[deleted]

−3

Simulator5G t1_j3ztieq wrote

It’s feasible, you just need to use a giant laser to beam the energy to its destination. Or you could use wires.

5

Divinate_ME t1_j40u376 wrote

Yeah, but in the coming years it will be probably moist enough for the French rivers to carry enough water to properly cool their reactors, so this won't be the standard for to long, as it has been during the last decade or so.

−6

Skarleu t1_j40yfrl wrote

Germany it net exporting electricity since 20 years, so it is pretty much standard

11

Mackzim t1_j414gzh wrote

Now that's some fucking bullshit if I've ever read some.

−11

elcrack0r t1_j41fw46 wrote

It's been a fact for many years that Germany is a net exporter of electricity.

3

Mackzim t1_j41j43i wrote

It's a fact that i pay 5x what I paid last year (reason given is shortage), while we export these kinds of amounts.

Germany is the wallet of the EU for too many years now..

−5

elcrack0r t1_j42twvw wrote

I paid 27ct per kwh last year, now it's 45ct per kwh. You're lying. Noone paid 9ct per kwh since at least 20 years.

0

xav2727 t1_j40547f wrote

Thanks to coal i would say

−18

Janni0007 t1_j40tmdx wrote

You would be wrong then. Germany has been exporting electricity since 2003 mainly due to wind

12

LudSable t1_j3zcjrj wrote

And Sweden having to export to Germany to fill the demand

−26

Janni0007 t1_j40tw1i wrote

How dense do you need to be to understand that germany is a NET exporter meaning we export more than we import. The electricity crisis is not of german make. We are importing a ton of electricity from sweden and export it further in the european net. We export to austria, swiss, france and Poland. If you want to complain, I suggest not picking the country with the biggest electricity export in europe this year

14

Akiasakias t1_j3zdolu wrote

Germany uses Hollywood style accounting to shuffle significant lignite coal power production into its solar ledger. Takes a whole day to switch over when weather changes but they count it all as 100% solar.

Their solar investments have been GREAT for the technology. But it's been pretty shitty for power output.

They have spent more than California and produce a fraction of the power. Why? Simple amount of sunshine.

Solar in Germany is all about feelings and wishes and nothing about math. The earth is not flat.

Put that shit in Spain and import it. Much cheaper, much more efficient.

−51

Amtsschreiber t1_j40as01 wrote

> Put that shit in Spain and import it. Much cheaper, much more efficient.

Yeah, because the last year has taught us that it's totally no problem to depend on another country for half of your energy needs.

11

derkonigistnackt t1_j40a0eo wrote

You are getting down voted but it's true. The greens are not the brightest ones in germany, neither is the sun. Renewable energy is a highly geography dependent tech. In Germany wind makes sense, solar doesn't. As simple as that.

−29

ekobar t1_j40qooz wrote

Solar does make sense and you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Would a solar power plant make sense? No. Are they build in Germany? No Would decentralized solar panels, which are used directly in the households that produce them? Yes and they already did. Is this the way it is done in Germany? Yes. Is it effective? Yes.

But for someone who thinks "sPaIn hot! sOlAr gOoD! gErMaNy cOlD! sOlAR bAd" this is probably going over your head. That is your thinking on the level of a fucking toddler who just learned the hard way that cooking fields are hot.

Fascinating how someone with no idea or knowledge of the topic is so sure and is calling other people and around 30% of Germans dumb.

11

ceratophaga t1_j422l4y wrote

> Would a solar power plant make sense? No. Are they build in Germany? No

My morning jogging route takes me along two of them. Granted, they aren't large, but they do exist. The funny thing is: If they exist, someone sat down and calculated that they'd make a profit off of them, so I'd say they work.

2

ekobar t1_j4273oc wrote

Yes there are some, but they make a small part of the current percentage of generated solar power. And i don't know about any larger projects in planning.

1

ekobar t1_j4113ra wrote

If you are so smart, then tell me how do you bring that power to Germany? And that without the any lost? Dude you are embarrassing yourself.

You have clearly not any knowledge about, solar engery, power grids and yet physics alone. Fuck off and take a seat in the back, when people talk who actually know that stuff. Fucking uneducated moron.

2

derkonigistnackt t1_j4158ga wrote

Bring what power? You sound like an agressive scared chihuahua chasing its own tail. Your fingers go faster than your tiny chihuahua brains and im pretty sure you're trying to respond to another poster.

−5

Akiasakias t1_j40c149 wrote

I am also a green. Just one who can do math 😔

Don't mind being unpopular. Everything I said is backed up by data. Need to say it moreso because of the reactions.

−9

hcschild t1_j40lofk wrote

You can do math? Are you sure you didn't mean meth?

But feel free to show us your math for forms of energy that can be produced in Germany that are not polluting and cheaper than solar or wind. ;)

5

Akiasakias t1_j415ljl wrote

Well nuclear is honestly the smartest choice for Germany specifically. Would take them a decade or more though.

−1

hcschild t1_j43q5zx wrote

So you want the source of energy that is one of the most expensive ones to be our main source of energy? Doesn't sound very smart.

0

Fishydeals t1_j40pp8z wrote

So how do we get all that energy from spain back to germany without losing like 30-50% to transporting it back?

Solar might not be the best option for germany, but it would help if conservative parties like the csu would drop their ridiculous rules like 'the distance from a wind turbine to the nearest settlement needs to be its height times 10'. It's the same people who get drunk on the oktoberfest with people from all over the world, puke everywhere in the city and trains and then oppose cannabis legalization with big publicity because they do not want drug tourism. Thank god these idiots are slowly dying.

5

Akiasakias t1_j415a57 wrote

Transmission is not terrible. You lose a few % but it's way more efficient than the change in sun angle going north.

−2

Fishydeals t1_j419vnb wrote

Then why go to spain and not north africa? It's way cheaper, better angle and more sun hours.

2

Akiasakias t1_j42co25 wrote

It is, and that is an option being considered. Sicily is also pretty good.

Transmission across the Mediterranean sounds difficult.

1

ekobar t1_j41ifpw wrote

That is wrong. Transmission lost would be terrible over this distance, the lost of power rises exponatial over distance. More then "a few percent". You also don't calculate in your "investment" the cost of building these land lines. What land lines do you want to build for that? Over- or Underground? If you go underground then the lost is even worse and good luck building 2000km of multiple overground landlines trough Europe without massive delays through politics and policies.

Also still waiting on the math you did, which the greens can't do and you did!

1

Akiasakias t1_j42ehfv wrote

Will have to circle back Saturday with the data. I'm currently 2000 miles from home. Small town with limited internet and no access to my files.

Best I can do from my snow bunker are resources like this. https://globalsolaratlas.info/map?c=11.523088,8.261719,2

Red or orange, solar is great economic and environmental.

Yellow it is probably break even. Worth doing for environment reasons. But may not be a great investment.

Green or worse you are probably never going to make back the carbon debt of blast furnacing the silicon into panels.

0

ekobar t1_j46fgzh wrote

Yeah still nothing about how to get the energy from Spain to Germany and the econmical effect of that.

What does it help the German energy grid if you produce the power in Spain? How does that help the supply?

Since you always talk about investement may think about the the macroeconmical factors for Germany to build and invest in their own infrastructur. You see this very one dimensional, more sun = more money. Nothing is that simple.

> Red or orange, solar is great economic and environmental. > > Yellow it is probably break even. Worth doing for environment reasons. But may not be a great investment.

No that is your interpretation and it is wrong. The colors show the output, which is in southern Spain 40% higher then in Germany. Sorry but your source does not even help your point.

The one thing i still can't see is your math ;)

1