Submitted by daleelsayarat-cars t3_zuux1o in Futurology
Comments
Raeandray t1_j1lstej wrote
The main issue isn’t labor costs, it’s exorbitant fees charged at multiple levels of the deal.
Typically in a solar deal you’ve got four people earning profit. The salesman, the dealer the salesman works for, the install company, and the lender. The salesman himself often earns $4-5k, and I’ve seen them earn $10k+, charging arguably unethical amounts to increase their own profit. The dealer earns 30% of whatever the salesman makes.
Then the install company, which obviously has significant costs they have to pay for (they’re usually the company paying all the labor for install, buying the equipment, spending time and money on permitting, site survey, paying an architect to review and approve panel arrangement, etc). They’ll add on about 30% for profit themselves.
Then the lender adds fees. Ever heard of .99% apr loans for solar? It happens because of ridiculous lender fees, usually around 40%.
So a system that costs maybe $15k total in all product plus permits plus labor becomes $25k for seller/dealer profit, $35k for installer profit, $50k after lender profit.
The whole industry is ridiculous right now.
Unknownkowalski t1_j1mc9lo wrote
Kinda funny how shady solar is.
[deleted] t1_j1mq6f2 wrote
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jackdawson1049 t1_j1mkwbg wrote
You just described the whole construction industry.
Treesgivemewood t1_j1nchb2 wrote
Yah I mean, really nearly every industry. It’s not like the margin is all profit. There are plenty of costs to running a business.
jackdawson1049 t1_j1njcoq wrote
I was a general contractor in Florida. The costs for, insurance, continuing education, permits, etc ran me out of business.
Treesgivemewood t1_j1ofaqe wrote
Sure but that’s just the cost of doing business. We all deal with those expenses as contractors and the ones that thrive understand how to run a business….. which highlights why the original comment about how everyone is being scammed and anything above cost of raw materials is profit. That’s gross vs net.
jackdawson1049 t1_j1oji91 wrote
You are absolutely correct but that is why hiring a contractor is more expensive than doing it yourself.
Treesgivemewood t1_j1okqag wrote
Lol I just realized that somehow we are arguing while in complete agreement.
traker998 t1_j1lz9cv wrote
Came here to say exactly this work less words. The install cost is not the issue. The panel price is not the issue. It’s everything else added on.
Gordon_Explosion t1_j1n8gqa wrote
So if my uncle and I are seasoned contractors, and I do the research and buy all the material myself, I'd save 75% of a typical install doing it all myself? Aside from hiring an electrician to hook it into my house electrical system. I don't play with high voltage.
But same question. Do the research, buy the materials yourself, and save on the salesman/dealer/installer markups?
huenix t1_j1mvor3 wrote
THIS. Sheesh. We got quoted $45k for parts and $11k for labor and I laughed my ass off. Think I offended the sales weasel.
The top shelf panels he was pitching were $4800 plus $1500 for the inverter and interconnect. I stopped one of his installers and said my kid was looking for a job, what was the pay. $22 an hour.
AugustusClaximus t1_j1n10lw wrote
It’s amazing they can get away with these prices given how competitive the market is. I’ve had half a dozen door knockers hit me up in the last month, all claiming to have hung my neighbors panels. I let one walk me through the whole process to a $42k price tag and I just said nope!
At least for me I need Solar to pay for itself in 10 years, and I need to know that there’s a cheap way to replace these panels when they die in 25. Otherwise it’s best just to hang on to the grid
Awkward_moments t1_j1njqsk wrote
I thought the general consensus that they will not die in 25 years?
AugustusClaximus t1_j1nl3p8 wrote
I would need to talk to someone who’s owned their system for more than 25 years
t46p1g t1_j1nsnxk wrote
They lose their rated output after 25 supposedly, the problem with solar pv right now is that manufacturers might not be around that long as so many companies are pumping them out and the cards haven't fallen yet on who will still be in business in a couple decades.
The same thing happens in the lighting industry, cfls, LEDs, any hot technology has a bunch of manufacturers enter the industry and after a while most close their doors leaving the customer with a useless warranty
iceplusfire t1_j1m7w4n wrote
>Yes. Jumping on this. I was needing a part time job back in 2017. I was just a door knocker to get people interested and a more experienced seller would come back to make the sale. I made 10% of full price of the system just as the guy walking around handing out flyers and talking on doorsteps. Still hated it and only lasted a few months. Sales sucks and you dont get paid for weeks.
ninjewz t1_j1n85lv wrote
They can also get away with it because of the 30% tax credit plus it offsetting your existing electric bill so people see it as a net win even though they're way overpaying. With current rates, the financing isn't that enticing either if you don't do the dealer fees. On a 25 year loan my most recent install would cost over 100k if I didn't pay any extra towards the principal. My average utility bill would have to be $300/month more to break even after interest but then I also have to consider panel and inverter replacements by that time.
I'm at a crossroads because part of me wants to wait it out but then we've also seen costs go nuts on everything in a short time so I don't want to get left in the dust either.
Financial_Bicycle805 t1_j1ms91v wrote
It seems like this is prime for disruption. Surely some start up could come along and start offering it at half the cost of less by cutting out the middle men.
Raeandray t1_j1mxkcg wrote
So my wife works in the industry which is why I’m somewhat familiar with it. They’ve found lending companies willing to use a more traditional apr approach based on credit, but finding salesman is the hard part. Why would they take less with some new company when they can earn so much more with virtually any dealer?
OJwasJustified t1_j1n028i wrote
Why is a salesman necessary? Why can’t a website be built direct to consumer sales. Can’t wait till all car salesmen jobs are obsolete and I can order directly from GM.Com
inannaofthedarkness t1_j1p4ro5 wrote
Maybe give them some other incentive…stock? benefits? amazing PTO? free childcare?
Willwrestle4food t1_j1nuxx1 wrote
I ran into this. Illinois has a renewable energy credit system. Unfortunately to qualify for it you have to have your system installed by a certified installer. Those installers wanted way more than I'd ever get back in renewable credits. I installed 8kw on my roof myself. Took me three six hour working days. A ton of time planning and learning but I like these projects so that was recreational really. I bought everything I needed on sale online and had it shipped right to my door. The whole system with permits, inspections, and materials cost me about $12k before the tax rebates. If I had paid some to install the same system installed it would've cost me $25k+.
imnotsoho t1_j1pg5v8 wrote
Did you have to have a licensed electrician sign off to get the federal tax credit?
Willwrestle4food t1_j1pte4e wrote
I did not, however my electric co-op had one of their engineers review my line drawing and build list as well as an in person inspection prior to connecting me to their grid.
Veretax t1_j1nxv1s wrote
Not only that but remember that every jurisdiction has rules about setbacks and things on the roofs and some insurance companies won't insure your house if it's not put in by a licensed contract at least not the system
duubz_ t1_j1mrxdf wrote
The first sentence says it all
Muzzy637 t1_j1p25zl wrote
Let me trade my $100 electric bill for a $40 hookup bill plus $400/month financing the panels which will be obsolete by the time its paid off in an area that gets plenty of cloud cover in the winter.
Made absolutely no sense, and the sales guy would not shut up about how I’m just throwing my money away.
Farkasok t1_j1n00gg wrote
What would a viable alternative be? You can’t just remove one of those roles and still expect the process to work. While you may view the salesman as a useless addition to the project, who are people going to buy solar from? It’s a necessary role and while I agree with most of your points, that’s just the nature of buying anything that costs $5,000+. You’ll encounter the exact same thing buying grills, cars, houses, RVs, etc.
deadmancrafting t1_j1n5nmi wrote
Kill commissions for salesman, have them work for a flat rate.
Put full information in publicly available source (e.g. internet)
theonetrueelhigh t1_j1lpi95 wrote
Facts. I keep seeing the final cost while knowing what the hardware costs, clearly you're paying for a lot of expensive professionals.
Hisaidky t1_j1maasd wrote
I work for a non-profit that uses volunteer labor for install. I’m a project lead that manages relations with client, contract design permit scheduling, and then day of install (2 days for anything 24 panels and fewer) I meet 2-3 volunteers on site and answer their questions as we slowly slap the glass
Surur t1_j1mdvrl wrote
How much does a typical install cost with volunteer labour then?
Imagine a green activist volunteer movement which goes around installing solar for 1/10th the cost it usually takes, teaching other volunteers along the way, and rapidly saving the world.
Hisaidky t1_j1mkzgb wrote
Labor is $1.05 / Watt
Ten 400W panels for $4,200
Panels at about $300 per
dlewis23 t1_j1mymur wrote
If we stop the financing garbage the cost gets a lot lower. I had a 5kw system installed 6 months ago. Cost $13000 before the tax credit. It covers 80% of my bill. My utility has a $25 minimum charge so there is no point in 100% coverage.
Most people need to look at reducing there electric load. First. They are building a system for electric usage that could be reduced in many ways.
Then you have finance which from what I see looking at r/Solar a lot basically doubles the cost.
Save up, get a loan from a credit union or start with a much smaller system and add on to it a few years later. Just avoid a PPA or solar loan. They are not in your favor you are trading one bill for another.
The best advice. Stay away from door knockers.
Mecha-Dave t1_j1m6ilt wrote
I would actually have to build a roof on top of my roof, about $15k, because I have fancy Spanish metal tiles which currently have 20 years remaining on their warranty (out of 50). The new roof would be plywood with a 5 year warranty.
Alternatively I could replace my whole roof with compatible tiles for $45k.... Or I could wait 5-10 years for solar shingles to make more sense.
MalHierba t1_j1mvkf1 wrote
The market is an absolute shit show. There is no proper regulation and while monopolies can be taken advantage of and be terrible for society, some things like energy operate most efficiently as monopolies and might even be called a natural monopoly. Now I think natural monopolies should be nationalized and protected from corruption but that’s a different convo. The solar industry is millions of little marketing firms, dealing with dozens to hundreds of installers in each state. It’s a shit show and inefficient and there are a bunch of dumb salesmen who don’t even know their products very well who are just making a killing and rarely creating the ideal system and financing for their clients. There are also a lot of tariffs.
einstruzende t1_j1m58qg wrote
I just had a hybrid 31 panel install, it was 42k. Hybrid because HOA wouldn't let any panels on front or rear of house, so we have a set in back of yard and sets on each end of house. Lots of people involved, i know it's mostly labor and profit.
ten-million t1_j1mp1l3 wrote
As someone who has done this, it doesn’t cost $50k. My 20 300w panel system cost $18,600 before rebates. $3/watt was typical a few years ago.
gizmosticles t1_j1no9c7 wrote
Totally. Just to say that we had a bunch of quotes in the 35-50k range, only to have Tesla direct quote us 18k all in.
juxtoppose t1_j1mh1d5 wrote
Most of it you can do yourself, I hadn’t seen it done before I got it installed but when I uprate the system I’ll be doing it myself. If you install yourself and going by the current price of electric you can pay off the system in two years easy.
-Tesserex- t1_j1n5xqu wrote
I got a 30 panel system this year, 13.4 kW, for about $3 per watt, maybe it was a tiny bit less. Not cheap, but could be a lot worse. Don't go with big companies that advertise. The gross cost for me was under $40k, but after 26% tax credit, and the sale of SRECs for around 11k, my net cost was about $16.5k. Not cheap of course, but my payoff is 6-8 years which isn't bad at all.
throwawayacc201711 t1_j1mhdpj wrote
Regardless of that, there are quite generous subsidies going on from the federal government (when I did solar it was 30%) and then my state gave me another 5k.
My system is a 6.9kW system and this covers 100% of my electric usage. My out of pocket cost was about 12-15k, 65% was subsidized (that makes my totally system cost roughly 20-23k).
Each year of solar saves me about 2k a year. So my break even is between 6-7 years.
If you’re young and plan on living in your house for the long haul, it makes absolutely no sense to not get solar. Living in a state that actually gives a fuck about climate change helps since they typically have subsidies.
The other part not being mentioned is that the panels are getting more efficient so that you don’t need as many panels
Vicariouslysuffering t1_j1nv1od wrote
In my area there is an additional factor....... you have to get approval from the power company before you can get any solar installed. They calculate your usage and wont let you install something bigger than your consumption........ All while charging people more for a "green energy " option that you cannot prove you are getting green energy from.
Zippytiewassabi t1_j1opuj6 wrote
The article doesn’t mention location with the exception of a FAQ which asks if it’s worth it to do in Florida. To your point, for someone like me in Michigan, the entry cost would need to be very cheap for me to get in, whereas in a place like Arizona, the ROI would be much quicker.
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1lp8ns wrote
Yes 100% right, but how this can be achieved in the next 10 or 20 months?
mayhem-makers t1_j1mbnx2 wrote
Installation costs 50k? Holy fk
[deleted] t1_j1na142 wrote
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S_SubZero t1_j1mjwks wrote
Forbes’ average is $16K. https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/solar/cost-of-solar-panels/
[deleted] t1_j1na7og wrote
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[deleted] t1_j1nxuql wrote
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dejus t1_j1nkdcb wrote
Here’s my idea. For every home sale/purchase, include solar and bundle the costs into the mortgage. Also $50k is much higher than what I’ve heard from people. I’ve heard ranges closer to 15-25k.
[deleted] t1_j1o6lp3 wrote
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Stalegoldfish96 t1_j1mvha9 wrote
Unskilled, low-paying workers are already installing solar on homes in America and the dominate that market…
icebeat t1_j1mo272 wrote
DIY is not going to happen, at least in my state where if you are not licensed you are not allowed to change even a light bulb in your house
HexicPyth t1_j1mzof3 wrote
What? How exactly do you propose they enforce that?
DragonflySharp3811 t1_j1oleh8 wrote
Permits. You have to have one to start the project, get the county and utilities to agree to it with proper plans, THEN you have to install according to plans including following all fire codes and electrical standards for your county, state, and federal. After that you have to get it inspected and approved by that utility and county. I’ve been doing these projects for 5 years now. Most of the DIY stuff is almost always against code and ready to be shut down at any minute if anything else happens and requires a city inspector at the home. Not to mention that if you do anything to cause problems with your roof, electrical, or water because of your DIY you don’t have any warranty to cover it. Sorry but all these small cost explanations are avoiding the reality just focusing on price. Good luck especially if you actually know what you are doing versus majority of people on this thread. Not everyone builds their own cars even though they can technically do it all themselves. There’s a reason why that is.
imnotsoho t1_j1pgfg6 wrote
What crazy state is that?
tommy0guns t1_j1ly0lm wrote
Has anyone actually read the article? It seems like it was translated using Google. It’s also full of misinformation and odd explanations.
InitialCreature t1_j1m57su wrote
probably ai written article
Ecuni t1_j1meste wrote
This was my feeling, too. Here was an example:
>“In my Master Degree i have been used to mount a solar panel for pumping system..”
Skip the article, not worth reading.
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1mjjd1 wrote
No sir, it's written by a non-English speaking human, trying his best to write better pieces! could you please help me to provide better articles? ... Sorry for my english
Ecuni t1_j1mn1ld wrote
I apologize for my harsh criticism then.
The article appears to go over familiar territory to most solar articles, without simplifying the material in a useful manner.
I would provide examples, with different scenarios. As for the conclusion that it’s worth it, that depends again on the ROI. For many systems that the ROI is actually around 30 years, which is very poor imo.
SirMontego t1_j1qx2sp wrote
>the ROI is actually around 30 years
What are you using to calculate that? For the vast majority of the United States, payback period on solar after incentives should be around 7-12 years.
If you would like to compare calculations, I'd be happy to do so, but you go first.
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1mqz3r wrote
>the message here : “In my Master Degree i have been used to mount a solar panel for pumping system..”
is that my master project was on supplying a pumping system with x watts solar panels (were polycristaline 7 years ago), then evaluate if it worth it with and without having a solar tracker.
[deleted] t1_j1qm0u4 wrote
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John-Tux t1_j1lhbnm wrote
"Conclusion: As a doctor in electrical engineering and according to my experience in the Sahara of Algeria yes solar energy for home worth it as long as your areas is not classified as a hot zone in summer, and your city is not a sandy wind place.
The planet earth is suffering actually from green house gases, and switching your electric production to solar will help you and help the environment to recover from what human being is doing now"
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1lhjyd wrote
Hey there, thank you for your comment!
i performed a practical training in Adrar (it is very hot there), and i do want to know why they install a solar power plant when they know that in summer it reaches 45 degrees ?? in think that Concentrated solar power is more efficient than solar panels in Algeria.
theonetrueelhigh t1_j1lr65a wrote
The shade provided has value, too. Imagine reducing the amount of heat reaching your building with the same system that provides energy for it? Leveraging one's investment in such fashion is always a good idea, making your expenditures yield two benefits is just smart.
Concentrated solar is almost by design a utility scale installation with significant control and power conditioning considerations. CSP installations, by necessity, start big and stay big. They need a lot of land with nothing else on it Rooftop PV, on the other hand, starts small and can scale up as time and money allow. Its design and building considerations conform to the individual project very conveniently.
Are CSP installations more efficient? The very best ones are maybe 25% efficient at converting solar power into electricity. Even the very best PV panels aren't as good as that but unlike CSP, PV has many promising developments under research that could as much as double its efficiency into the mid-40s, whereas CSP is, at its core, steam power. That is very mature technology and energy harvesting improvements in that field in the last 50 years have been, by comparison, marginal. Algeria's high temperature doesn't really improve things, it makes generating steam in the CSP slightly easier while also reducing the capacity of condensers. If there's a good use for the waste heat of the condensers then there are energy reclamation opportunities there, of course.
Fraxcat t1_j1lwwvz wrote
I got like half a screen into this and then realized it's written by an idiot.
"The sun"? Yeah. We all know what solar is, asshole. You don't have to put that in quotation marks.
That and such grammatical gems as "it need to have" and "make your house with higher value" ..........yeah okay.
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1mj9ay wrote
No sir, it's written by a non-English speaking human, trying his best to write better pieces! and describing me as an asshole has nothing to do with ethics and politeness. I said it before, sorry for my english.
Fraxcat t1_j1mml4p wrote
Okay, then how about for vague information and basically posting an advert?
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1mns3l wrote
Idk, what vague info! you're talking about? probably i don't really have the ability to deliver a message (and currently looking to improve this point) ... Sorry
theonetrueelhigh t1_j1lpbyj wrote
This might have been written by a solar expert, but not an expert writer. I hope OP isn't the writer of the cited article because in similar fashion, it might be an expert answering, but these are not expert answers. This is barely scratching the surface. I could have written this article, and done it better.
XuX24 t1_j1lnujh wrote
I hope people start taking it seriously in this part of the world. Most of that market is dominated by Chinese companies, there need to be companies America or Europe to get into the market in a big way to give people more options and to fuel more innovation.
DragonflySharp3811 t1_j1omz13 wrote
Actually the biggest Solar Manufacturing companies have plants in the US and Canada as of right now. It’s happening and growing as we speak. MURICA!!!! Check out Top Tier Solar Panel manufacturers. You’d be proud.
XuX24 t1_j1rzpu6 wrote
Of the top 10 in the world only 2 aren't from China. Some of then like Jing Solar are putting manufacturing plants in the US because they know that that's the only way they'll get Americans to buy their product if it's made in their own soil by their own people.
series_hybrid t1_j1lplwn wrote
Let's just say that solar costs more than it would save you on your electric bill. That's called a long "Return on Investment" / ROI.
Perhaps you're not "handy" at installation, so you pay a company $15,000 to buy and install everything. As a result your "average" savings is $100/month. It would take 150 months to "break even". That's 12-1/2 years.
But what if your region occasionally has power outages? Sometimes a back-up system is not about ROI, sometimes its about having electricity to run the gas heater controller during a cold spell.
Xyrus2000 t1_j1lwpyt wrote
$100 a month? Where do you live where electricity is that cheap?
Where I live the average electric bill (before the recent price increases) is around $230 a month. I got my system 4 years ago, and combined with the SREC payments I'll hit breakeven in a few more months.
You're also making the assumption that prices won't rise over that time period.
Solar doesn't make sense everywhere, but a large segment of the US receives enough solar energy to make it worthwhile.
series_hybrid t1_j1m5ne0 wrote
I'm not saying $100/mo is my total electrical bill, I'm suggesting that a $15K system might reduce my bill $100/mo. These are just hypothetical numbers to form the basis for a discussion of ROI, which seems to be the main counter-argument against adding solar to homes.
In the four hottest months, my bill doubled from roughly $100/mo to $200/mo (from using the A/C). I have a small house and I try to be frugal. I live near central Kansas. Power outages have not lasted long, since the system here is dialed-in to that issue. However, a power outage remains a concern for me.
Rebates and power-feed-back to the grid vary from region to region. This is one area where Germany is way ahead of the rest of the world. They are at the same latitude as Canada, but in spite of the low solar gain, they have structured the addition of solar systems to be almost zero cost to have installed by a professional.
This is an effort to avoid building more of the centralized power generation that has been the norm for over 100 years.
RicksterA2 t1_j1m9ok3 wrote
I live in Michigan in a 2,100 sq. feet 1998 Cape house. My TOTAL energy bill (gas & electric) annually is around $1,500 or $125 a month.
If I installed solar my energy company (DTE) would be thrilled since they would get most of the energy, not me. So far solar makes no sense for me.
$230 a month for just electricity! How does someone waste that much electricity?
kornkid42 t1_j1mcd4t wrote
My bills this summer in vegas were near $400 for a 1800sq ft house.. Where you live has everything to do with usage and price. I spent 17k (after rebates) on solar and won't be paying anything going forward for electricity.
robot_tom t1_j1ms8eo wrote
>But what if your region occasionally has power outages? Sometimes a back-up system is not about ROI, sometimes its about having electricity to run the gas heater controller during a cold spell.
Backup power requires batteries and a suitable island-mode / EPS enabled inverter, which is additional to a normal install.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you need to think of these things up front.
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1lpug1 wrote
What about intermittency?
series_hybrid t1_j1m4qke wrote
I'm unfamiliar with the term. What does intermittency mean to you?
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1m7v3r wrote
intermittency (intermittence) problem (the sun doesn’t always shine, and the wind doesn’t always blow), a problem for which there is, as yet no workable solution.
Warm-Sorbet3937 t1_j1muk1j wrote
Our solar system can pull enough on a completely overcast day to run the house. At night, our battery covers most of our needs. Also have an EV. So our solar system powers the car.
We also have peace of mind that we will have power if the grid fails. Plus, we have a smaller carbon footprint.
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1mvlfp wrote
Okay, what if meteorologists say: that the next month will rain cats and dogs, what can you do in this situation? (If not connected to grid).
Warm-Sorbet3937 t1_j1myxs5 wrote
Our system pulls enough power to meet our needs on cloudy and rain days. I have yet to see a day when this has not been true.
But we are connected to the grid, too. We pay a small fee each month to the utility company to maintain the connection. Our system automatically switches to utilty-provided power if our battery is depleted at night. This connection to the utility company allows us to give surplus power back to the grid- which is when our battery is recharged and our system is producing more than our needs. The rate for producing power is significantly lower than the rate they charge to produce power. However, even after covering the monthly utility fee and charging the car, we got money back from the utility company last month.
series_hybrid t1_j1mbm3p wrote
I plan to buy a dual-fuel Gasoline/propane generator for those rare occasions when the battery has run out. Here's my plan:
- add a large battery and inverter to power the heater system when its cold. Battery will be 48V and expandable to add run-time. (I have inverter, plan to buy Nissan Leaf modules)
- Add dual-fuel generator ($1200?)
- Add solar panel array, basic 48V and ensure its expandable.
Edit: the reason for paying extra for dual-fuel is that gasoline is problematic in the winter, and propane is more likely to start during a severe cold spell. Also, relying on only gasoline or propane is limiting. In a power outage (which can happen at any time of year), I want to have options such as solar, gasoline, propane...
DragonflySharp3811 t1_j1oma5s wrote
Does the electric grid not exist where you live? If so then it would pull from the grid IF the Sun stopped shining 365 days out of the year. Solar does need to run all day for it to generate power also. Within 10 years we should already be at a good enough point with battery technology that you can add it on later while still saving now if you did go Solar.
GeneralDisturbed t1_j1mibx4 wrote
I'm a new homeowner who looked into solar. I primarily wanted Solar not for savings, but so I had a secure source of power should our electrical service fail, as we are in a fail prone area.
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A base system would be 50k dollars. That is just panels and inverter installed. That does not include the cost of a battery backup. And also the panels would not produce enough power to fully offset my electric bill.
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So for 50k dollars I would still have to pay my electric bill every month, reduced by some unknown amount. Plus the loan for the solar panels every month. Plus I would still be 100% dependent on the local power grid.
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I took a few thousand of the money I would have wasted on solar and invested in a natural gas generator instead and tied it into my natural gas line.
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Assuming solar ever became reasonably priced in the future I might consider it again. But right now as a homeowner I see no reason whatsoever to invest in solar. It's incredibly expensive, and still leaves me utterly dependent on my local power grid and still having to pay an electric bill to the electric company. What's the point?
MilkshakeBoy78 t1_j1mltx5 wrote
> A base system would be 50k dollars. That is just panels and inverter installed.
how much is hardware? isn't like 30-35k of that 50k is labor and commissions?
series_hybrid t1_j1mpwk1 wrote
I'd look into a starter system with a battery, and inverter, along with the power switch between grid and battery. This way, when there is a power outage, the battery can run basic features in your home.
Later, you can add a generator, and after that, you can add solar panels. The size of the battery can also be expanded along with the number of solar panels.
robot_tom t1_j1mteaz wrote
>What's the point?
You've completely missed it, apparently. Why do you need 100% offset? The grid is your battery, anyway, so you'll still have to pay a connection fee.
I've got 66% 'offset' from my system, and I'm glad of that. It's diminishing returns at larger sizes, anyway. It'll pay back in 8 years, and give me a return for the following 13+ years.
What was the payback on your last car purchase?
GeneralDisturbed t1_j1nfa8c wrote
Seems pointless to lock myself into a 30 year payment for a 50k dollar system that requires I still pay my normal electric bill with no benefits whatsoever beyond "A slightly less electric bill that is completely offset by 30 years of payments."
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I'm still paying an electric bill, still reliant on the electric grid for having power. If the power grid in my area fails I'm still completely in the dark.
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I see no reason for me to lock myself into a 30 year contract for a 50k dollar system that theoretically will give me a benefit in 30 years assuming the system still works. As I said, if solar becomes cheaper and more accessible I wouldn't be opposed to installing a system. But right now it is incredibly expensive, and gives me nothing of value out of adding it to my home.
asokraju t1_j1mwlo8 wrote
This is an AI written article...posted here to generate more data ... to improve it self...
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1n22dd wrote
As i said before i am a non-english talking person sir, sorry for my english (and i am not an ai robot)
HALabunga t1_j1o0p2h wrote
OP only posts Voltagea.com articles. All those articles seem to be written by a bot / ai. Dudes just pimping his articles at us for that ad revenue. Might just be a bot himself. This sub is turning to crap, I'm unsubscribing.
plaverty9 t1_j1m50yc wrote
My cost, and others in my area has been about $1,000 per panel. Payoff is 6-7 years with a 20 year warranty on everything.
PeeGlass t1_j1mp8n0 wrote
My realtor friend warns it can make it really hard to sell the house.
pharrigan7 t1_j1nskb3 wrote
Looks like crap. Also wonder how long does it last?
PeeGlass t1_j1nwrxm wrote
The nuances it was something to do with transfer of ownership. failure to transfer ownership of installed solar panels correctly from one homeowner to the next. And A lot of solar panel installs are lease agreements.
ten-million t1_j1mpy78 wrote
People buy Mercedes rather than Accords all the time and there aren’t articles wondering if it’s worth it. The $20k solar install is worth a heck of a lot more than the Mercedes emblem.
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1mriwg wrote
Mercedes s650 is a luxury thing to have, having a solar system is a future reality and necessity i think (not a luxury thing). Elon Musk is not hiring researchers to produce Solar systems vainly, there is a secret behind it.
[deleted] t1_j1n6445 wrote
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norrismarkw t1_j1mxown wrote
In NY My telsa install of 24 panels and 2 power walls was like 36k and after tax rebates like 26k. The monthly cost of the 10 year loan + minimal electric usage is less than the pre install electric bill. I also have had zero power outages for 3 years so won't need a separate generator. It's an amazing system, zero regrets.
Bavic1974 t1_j1n5xq7 wrote
That seems like a very cheap price for 24 panels and 2 power walls. I was quoted $33k just residential solar and no power walls/storage.
What is the capacity of your system?
norrismarkw t1_j1nrb45 wrote
Rated at 10.5 & produced 11.4 in 2021 and 11.8 so far this year.
Mash_man710 t1_j1odha1 wrote
Over 32% of houses in Australia have solar. Average full cost of 10kw system about $10k.
FuturologyBot t1_j1lj13c wrote
The following submission statement was provided by /u/daleelsayarat-cars:
Little Known benefits of wind energy to the environment revealed In this study, some expert statistics are shared from well known websites like Statista and (google scholar studies) to highlight and show if solar energy for US homeowners worth the investment, and how much time they need to recoup it! happy reading
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/zuux1o/is_solar_energy_for_home_really_worth_it_in_the/j1lh4d8/
[deleted] t1_j1lsw11 wrote
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guru_florida t1_j1lyj5v wrote
36 panels, paid 17’600 after gov rebates. Don’t forget to include future rate hikes into ROI. It also converts an expense to an asset that increases home value on average 4.6% (historical, possibly not sustaining.) I spreadsheet’d the shit outta the cost projections and ROI and got 3-5 years.
conanthedestroyer t1_j1mes9u wrote
This is the same as any emerging product. It is a small market made up of early adopters. Because the market is small, the margins and end user costs are high. As the adoption picks up and transitions to the larger mainstream market, prices and margins will come down as velocity picks up. Same as any business model. Gotta make money.
[deleted] t1_j1n3m8m wrote
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[deleted] t1_j1n7cqb wrote
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shaggyboy77 t1_j1nuu6t wrote
The following is coming from a sort of salesman/account manager from one of the largest solar distributors in the U.S.
You can source all the materials for a standard 7.6 kWh system (20 380 watt panels and racking) from a solar distributor for around 10k but you’ll have to pay for it upfront. The install labor and lender is primarily where the costs are coming from. We usually will charge you a higher margin (5 % ish) than the solar installers who provide us repeat business.
The easy work around for this is to call any local solar companies and ask if they will do all the installation without selling you the materials (where a lot of mark up comes from). The issue with self install is you will need to do permitting and schedule to have the power company come and “commission/connect” your system to the grid. Which depending on the state can be complicated.
I personally don’t have solar on my house because in my state the costs are a push but eventually intend to get it. The reason being will be energy independence via a battery. Power outages and supply issues will only continue to grow until an alternative is found, and i would rather be on the prepared end of that.
All that being said costs should go down this year as interest rates rise, which can help people who don’t finance save some money.
im4ruckus t1_j1om9l8 wrote
Can confirm $10k cost for 7.7kW system in AZ. Installed myself and grid tied system has 3 year payback after tax refund. I am carbon neutral and sun shines during day when Heat Pump AC is needed. Wish I had installed when they still had net metering. Now they pay for my power at a lower rate than I pay at night.
nativedutch t1_j1o11nh wrote
Its definitely worthwhile here in the netherlands , experience. So why wouldnt it be in yhe USA?
network_dude t1_j1mbybx wrote
We all know that solar will meet a big part of home energy needs
$30-40k for a 15kw system with battery is outrageous price gouging
There is no reason a 15kw system can't be $1k/Kw installed - this is how you get market penetration and change your energy systems - lower the cost for adoption
throwaway_ind_div t1_j1mpaul wrote
It costs about 500$/kw in India now
DepartmentSome3614 t1_j1ncazb wrote
1300 USD per kW in Eastern Europe
Farkasok t1_j1mt27m wrote
“Things should be cheaper because I said so”
network_dude t1_j1mxta9 wrote
I'm setting expectations toward our overlords that think they can charge whatever the fuck they want while colluding with the few solar manufacturers to justify their outrageous profit margins
Farkasok t1_j1myxwd wrote
There’s a lot of competition in the Solar industry. If there was egregious price gouging going on by a handful of companies, then one company would step in and beat out everyone just by having better prices.
Unfortunately it’s not so simple, there’s a lot of factors involved in Solar, it’s not just the install that costs money, you have to pay the salesmen, the setters, the customer support teams, the site surveyors, and the install crew.
I understand your frustration though, shits expensive rn and we’re all paying out the ass for everything.
network_dude t1_j1qcxi7 wrote
If solar were priced correctly there would be wide adoption
especially with the rise in home energy pricing
Farkasok t1_j1s49in wrote
We have a free market and if Solar truly is so cheap to make, why has a company not popped up and just undercut all of the competition?
network_dude t1_j1vj383 wrote
Free Market? There's no such thing as Free Markets. it's been gone for 15-20 years. Any discussion of free markets is from a capitalist point of view that they own and control their market - That's what passes for free markets today.
Every vertical market has been bought and consolidated by corporations. The people that make up the boards of these corporations are on the boards of 200+ other corporations.
Which brings us to the next point:
Collusion
The most obvious example of this - Big Pharma
There is sooo much price gouging going on, every single multi-millionaire wants to be a billionaire. The only way for them to achieve this is exorbitant profiteering and suppression of wages
Anyone that makes moves to undercut the profits of a mega-corp gets bought out, as it is easier for them to buy out the competition than compete
goforwardandtomato t1_j1npp2r wrote
I saw some people thinking solar contractors are Shady? Do you think some 50 year old single woman is going to DIY solar on her roof? No way. There is a lot of value in all of the contractor efforts. Also the numbers some have quoted in this thread are way off. I just completed a 20 Panel install (425w panels) on a flat roof (extra cost/time for mounting hardware) for $28k in California. 33% off for tax break puts my total out of pocket $18.5k. I’m grandfathered into net metering 2.0 program here.
I spend about 3.5k - 4.0k on electricity a year. Old house with original windows so AC runs a lot for 8weeks in summer, we often use electric room heaters instead of the gas furnace for 2 months in winter, and both of the cars plug in - a BEV and a PHEV.
I’m at a 4.5 to 5.5 year pay back.
This is common for most people I know in California who have put on solar recently.
If you aren’t planning to move, and own your home, put on solar.
I used savings to pay for the system and did not finance. I did not qualify but there are lots of programs for low income families to put panels on in California as well.
marklondon66 t1_j1nwt2g wrote
I see a lot of people commenting who do not have a pool to heat.
biggold69 t1_j1mn7p8 wrote
Cue fossil fuel dinosaurs,anti renewable bots and maghats. Anything but cut off the fossil fuel teet suckers.
daleelsayarat-cars OP t1_j1lh4d8 wrote
Little Known benefits of wind energy to the environment revealed In this study, some expert statistics are shared from well known websites like Statista and (google scholar studies) to highlight and show if solar energy for US homeowners worth the investment, and how much time they need to recoup it! happy reading
duhdamn t1_j1lhiym wrote
Thanks for sharing but this is an extremely basic article. It might be helpful to let someone know that it is possible to calculate if solar is a good investment but it doesn’t actually allow one to answer that question. I found this article to ‘be a waste of time.
[deleted] t1_j1lhrbs wrote
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Surur t1_j1lmbvx wrote
So the average American install is 20-25 panels, and the average cost for a new 300w panel is say $200, which means the main hardware cost is around $4000-5000. Add another $1000 for an inverter.
Yet we keep hearing a typical install is $50,000 and the pay-off period 20-30 years because of that.
It sounds to me like the main issue is labour costs, which is why I think self-install or low-skill install should become a thing.
You can already buy plug and play kits, and you can now get adhesive mounting kits which means there is no risk of leaks and no roof penetration.
It seems no matter how cheap the panels become, the cost of install which seems to be nearly 10x more than the hardware, is going to hold solar back.
If the cost of labour can be reduced by a lot in USA solar would immediately become a lot more viable and attractive.