Can someone from the borough remove the cover from your car to take pictures of it in PA?

Submitted by Haroflolpter t3_zdrsls in Pennsylvania

I live in Franklin County and I recently got a letter (well, my landlord got a letter) in the mail citing this ordinance stating that I had an uninspected vehicle in my driveway and it needs to be inspected or removed, and so on. Sure, fine, rules are rules. I'm planning to get it inspected soon anyways.

My issue is how the borough came to find this information since the car is not registered in that county, it was covered, and it sits behind another vehicle most of the time in my driveway. The car is mostly obscured from the street. They included pictures as proof. In the first picture you can even see the cover on the car and it is removed in the following pictures. Are they allowed to do this? It really bothers me that anyone can just walk up and start messing with my car.

In the three weeks the car has been sitting there, it is possible that a neighbor saw it and reported it. I understand that if my landlord wanted it removed, he would be entitled to do so, but I already cleared it with him and he had no problem with it. In either case, I would really like to know if a "Property Maintenance Code Enforcement Officer" has any reason to walk up my driveway, take the cover off my car, and take pictures of it.

Update 12/6/22: I had a polite conversation with the Enforcement Officer's supervisor. The individual was very polite and helpful and agreed that if the officer removed the car cover to take pictures, then they was wrong to do so. At this point I will have to wait until the supervisor speaks with the officer to get their side of the story. Until then, I will carry on until I hear back. As a side note, I would like to thank everyone for their advice. As for the ordnance, I understand they can vary from place to place, but it was never really about the ordnance or even about who may or may not have reported me. It was about someone tampering with my property without notice.

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IamSauerKraut t1_iz3g5ep wrote

They accessed the property without notice or permission. That seems like a defense should you receive a citation. I am curious what instructions the landlord gave you upon receiving the letter.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz3h543 wrote

None really. He just texted me a picture of the letter and was like "Hey, you might want to deal with this". And I'm on friendly terms with the guy. He knew about the car beforehand, and had no problems with it. I don't think either of us knew about this specific rule. Obviously I don't want any violation fees getting sent to him, so I just told him I would deal with it.

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IamSauerKraut t1_iz4mwf8 wrote

They have to send a violation notice first. Since you thru a rental agreement have constructive ownership of the property, and the car is yours, a violation notice sent to him is probably invalid. The notice would not include any due fees as you have a right to a hearing to contest said notice. I'd get the required item done before a notice gets sent, especially since you have 2 of the 3 items a car needs to be on a public road in place.

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Plane_Vanilla_3879 t1_iz57eh9 wrote

Landlord has a right to control what is going on THEIR property. You are not the OWNER of the property.

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Alfonze423 t1_iz6k59k wrote

By signing a lease with a tenant, a landlord transfers most of that right to the tenant. Landlords have little legal control over their tenant's actions as long as the tenant is obeying both the law and the lease.

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citsonga_cixelsyd t1_iz33upd wrote

I live in Pittsburgh. I had a car parked on the street with a sticker that was 3+ years expired. I never got so much as a ticket.

My understanding has always been that as long as it's registered and insured you're not breaking the law unless you drive it.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz35ctg wrote

Wow, I would have thought things would be more strict up there too. But yeah, the car is registered and insured. In Franklin's defense, the ordinance is clear, unfortunately. Just can't believe someone would flag it down since it's nowhere close to looking like rust bucket.

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citsonga_cixelsyd t1_iz3gvx7 wrote

The thing that struck me was that you're on private property. Even if it was a rust bucket, you have it covered. How is this an issue that they feel the need to address.

​

The fact that the authorities came onto private property and uncovered it makes me feel like somebody, for whatever reason, reported you.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz3hp58 wrote

Too much time one their hands I guess. Even if someone reported me, I'm still trying to figure out if someone can legally come put their grubby mitts over my car, even if they are a borough official. Thought they would have asked first maybe.

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SnooRevelations9889 t1_iz5pe22 wrote

Try calling your State House rep's constituent services office. It's hit or miss, but some staffs are very helpful, and get can you the info

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TacoNomad t1_iz4p49q wrote

The ordinance says you can't have on your property? I always thought it was OK If it wasn't on the street. Like all of those vehicles that people are working on, parked in driveways.

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Alfonze423 t1_iz6kly5 wrote

The ordinance is meant to prevent people from turning their residential property into a junkyard or similar eyesore. That doesn't mean it's always used so sparingly.

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Inert_Uncle_858 t1_iz3mmok wrote

Yeah that's my understanding too. I have a truck that doesn't run in my driveway, I ran out of money to fix it, it's locked sealed and covered, has been for the last three years, so no I will not get it inspected, especially considering it would have to be towed to an inspection station, which would be ridiculous. They can come after me if they want, I'll take them to court. If you're not driving it, it's technically "in storage" right? That's how I see it.

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Relax007 t1_iz4g3pd wrote

Yeah. The way I understand it is the intention of such laws is to avoid the situation I’m in where my neighbor has turned his yard into a junkyard right up to my property line. There are at least a dozen uninspected junk cars (among other various items of trash).

We have a law, but no one enforces it because he’s an asshole and no one wants to deal with him. I can’t afford a fence, so I don’t go outside anymore. I now completely understand why those laws exist, but they’re useless if they only enforce them on people like OP who try not to bother anyone and they think won’t throw a fit.

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ScienceWasLove t1_iz47mvy wrote

Every township has different laws. Some do not allow for unregistered/uninspected vehicles on your own private property. This is to prevent your yard from turning into a junk yard.

This is why more expensive car covers have windows for the license plates.

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DirectGoose t1_iz3j4ym wrote

A lot of municipalities have ordinances like this. I'm not sure about Pittsburgh but it's also possible they have an ordinance but lack the capacity to enforce it unless the car is a nuisance.

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citsonga_cixelsyd t1_iz3oyx0 wrote

That's definitely a possibility. The only police here that I've ever seen write tickets are motorcycle officers and they are relegated to Downtown and a few adjacent neighborhoods.

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MrJacks0n t1_iz3cn4m wrote

3 weeks? Who did you upset?

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz3fxoe wrote

Hah, beats me... I keep to myself and this is what I get.

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Early_Ad_4268 t1_iz52i67 wrote

It must've been Karen. From across the street. She does this kind of stuff to everyone. No matter where you are. She will find you and cause problems. Be careful of Karen.

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Dredly t1_iz35n9y wrote

this is insane - its on private property, (your driveway), why would you need to have it inspected, or registered?

​

That is absolutely an ordinance that nobody has fought yet, they will absolutely lose that battle without a doubt in court

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz36cof wrote

That would be nice. And it's not like I'm trying to be a Karen about it, I just feel like they're bullying people. They even go out of their way to say that a cover is not enough. It has to be a screen/fence/hedge that's at least 7 feet tall. I feel like would be an even bigger eyesore lol.

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Inert_Uncle_858 t1_iz3mv07 wrote

You are not being a Karen, whoever reported you definitely is though. Jfc. Fight it man. Do it for me lol. That would make me so fucking mad... I'm mad just thinking about it.

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Dredly t1_iz37aq2 wrote

yeah, barring ownership of a legal to own item that is fully on your property is just crazy. if it was on the street or public property, totally different story.

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worstatit t1_iz96izy wrote

Meanwhile, another ordinance probably prohibits fences over 6 feet.

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ktappe t1_iz3cigz wrote

It's an anti-blight ordinance. These things aren't just made up out of the air; someone transgressed badly, which led to someone drafting this. By transgressed, I mean they left multiple dead cars littering their property causing blight, and killing neighbors' property values. This ordinance keeps the borough from looking like Arkansas.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz3gk1x wrote

And I completely understand that. But in this case, someone saw a covered vehicle and went out of their way to confirm their suspicions. Which, hey, if you're a cop with a warrant, then by all means. Joe Schmoe down at the borough on the other hand...

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DJBeachCops t1_iz3idhz wrote

Yeah, seems like a rule that should be enforced if you're breaking a bunch of other rules. How they noticed in three weeks is crazy.

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hiroshimasfoot t1_iz3flya wrote

I have no idea on the legalities of this but man I'd be just as pissed as you are. That takes someone who has absolutely no life to do that.

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beeps-n-boops t1_iz4nm6l wrote

> an uninspected vehicle in my driveway

Oh, the horrors.

Where the fuck else are you supposed to put it? It's off the road, which is the only thing that should matter.

Why do people give so many fucks about what vehicles someone parks in their own fucking driveway?

I will never understand the insatiable need of so many humans to give so many fucks about shit that doesn't affect them in any tangible way whatsoever.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz4qjj2 wrote

Gotta love it. There are crumbling buildings and giant potholes around, but no, my car is the eyesore lol.

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Professional-Pea-962 t1_iz31jbu wrote

No they can’t but they can get a search warrant so that argument will only buy time…

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz32uix wrote

Which is the part that annoys me. Not that I need time, since I have 30 days to get it inspected, but fact that someone walked up my driveway and touched my car.

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und88 t1_iz3gq0l wrote

There's no probable cause for a warrant.

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gslavik t1_iz401xf wrote

> In the three weeks the car has been sitting there

Now, has the car been sitting there for 3 weeks in total? Because 3 weeks (21 days) is less than 30 days as written in the ordinance to begin with.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz4qcfs wrote

Give or take a few days. At one point it was also take to a garage, so it was even gone for a few days. The letter says it "was observed" on November 28th, so even less time than that potentially.

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klairby t1_iz4jylm wrote

Challenge it.

County assessment does not allow employees to do this, and I’d expect a municipality would have to follow similar rules. If it was uncovered and visible from the street, it would be legit.

You’d have a lot of upset folks if they knew the local government basically grants themselves the right to search your property without your knowledge.

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Vast-Support-1466 t1_iz3pint wrote

Zoning code often gives "officers" broad leeway. It's a reality that, despite the 4th amendments extension to the curtilage of your land, it is easily circumvented. Don't consider the 4th amendment to protect anything but your actual buildings.

But if you are within 30 days and can even document it, go make some noise - bc if that is the case, this is abuse of authority, and there's a statute for that in that e360 as well.

Here's a fun one:

Fences exceeding 4ft are prohibited by Harrisburg and surrounding counties/associations. Those 4 ft fences must be able to support the weight of a 150 lb man.

It's a blanket statement about expecting either kids or police to be screwin around on your fence. The former I get - the latter disturbs me. However, one isn't going to find many uniformed/equipped 150 lb police officers. That's a rarity, I'm sure.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz4p459 wrote

Thanks, I plan on contacting their office with some questions. And that's crazy about the fence haha. How do they come up with this stuff?

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newworldman1070 t1_iz2zg3b wrote

This is why I don’t live in town.

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NerdyRedneck45 t1_iz3fawo wrote

Yeah… my political beliefs go straight from “mildly commie” to “Ron Swanson” every time I see a story like this.

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humpthedog t1_iz3k25e wrote

They can sadly do this. It is a very regional thing though, I once lived in a town that had the ordinance. You most likely have a bored neighbor that reported the car. If they slapped the orange sticker on it you have until that date or it will be towed. Find somewhere inclosed or storage sadly if you can’t get it inspected

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz3l84f wrote

Thank you for the advice. I had the sneaking suspicion that if they went and did something as brazen as this, then they could. But you never know. Figured I'd ask around just in case.

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humpthedog t1_iz3ljgk wrote

Yeah. It happened to me 20 years ago when I was dirt poor and couldn’t afford to replace my windshield so it couldn’t pass inspection. Was well off the street also.

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gslavik t1_iz3zvup wrote

There have been rulings that chalking tires is an illegal search/seizure under 4th amendment (watch but don't touch is fine without warrant).

I am not a lawyer, but it does sound like those chalking rulings could be used in such cases, since a government official touched the car cover without a warrant (what if it was not a car, but a car shaped box with something else in it?).

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thisoldbroad t1_iz44jja wrote

You're in Pennsylvania. Of course, some busy body reported it.

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Drinky_McNoshoot t1_iz4g2q4 wrote

It depends on the local ordinance. I had my vwbus sitting in my driveway for years registered and insured. I couldn't get it inspected do to I was in the process of replacing the fuel system before i got hurt and could not finish it. I received a letter from the boro. I wound up stuffing it in my garage. All it takes is someone to call the boro office.

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Major_Bother8416 t1_iz4b33m wrote

Sounds like you didn’t even get your full 30 days. Welcome to the neighborhood!

There’s nothing in the ordinance that gives someone permission to remove a cover from your car. You could definitely make a trespassing case. There’s no way for them to tell from the street if the car has been inspected or registered, and if it’s not in disrepair, then it’s only in violation until you inspect and register it.

They say covering the car is not sufficient screening. They don’t say you can’t cover an unscreened car.

I get not pissing your landlord off, and you should probably just deal with it, but if I owned the place, I’d be making passive aggressive yard signs.

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ask_the_fisherman t1_iz3uigt wrote

That happpens a lot in Pa. The code officers are dicks. They interupt the law their own way. They do the same in every community near me. A friend has a fenced in yard. They went on people's porches to take pictures and try and fine him. The problem was they could not get shots of the plates or windshield.

His brother is a state trooper. He let his brother deal with the assholes. I know they left him alone afterward.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz4q5ja wrote

Maybe I ought to file a report with the police and see what they think. Worst case scenario is that they tell me I'm wasting their time lol.

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ask_the_fisherman t1_iz5l4ye wrote

Local police will side with the code officer. He is one of them. I have other experiences with the ones near me. I went to court over plants and flowers. They thought my plants were weeds. In court, my receipts and pictures of the plants proved otherwise. Like I said, they are dicks.

They measure the length of my grass a few times each year and check other shit since then. I have video outside. I catch them hopping my fence a few times a year. They lose on those cases too.

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Brilliant_Wrap1198 t1_iz49vzx wrote

If the vehicles is on private property you do not need it inspected or insured. Only if you take it in public roads. Check the ordinance language.

Then press charges for trespassing on whoever came into your property and molested you possessions uninvited.

This post could very easily be moved into malicious compliance or petty revenge if you do that! Lol.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz4r033 wrote

I'm honestly considering it at this point. I want to get the physical letters from my landlord as "evidence" lol

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Brilliant_Wrap1198 t1_iz4t8b3 wrote

You will need those letters. Also kinda curious if the landlord is the one who has an issue and is trying to deflect with some bullshit? You will know soon enough if he/she can not produce the letters. And if the landlord was the one to take the pictures you can press charges against them for not providing you with 24 hours notice they would be at the property for inspection. Only caveats to that are emergency repairs or request.

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Avaisraging439 t1_iz4l2st wrote

Didn't know Chambersburg had a whole city HOA

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ronreadingpa t1_iz5qwxz wrote

As some others mention, it could have been the landlord or someone close to them who made it an issue. Especially, since you didn't personally receive any official letter. While not fair, easiest route is getting it inspected, which you're planning, and leave the rest be. Small town politics can be nasty.

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USMCTankerSgt t1_iz6b66t wrote

One of your neighbors is a rat bastard douchebag.

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Sierra570 t1_iz6ccfn wrote

I’ve been the victim of harassment from my borough, I’m not sure how they can make you do that if it’s in a driveway…it’s not on public roads just sitting. I can lookout side and count 10+ cars right now sitting in a driveway that haven’t been driven for the past 5-10 years. I’m in Columbia county, on the line of Luzerne.

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Impressive_Pride_220 t1_iz6jo2a wrote

I am looking at your landlord. Who else knew? What is the incentive to turn you in? It is his property so the cops may have been given permission by..........the landlord.

Nice to your face. Passive aggressive behind your back.

Just a thought.

Slinks back into the shadow......

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_SundaeDriver t1_iz6nwkx wrote

you can have a car thats not inspected on your property. `

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InevitablePersimmon6 t1_iz6rnxf wrote

That sounds like you had a neighbor who pulled that shit on you and sent the photos in with a complaint.

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[deleted] t1_iz3d0wq wrote

The town i used to live in had this rule in place. I couldn’t have a vehicle even on my own property or driveway if it wasn’t registered and inspected. They enforced it to.

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IamSauerKraut t1_iz3gdh3 wrote

What if the car was inside your garage?

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz3m2ty wrote

Going off of my county, and I would think this applies to most counties, these rules only apply if the vehicle is visible from the street, or even another property. According to Franklin, I could surround the car in a 7' tall fence and that would be A-okay. I would imagine a garage would be more than fine.

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little_brown_bat t1_iz4mf7x wrote

The way the ordinance reads, it says "screened from view" wouldn't a cover achieve this?

Edit: Never mind, says a tarp is not sufficient.
Was this cover an actual car cover, or was it a tarp? I think you would have room to argue if it was an actual car cover.

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz4ms60 wrote

That's what I would have thought, but they specifically say "A covering consisting of a tarpaulin or other similar material shall not be considered adequate for such purposes".

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IamSauerKraut t1_iz4nh71 wrote

Is the ordinance from the county or from your municipality? I'd take a look at that and see if it actually applies to your particular situation. Keep in mind you said the vehicle is behind the building - which I would understand as "screened from view."

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Haroflolpter OP t1_iz4o544 wrote

I think in this case it would be the municipality? The car is behind another car most of the time, and they say that it has to be concealed from all sides.

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AlVic40117560_ t1_iz4qj5w wrote

They aren’t a cop and I’m not a lawyer, but I’m sure the laws are similar. They illegally searched your property to obtain evidence and that evidence shouldn’t be able to be used against you.

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veovis523 t1_iz4tkeo wrote

Honestly, the state shouldn't care if your car is inspected or even registered if it's sitting on private property and not being driven on public roads.

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Shakinleaf1 t1_iz4z41g wrote

Any citizen can plainly record/take pics of your property as long as they are sitting on a public space, i.e. road.

To me, it sounds like your landlord made this issue find the spotlight.

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Finrodsrod t1_iz54dxc wrote

uh i thought uninspected cars can sit in a driveway and it's only a problem if it's in the street or the yard?

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spencerprs t1_iz5ajn8 wrote

There was a news story about something similar in anothee state/jurisdiction. They claimed the car was inoperable because the tires were flat. They owner held a hearing at the local councel or something, he won.

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kickasswifemnnbo t1_iz5fqfu wrote

I don’t know a thing about the legality of what they did. But that is absolutely ridiculous and I would be so so angry.

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