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redgumdrop t1_j8j3jah wrote

Now make electric cars cheaper! In my country electric one costs double than regular one, it's ridiculous.

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monissa t1_j8jt06t wrote

isn't the method of manufacturing electric vehicles and their associated components like batteries considered very environmentally hazardous? or is that a lesser problem by comparison?

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Yosyp t1_j8juoah wrote

it is but to a geographical extent that it's far less dangerous than the lifetime operarional cost that an ICE. overall an EV pollutes far less than a combustion engine.

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PerpetuallyOffline t1_j8lbn1h wrote

Yes. Lithium is also a finite resource that we probably aren't doing a fantastic job of managing.

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DanYHKim t1_j8mzaxp wrote

In contrast to the infinite and well managed petroleum resource?

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PerpetuallyOffline t1_j8ntqz2 wrote

Not in the slightest. We humans are very bad at managing our resources or our planet.

Mining for Lithium and discarding used batteries is not environmentally friendly even while it is a better option than continuing to burn fossil fuels with abandon.

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Timeon t1_j8jp2t2 wrote

Economies of scale will make it cheaper.

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capnbard t1_j8lacfk wrote

Greed of corporations will keep the price inflated.

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PerpetuallyOffline t1_j8lbb87 wrote

Making money will also require making products that more people can afford to buy. Aside from the luxury or specialist brands, carmakers will be forced to offer cheaper cars in order to reach more segments of the market.

Here in the US, it's already happening. EVs starting at $30K USD or even less are beginning to appear. That would have been unheard of even 3-5 years ago.

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jrquint t1_j8ldi2d wrote

Thats what 144 month car loans are for. You can afford it because you are not buying gas, duh! Also less maintenance. Its practically free.

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edgiepower t1_j8ms2cq wrote

Yeah nah.

By forcing people in to buying them, companies will realise they don't actually need to lower prices as they scale up.

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Timeon t1_j8msdh9 wrote

That's why you have companies competing with each other.

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edgiepower t1_j8n1rz9 wrote

Nah. No company wants to upset the balance too much. They all want to together to rig the market. The competition is a facade.

We all know Apple and Google work together for example to maintain the mobile phone duopoly. They teamed up to block Microsoft from getting in on the scene.

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HarrargnNarg t1_j8m4gsv wrote

And impossible to repair yourself

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villagewinery t1_j8mvh71 wrote

Oh yeah, you're tearing apart trannies in your garage I suppose? Machinist working on cam shafts are you?

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Wind_Yer_Neck_In t1_j8mzs6u wrote

The decently priced ones have year long waiting lists here. Can't buy one even if you want to.

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chadhindsley t1_j8lj32e wrote

  1. Make the cars cheaper
  2. Make replacement batteries (accident or age) not $20k
  3. Make promises that future kW and charging fees won't surpass what the norms were for gasoline
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cybercuzco t1_j8mex6g wrote

  1. done

  2. never going to happen. A new headlamp assembly costs $500. Car companies will always rip you off on replacement parts.

  3. get some solar panels for your house and you can make that guarantee yourself.

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Bobbler23 t1_j8w9qbj wrote

  1. Assuming you have a parking space right outside your home.

There are plenty of places that it is not possible at all to have your car directly outside your home - terrace housing, flats, houses by main roads. Even some cul-de-sac type housing is just a general free-for-all on spaces.

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PumpkinPatch404 t1_j8p9xt0 wrote

As for #2, I believe NIO has swappable batteries, so you don't have to worry about that. It's also one of the options for charging the battery (battery swapping stations take 3-6 minutes for a full charge and is fully automized).

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snekbat t1_j8m2lp5 wrote

Why is this uplifting news exactly? Some people don't actually have enough money to buy/lease an electric car, or even have access to usable public transport

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M8rio t1_j8mf5gu wrote

It's EU. Public transport may have some issues, but it's cheap, reliable and ecologicaly make sense.

0

Elatnat t1_j8miouj wrote

"reliable" lmao.

The only reason I drive to work and I stopped using the public transport is because of how bad it is (Paris region). I am never going back to public transport for work commute.

It also isn't as cheap as you would think.

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snekbat t1_j8n2qyi wrote

My commute takes 40 minutes for a round trip in my car. It takes over 2.5 hours if I take public transport, as well as me not being on time for the start of my shift even if I take the earliest option, and costing €14 for the round trip. Not to mention the fact that half of the busses on this particular line didn't even drive today due to staff shortages.

Public transport only makes sense if you're either living and working in a major city (in which case, why aren't you taking a bike anyway?), or commuting between major cities.

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M8rio t1_j8n5bzs wrote

Like I said PB might have some issues, I know what I talking about-living in bumfuck part of Slovakia.
I do also know, that all public transport in EU si subsidised, so number of links, they routes and timetables are scheduled by local authorities, You need to take an action: write a letter to your council and inform them that there is this problem. They love solving problems if its for free: rerouting, or changing schedules cost almost nothing if so, and they can boast it in campaign. Of course is different in really rural areas, like in place, where I have my cabin- there are 2 buses per day, but its still manageble.

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snekbat t1_j8n92ja wrote

Sadly, that's not how it works in the Netherlands, we work on a system similar to UK railroads with private companies servicing certain claims. I probably don't need to tell you it sucks a**.

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villagewinery t1_j8mtna2 wrote

The luxury cars produced now will be affordable, used cars in 5 years. Remember most EVs will far outlast the ICE cars everyone is used to. 500k mile lifecycle will be commonplace.

EVs will keep getting cheaper. The trend has just started. That's how tech adoption works. There will be a $25k EV made by every large manufacturer. Thirst that don't will no longer exist.

Already more than 10% of cars are electric or electrified. The profit margins are no longer there to support the ICE car manufacturing process.

If you had to build a product with 10k parts and compete with a guy making his out of 2k parts, how long could you stay in business?

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snekbat t1_j8mzz0n wrote

>500k mile lifecycle will be commonplace.

That's the far future still, currently you're still looking at significant battery/range degradation and a 20k battery pack replacement during the lifetime of your car. A battery lasting 500k miles will also have a price tag, so you'll likely not find one in an affordable car.

>EVs will keep getting cheaper. The trend has just started.

That's nice, but it has already been confirmed that there is likely not enough lithium on earth to get to net zero, let alone replace every ICE currently on the road, especially considering major growing markets like China and India

>Already more than 10% of cars are electric or electrified

Not even close, it may be more than 10% in some markets, even up to 50% in China but on a worldwide basis it is just slightly over 2%

>The profit margins are no longer there to support the ICE car manufacturing process.

Tell that to companies like Mazda and Porsche.

>If you had to build a product with 10k parts and compete with a guy making his out of 2k parts, how long could you stay in business

Quite a long time, considering the massive and unresolvable supply shortages on a key part of those 2k parts

Only one solution to the mess we're in, and it's hydrogen. It's either Hydrogen for everyone, or ICE's and EV's for the top 10% of society, with the bottom 90% being forced on to bikes or public transport.

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RnLStefan t1_j8nchui wrote

>That's nice, but it has already been confirmed that there is likely not enough lithium on earth to get to net zero, let alone replace every ICE currently on the road, especially considering major growing markets like China and India

By whom?

In 2010, Stanford university released a paper that stated that back then there were 9.900.000 tons of known, economically extractable quantity world wide (mostly in Chile and Argentinia). Last year, the world wide extraction was at around 40.000 tons if I am not mistaken, or 0.0002475% the known reserves.

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/eason2/

Since then, more reserves were discovered in Sweden, Finland and the US. I would say we are far away from running out of lithium - which can be recycled btw - as well as we're far away from not being able to replace all cars on earth with BEVs, if we wanted to. Whether that is actually a desirable goal is another story.

>Not even close, it may be more than 10% in some markets, even up to 50% in China but on a worldwide basis it is just slightly over 2%

World wide market share in 2022 was 10%, not 2.

https://insideevs.com/news/651947/global-plugin-car-sales-december2022/

Sure, some countries are lagging behind and in some this is not even a consideration, but then again, there's several poorer countries that are actually looking at other forms of transportation that are not cars. Like electric motorcycles, locally made or electric trikes.

> Only one solution to the mess we're in, and it's hydrogen.

Let's look at hydrogen then.

  • The electricity to make a H2 car run 100km would power a BEV for 300km. I.e. you pay 3x the price to drive a hydrogen car.
  • A hydrogen fuel cell uses actual rare earths (platinum) while a battery doesn't. It needs to be replaced every 150.000 to 160.000 kilometers for who knows how much.
  • Hydrogen is a highly potent greenhouse gas and the British government recently released a study indicating that up to 10% of all won hydrogen is lost in the "pipeline" between well and end-user. We need to decrease emission of GHGs, no increase them.
  • Hydrogen fuelstations are highly expensive, need to be subsidized and do not scale well (20minutes breaks to repressurize during rush hour. Might as well charge a BEV in those 20 minutes). Unless you buy more pumps and tanks, but that leads back to the first point: They're expensive - and more tanks and pumps need more space.
  • Hydrogen cars have stalled in the low thousands (2600 Miras sold last year).
  • Toyota, while still committed to hydrogen on paper, have now also committed to BEVs, after realizing that they won't maintain their marketshare when focusing purely on hydrogen cars.
  • Chinas manufacturers are currently the only ones besides Japan who have a major stake in Hydrogen cars as their government is funding three different branches of research in the future of transportation.
  • BMW basically gave up on their renewed Hydrogen plans last year or so.
  • Mercedes stopped all development in 2019
  • VW publicly committed to BEVs and does not consider hydrogen anymore.
  • Stellantis has one hydrogen car in their portfolio that I know of, one of their commercial transporters comes as BEV & hydrogen model.
  • Renault is planning a hydrogen version of the Scenic. Sometime after 2030.
  • The large US car makers are way behind on BEV deliveries and production. Hydrogen is not even on their roadmaps.

That leaves 5-10 years for BEVs and the charging infrastructure to gain a market share that will make hydrogen cars unmarketable. And if you think back 10 years ago, there wasn't a charging infrastructure at all.

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mjfi4cp2 t1_j91f62r wrote

Hydrogen is bunk for almost all vehicular applications

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Spirited-Doughnut520 t1_j8l7z70 wrote

I hope they also have lithium mines in country to support that

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caiman141 t1_j8m9rul wrote

Those precious mineral mines are already operating with "slave bussines model". I really hope that bigger demand is going to shine more light on these fuckers exploiting poor countries!

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Spirited-Doughnut520 t1_j8mvjc9 wrote

That, along with mandatory manufacturer lithium recycling programs! Lithium batteries are pretty recyclable, you just gotta force them as they won't do it if they save even $5 vs mining more for a new pack

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PippenDunksOnEwing t1_j8jyb7f wrote

They're turning ICE cars into horses. Only the rich can drive ICE cars.

Btw, they're NOT making EVs any cheaper neither. Only the rich can drive EVs.

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Razzlecake t1_j8l7a81 wrote

Ideally the commoners will stick to their local areas utilizing public transit or bikes/ebikes. Never leaving their town. While the ruling class and elites will continue commuting with their private jets and motorcades of ICE vehicles.

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Menacek t1_j8m1ebr wrote

I mean trains exist. Where i live lots of people travel with then including between cities and abroad. So it's not like you're gonna be stuck.

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Denastus t1_j8m6xbz wrote

Can you book me a train ride from San Francisco to Sydney? I'll pay you commission if you can pull it off.

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Menacek t1_j8n1mnc wrote

Can you drive a car from san francisco to sydney? Very weird example since 99% would use public transportation (plane) nowadays. And that's not a trip you'd be doing often.

Also this is EU law, and neither San francisco nor Sydney are in europe.

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villagewinery t1_j8mubs6 wrote

EV prices are dropping, price cuts recently announced.

Have any more fud?

Do you know about technology adoption cost curves? Apparently not.

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PippenDunksOnEwing t1_j8n88yo wrote

Yes but they are nowhere close to "affordable and reasonable" for a regular worker like me.

Truth is Companies have eliminated entry level cars in the $15-20k range. That's what most of us need. Everything is at least one or two grades more expensive now.

Is there an EV at an entry level price? No. Entry level EVs are still very expensive. Also EVs will be complicated to repair so you have to bring them back to the dealership, again another expensive item. That's why only the rich will be able afford to drive.

How's that a fud??

0

arrouk t1_j8mb4ws wrote

There simply isn't enough resources to make them cheaper.

There isn't enough dug out of the ground to supply enough ev to everyone who has a vehicle.

Electric vehicles cannot replace the vast majority of commercial uses.

There isn't the infrastructure to charge all these ev.

There isn't a way to charge most of these ev.

There isn't enough green energy available so we would be using fossil fuels to charge a vehicle so they don't use fossil fuels.

As much as I agree we need to move away from fossil fuels there needs to be a lot more planning and thought before this kind of thing actually occurs.

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Kiriann t1_j8mt368 wrote

> There isn't enough green energy available so we would be using fossil fuels to charge a vehicle so they don't use fossil fuels

From what I recall, the efficiency of gas ICE vehicles' engines is so bad (less than 30% energy used) that even if you used a oil driven electric generator to charge a electric vehicles that would still be more energy efficient overall.

It doesn't matter that we would, for now, have to generate energy via non-green power plants, because the overall energy efficiency would still be better (60% energy efficiency) Also, it's far easier to handle pollution in a single place than to have each individual vehicle having their half-assed filters.

People also forget the energy lost converting oil to gas, and also the distribution itself creates pollution

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arrouk t1_j8muzpc wrote

Let's not forget all the inefficiency in the manufacture of those vehicles and the efficiency of the power being generated.

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Kiriann t1_j8mwe4w wrote

> efficiency of the power being generated

That's what I said. Power plant are far more energy efficient than ICE vehicles (around 60%), and the electric car itself is about 90% energy efficient.

> Let's not forget all the inefficiency in the manufacture of those vehicles

Which would be almost the same as an ICE vehicle? Besides that, electric vehicle should last more than ICE ones.

An ICE vehicle transmission has around 20 moving parts in it's transmission, requires oil chance and a lot of maintenance. Electric vehicles' transmission consists of 3 parts and require way less maintenance.

A good battery also lasts a long time. TESLA batteries average capacity after 10 years of usage is around 90%.

Even the brake pads are better conserved in electric vehicles because of their electromagnet regenerative breaking.

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arrouk t1_j8n27oz wrote

No the carbon foot print of an ev is far higher than that of a conventional combustion engine car, especially when you also factor in the shipping of parts around the world to allow for construction.

Electric was never a good option tbh, the funding would have been far better spent developing hydrogen or bioethonol systems, bioethonal being very close to petrol but more efficient in volumetric efficiency and close to carbon neutral over a 3 year cycle with the added bonus of it being possible to also convert existing petrol vehicles lowering the costs over the next 10-15 considerably. Diesels can also be run on different heavy oils such as peanut oil, lowering their carbon foot print considerably

Edit because u/mjfi4cp2 blocked me.

>I actually thought it was closer to 4x the energy.

>There isn't the investment in in the process to do it cheaper though, remember before an eccentric billionaire spent a fortune on battery technology it was unbelievably expensive to build an electric car.

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mjfi4cp2 t1_j91fke6 wrote

Hydrogen: Using three times more energy per mile for no good reason

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villagewinery t1_j8msssy wrote

False on all counts.

Lithium is incredibly abundant, and besides that, battery tech is evolving to eliminate rare components like cobalt and shift to sodium and iron, which are even cheaper. Next cones solid state batteries that will be more powerful, safer, and last even longer.

Most EV owners charge at home on standard infrastructure.

Night time load (when EVs are usually charging) helps utilities and actually smooths out grid loads and electricity pricing.

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arrouk t1_j8mtvhj wrote

I disagree and would love to read some professional articles that have evidence and reference to fact for what you are saying.

I'm in the electrical industry and we are being told the opposit.

Also charging at home becomes difficult when many park on the street.

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mjfi4cp2 t1_j91fg4h wrote

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

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arrouk t1_j91l66t wrote

Yet you don't leave a single argument against it.

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mjfi4cp2 t1_j91ldn5 wrote

It takes less effort for you to be wrong than it does for me to correct you in detail.

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SilverNicktail t1_j8j0lju wrote

Honestly thought they'd already done this.

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kharjou t1_j8m64am wrote

Idk if that is uplifting. With current electric cars good luck going far for holidays. Its basically taking mobility away. And recharging takes so long. Imagine if everyone has an electric car and tries to go on holidays.

They're doing it way too fast. Also they're still not addressing the lithium pollution problem. Moving around pollution is nice for big cities but in the end it will bit us back in the butt

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mjfi4cp2 t1_j91fpg0 wrote

You’re going to be really mad when you find out how petrol and diesel are made

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kharjou t1_j91h3op wrote

There has been studies to compare the current electric and gaz cars. A few years ago it was 100 000 km to break even and then the gaz car is worse. Issue being, accidents and unsold cars make it not much better. At best its slightly better.

The main point of electric cars id just displacement of pollution. You fuck up the eco system too but not in populated cities so people dont care. Thats not a long term solution.

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mjfi4cp2 t1_j91ised wrote

Was that the one published by the group funded by a shell company owned by the Aston Martin director’s wife? The real number is more like 30000 km, but it depends on the local grid. Some places are better, some are worse.

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ussdefiantguy t1_j8ljjmv wrote

Enjoy the brownouts and blackouts.

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palegate t1_j8m3tno wrote

Considering the timescale and adoption rate, serious governments should have enough time to invest heavily in energy.

0

cadillac_rancher t1_j8lzcbi wrote

Now let’s talk about the energy grid….

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mjfi4cp2 t1_j91f8ot wrote

The EU energy grid?

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catalin66 t1_j8mfojv wrote

You assumed we're talking about Texas, USA :/

−1

HoldenDickensuch t1_j8mogej wrote

You are getting far too much of your news from reddit if you first thought when you hear poor energy grid is Texas

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buzzkill-lightyear t1_j8lmsrk wrote

so cheaper fuel for the rest of us?

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IkeaIsLegendary t1_j8lua92 wrote

No, now they price gouge the fuck out of it as people with standard combustion cars have no other option aside from buying a new electric car.

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DontJuggleKittens t1_j8kypwx wrote

Never owned an electric car. Maybe it's time to look into one.

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atomkidd t1_j8mx3e5 wrote

Glad to see exemptions for small manufacturers. It would be a cultural tragedy to ban Ferrari, Lambourgini and similar from selling proper cars.

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Comprehensive-Leg752 t1_j8m96wd wrote

Bold of them to assume we'll have an equally affordable and efficient replacement in 12 years. Right now, EVs are incredibly expensive and have issues regarding recharging. It takes a while compared to popping gas in a tank and also charging stations are few and far between. And those are two issues I can think of at the moment.

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freename188 t1_j8n50gs wrote

This is good.

But it's a bit of a double edged sword. No way Ireland has the public transportation infrastructure to replace people getting priced out of the market with electric cars. They're prohibitively expensive.

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DarthSchu t1_j8n93ho wrote

The average person can not afford an electric vehicle. You are just punishing the middle and poor classes. Also, have you ever seen lithium mining or how they recycle the batteries for these electric vehicles? Yea it is absolutely horrible for the environment!

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mjfi4cp2 t1_j91fvcy wrote

You’re going to be really mad when you find out how petrol and diesel are made

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1500moody t1_j8olh53 wrote

this will go horribly wrong mark my words

1

OttawaTGirl t1_j98qtoh wrote

EV is only one tech. I am sure we will have a mixed system. Hydrogen is a very important tech for vehicles because it is remote friendly.

I think you will find a lot of EVs in cities and hydrogen vehicles in rural areas where electricity can be more expensive.

I am curious to see how hydrogen production can be not only scaled up, but scaled down.

1

wilbersk t1_j8mqob6 wrote

More posturing that won’t happen

0

Glaucetas_ t1_j8xl72s wrote

Great, now create recyclable batteries and with materials that do not come from mines that totally destroy the ecosystem, created cost-effective and environmentally friendly green energy, make electrical car cheaper, apply this to any cars that drive in the EU, make electric cars that have as much range as thermal engines, and that last as long over time.

​

I don't really see it as a uplifting news... As usual, it really look like that they voted this to please "3 or 4 eco people" and give themselves a good image. Whereas basically, it's impossible to apply, and it won't be done on the date indicated.

−1

Thialase t1_j8ja65p wrote

I wish they'd make it 2030.
I'd also like to see electric cars becoming cheaper. Especially in countries with high taxes on them.

−14

netz_pirat t1_j8jmk08 wrote

Iirc most manufacturers are phasing out ice cars by 2030 anyway

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Seven2572 t1_j8jh365 wrote

With the way governments and corporations act this will only be an excuse to make them more expensive

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Thialase t1_j8jocsl wrote

taxes on cars in denmark already cost 150%
It's disgusting.

2