Fining unprepared drivers that cause closures in pass: what are your thoughts?

Submitted by revilo825 t3_zr0jrj in Washington

I am going to reference only Snoqualmie Pass in this post as that is what I’m most familiar with.

It has become absurd how frequently the pass closes. As someone that enjoys winter sports, it’s infuriating that every time we get good powder, the pass closes due to spin outs, accidents, jackknifed semis, etc.

I’m at a point now where I am curious if anyone else feels this frustration or if I’m being unreasonable in my expectations.

My thought is that there should be some big fat fines for anyone that does not explicitly follow WSDOT’s guidance, AND causes an incident that results in the pass or lane closures. (Perhaps in the form of a percentage of someone’s income so it’s not so regressive). Is there anything else that can be implemented other than monetary punishment to dissuade people?

Let’s hear your thoughts.

And to add: If someone knows the statistics for what human created incidents cause the pass to be closed, I would love to see that. (Semis, cars driving without proper tires, or without chains when required, people driving under the influence, etc). Perhaps my assumption that it’s mostly under equipped vehicles is inaccurate.

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Xbalanque_ t1_j115vhe wrote

They should get a ticket for not following requirements to chain up or have traction tires. I am sure that some people do.

On an un-related note: does "powder" mean "any new snow" now?

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revilo825 OP t1_j11mz1c wrote

I suppose at this point, I should have just said any new snow, because it seems like people can’t even drive with an inch on the ground.

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MarmotMossBay t1_j11ygqh wrote

The snow was pretty dry at our house, so I imagine it might be better than usual.

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PerezosoRapido t1_j110y0l wrote

Yeah I mean I would love to take the nephew up sledding but I don’t have chains, all season tires, and a 2WD suv. People just force the issue and wing it and wind up in a ditch.

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Broccolini_Cat t1_j15fs4m wrote

The improvements in cars actually embolden people to be more confidently risky. Thirty years ago when I hit the slopes everyone drove FWD sedans, chains on, at 25mph up the pass. Nowadays people with huge AWD SUVs and all-season tires fly by me at 60+mph.

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Wellcraft19 t1_j162jur wrote

Very true. It’s insane (crazy speeds) especially down from the pass westbound. I drive a large SUV, and not even the best tires can overcome the basic laws of physics. The larger the vehicle, the slower you should go.

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MaddMardigan74 t1_j16xk5e wrote

To be honest people in big SUVS with 4wd did the same back then and wrecked. Today there are just more idiots. As someone that grew up around the fire department I was taught 4wd also means 4wheels to stop.

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homunculajones t1_j11aa9i wrote

Theoretically WSDOT is going to be increasing enforcement of the chains requirements, per this article from a couple of weeks ago: https://komonews.com/news/local/wsp-enforcement-drivers-chain-requirements-passes-mountains-snow-citations-troopers-ticket-wsdot-washington-winter-weather We shall see...

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revilo825 OP t1_j11ovwi wrote

Hey thanks for sharing this! We shall see indeed.

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Lupine-lover t1_j15b1jc wrote

I drive over to Winthrop once a month via I-90 then Blewett Pass. I never use highway 2…it’s an accident waiting to happen. I have to say I mostly see overturned semis more than car spin outs. They should know better. Just this last few days Blewett was closed for 2 overturned semis. I’ve seen a huge crane have to show up and get a big semi off its side. The worst thing is returning to SEA, once you start down from the summit, the trucks, in the far left lane start making up time and drive fast and like complete maniacs. It can be so dangerous in winter conditions.

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revilo825 OP t1_j15owgo wrote

That must be so frustrating when you’re doing that drive so much! And good call on hwy 2. That’s a winter driving nightmare.

The semis are a HUGE problem. I follow WSDOT on social media as they are very good with their communication; I feel like a lot of human caused closures are jack knifed and overturned semis. But they also frequently mention unprepared drivers. It’s actually what spurred me posting this yesterday.

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pala4833 t1_j11aljz wrote

Can we instead start with all the people who refuse to leave the left hand lane until 4 seconds before their exit.

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mommaletitbe t1_j126324 wrote

At the Oregon passes like Santiam, when ODOT's sign says "Carry Chains" they mean it. Even if you are not required to chain up, you will be fined $888 for not having chains in your vehicle in case you need them. I've heard numerous people express regret after paying that hefty fine.

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revilo825 OP t1_j128kaf wrote

That is nice to know. How do they enforce it? Do they stop everyone and check their vehicles? Or is it just if they happen to be doing a stop for another reason?

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mommaletitbe t1_j129jr8 wrote

Two stories told by friends were of slight spinouts , one at the top of the pass, the other on the downhill side. When they called for help the police arrived quickly and they were ticketed. Don't know about the others. I've never seen any law enforcement car on any pass. Just went over two different ones about 10 days ago. Both were snowpacked, I didn't chain up, but had no problems.

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revilo825 OP t1_j12f0a4 wrote

That makes sense. I think that is a good policy to ticket at that point. Just wish there was something more preventative. I guess just getting the word out, for now 😔

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doktorhladnjak t1_j11oe6r wrote

Will fines change behavior? Maybe if they are strictly and regularly enforced. That costs money, puts a financial burden on many people, and limits what else state patrol does with officer time.

It’s not clear how much it would really move the needle here.

The root cause of closures is inclement weather leading to more dangerous driving conditions. Yeah, people should be more prepared but carelessness is not the root cause of the closures.

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revilo825 OP t1_j11q7xv wrote

You’re definitely right about the costs associated with it.

Maybe storms are getting worse than they used to be so it’s more noticeable? I don’t ever recall the pass being closed as much as it has been over the past 5 or so years.

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heII_yeah_BROTHER t1_j12ye4m wrote

It feels like Covid really threw a wrench in outdoor activities. They’re a lot more crowded/stressful now.

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revilo825 OP t1_j12yiyj wrote

I completely agree. It seems to have really accelerated people getting outside, which is great… but the education maybe hasn’t caught up.

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AdAdventurous8225 t1_j12mmb9 wrote

I'm a retired CDL bus driver. I did medical transport for VA Seattle & when I was told that I was either taking someone to Eastern Washington/or picking someone up, I had my to go bag packed (my meds, pj's & change of clothing) cover alls if I needed to put on my chains. I never understand drivers not prepared. Yes fine them. A bunch too like $1,000

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Anaxamenes t1_j11j3s7 wrote

I don’t think after an accident is a good time. The simple reason is their car is banged up in a ditch. Their already occupied with insurance and recovery so I actually think another ticket on top of that would be lost on that type of person. You’d have to do something before they got in the accident so perhaps enforcement beforehand that is harder to ignore.

Perhaps a state mandated insurance increase if you get in an accident without the proper traction devices. It’s something you could advertise ahead of time and most people are price sensitive and might actually pay attention.

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revilo825 OP t1_j11pn1b wrote

I think you’re probably right about the timing of a ticket like that. Insurance would definitely be a spot to hit people.

Enforcement beforehand is so tough. It would be nice in theory, but the time it would take to enforce, both in law enforcements time (and their safety) and in taxpayer dollars. I feel like it just never pans out.

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Anaxamenes t1_j11tzcn wrote

That’s why I thought of you could advertise a negative effect like insurance rates going up for not having traction tires, the perhaps it might help people make better decisions. Once they crash, you’ve already lost, they will blame it on anyone but their own lack of preparedness.

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justpickituplease t1_j1130sc wrote

I think those laws are already in place . But are they enforced, that's another question ❓

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revilo825 OP t1_j11p7mz wrote

I think you’re right, but I guess my frustration might just be that it seems the problem persists and I’m curious what people think could be done to minimize the closures.

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SavvyExploring t1_j12abyv wrote

I wonder if it is more a lack of proper equipment or there failure to pull over and put chains on when conditions warrant it?

We helped get a capable SUV with summer tires on out of the ditch just a couple of weeks ago. They said they had chains, but even after we got them out they didn't install them.

For people who don't have them, think it would help if there were convenient shops where you could rent them and a sign to "turn of here" if you don't have them? I know that has its own complications since so many vehicles are restricted to cables or socks.

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revilo825 OP t1_j12g1kb wrote

I should start by saying, when I’m referencing chains, I’m also referring to cables as well(they are included in the law when referencing chains).

That is annoying that they still proceeded to drive without them. I know it can be intimidating to install chains for the first time, but even then, I’m pretty sure there are people in the chain off area that will install them for you for like $20.

And when chains are required, they generally have signs pretty far out telling you, so at that point common sense should come into play. But asking for common sense is where hope is lost I guess 😂

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SavvyExploring t1_j12hr49 wrote

Sadly so!

Interesting, I've never seen the people who will install them for you, but I guess I usually avoid the busy hours. That is a cool service!

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Wellcraft19 t1_j163cx3 wrote

It’s a lack of common sense, stemming from the fact that people don’t get a chance to practice - and build up a healthy respect for winter driving - when younger. Then add to that all ever more potent cars combined with modern gimmickry that’s supposed to ‘solve all problems’. Add to that, safety equipment such as winter - even studded - tires are used to increase speed. Not safety. In the winter, high horsepower is often your worst enemy (but sure can be fun when out doing loops on a lake).

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midlife123 t1_j12eyna wrote

I have been on hwy 97 at a road check point guess what they were asking to see your chains. I was driving a car not a truck got turned around and a ticket.

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Worstcase_Rider t1_j11t5q5 wrote

While we're on this train of thought... why aren't all tickets based on income? I want speeding tickets, parking tickets errithang crazy high unless you show your tax return from last year.

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revilo825 OP t1_j129kh7 wrote

I could get on board with a more progressive ticketing system. Though I cringe at the idea of putting my full tax returns in more hands than necessary. Maybe some sort of IRS verification. Probably a lot of hoops to jump through on that one though 😅

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Worstcase_Rider t1_j12a3t7 wrote

Yeah. Not sure of the best way either. But the feds have our info. Should be a simple and anonymous query states should be able to do and bam they assign the ticket.

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lurker-1969 t1_j114kgt wrote

And flog the 1000's of idiot drivers too.

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Rocketgirl8097 t1_j12oiub wrote

How can you prove everything is happening because of negligence? Obviously not using chains when posted, but sometimes shit just happens.

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revilo825 OP t1_j12qbow wrote

I don’t think it is outrageous to think information on this topic might exist. It’s not that hard to prove that a car causing an accident doesn’t have traction tires. Or doesn’t have chains on.

But I would like to add that I very clearly expressed in my post that I might be incorrect in this assumption, and would be interested to know if it exists.

Edit: I also never said “everything”.

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Rocketgirl8097 t1_j15e9dg wrote

Sorry when I wrote "you" I wasn't meaning you specifically. It's just a manner of writing to mean anybody.

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revilo825 OP t1_j15nzac wrote

Ah, just a misunderstanding :)

I do think it could be proven, but I guess it’s a matter of the resources to do it.

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Rocketgirl8097 t1_j15p014 wrote

I think there probably are studies. But inexperience, say overcorrecting or going too fast for conditions aren't necessarily negligence. I mean right now my street is an ice rink and 10 mph is too fast for conditions.

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revilo825 OP t1_j15pxl5 wrote

I definitely agree about the inexperience. People have to get experience somehow. They should just be considered negligent if they don’t chain up when required. Or if it is very obvious that they were driving too fast for conditions (I.e. damage done to vehicle/guardrails/etc)

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Gloomy-Employment-72 t1_j12vly6 wrote

I’m good with fining folks who snarl traffic. If you get lost in the woods, or they have to pluck you off a mountain, you can be stuck with a bit SAR bill. I’d say the same logic should apply to idiots who are not prepared to deal with snowy conditions.

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MayorEricBlazecetti t1_j1389ic wrote

Stop people before they snarl traffic. Set up checkpoints at the bottom of each side and turn people around.

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Gloomy-Employment-72 t1_j142v4r wrote

I'm good with that too. Save the idiots from themselves.

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gca4 t1_j158i6l wrote

Here's my opinion on this checkpoint. The other Saturday I headed to Leavenworth for the Xmas lights. We drove the whole way with minimal traffic.

We got to within 3 miles of town and boom, traffic jam. We waited 3.5 hours until we got to the source of the traffic jam, it was a 4 way stop sign.

Putting an individual at a checkpoint looking for traction devices would have a similar effect. I don't see any good solutions evident.

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non-member t1_j152rw7 wrote

I’m all for a multi thousand dollar fine for unprepared drivers that cause accidents on the pass… and add another $10k and a license suspension for anybody with a commercial license.

If something like that were actively enforced we’d have nearly zero accidents on the passes.

They also need to go after the truckers who seem to love speeding in this weather. I can’t count how many times I’ve either been almost run off the road or totally blinded by truckers throwing tidal waves of slush while they’re doing highway speeds in conditions that call for 20-30 mph.

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brenawyn t1_j15ewhi wrote

On the Sierras chains are required. They will make you go back down if they catch you without

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revilo825 OP t1_j15o3xz wrote

And this seems to result in people following the law? It seems like it might just be a matter of enforcement!

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ewicky t1_j12lsim wrote

You don't think crashing your car is enough of a monetary penalty? Slapping a fine on top is going to do nothing to change behavior. And the people aware of the theoretical fine are not likely the one's who "need a talking to".

Instead, mandatory checkpoints could be the expectation at this point. Normally I'm not a fan of that type of government oversight, but the general public and even professional truck drivers simply cannot be trusted. And, as you point out, keeping the pass open is a team effort and critical infrastructure. In heavy snow conditions, they should simply have a toll-booth style "every single one of y'all need chains on at least 2 tires".

They need to end the exemption for AWD vehicles. AWD doesn't help you turn or stop. Winter tires or chains are the only way.

They also could crack down on deceptive marketing of new AWD vehicles drifting through multiple feet of fresh powder with taglines like "power through your winter getaways". These are the same vehicles that come with 4 rock-hard fuel-saving highway tires that nobody bothers to inspect, change, or even inflate in the first few years of ownership.

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MayorEricBlazecetti t1_j1386p0 wrote

Washington State Police need to start actually enforcing it. I went over the pass recently and was surrounded by unchained camry's and priuses.

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Riyeko t1_j140ot2 wrote

You could always do what Wyoming does..,

As a CDL trucker when Wyoming closes i80 due to weather and you keep going, it's a felony depending on how much damage or how long you kept the road closed.

It's really dangerous not just for you who is crashing, but rescue services from the tow truck drivers to the police making sure people don't crash into them while they work.

So charge people upwards of whatever it is now (read a while ago maximum fines were $10,000 and 30 days in jail)

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TheBewitchingWitch t1_j14djyx wrote

It absolutely needs a fine & laws as well as enforcement. If it were, maybe situations like this could be avoided. My husband and I don’t drive in snow, at all. Two years ago his job said if you don’t come in you are fired. My son also works at the same place. This is a man who does not call out and arranges days off with PTO months ahead of time. They ended up getting stuck on the I-5 for 8 hours with several other people, including his boss. We keep an emergency kit in the car. Blankets, water, food, hand warmers and candles. Neither one got fired. They do both work at different shops now after that incident. I have seen Mount Jimeny in MA state require employees to come to work even when their governor declares a state of emergency declaring no one on the road. The do not provide their employees accommodations if the get stuck on the mountain. It’s a $1000 fine there. Laws like this could protect more then just your average driver!

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[deleted] t1_j11jorz wrote

[removed]

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revilo825 OP t1_j11ortc wrote

Meow. Someone has a bone to pick. I was just spitballing ideas and left the floor open for conversation. No need to get your panties in a bunch with unrelated, mindless assumptions.

You sound like a Tucker Carlson rant: “Socialist Sawant Bot thinks drunk drivers should only be ticketed if they cause an accident!”

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[deleted] t1_j125hyb wrote

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revilo825 OP t1_j128g48 wrote

I think the government “should play baby sitter” because the passes being closed has a large impact on the local communities, people that rely on it as their commute, and also transportation of goods. And most importantly, the person causing accidents because they thought their AWD with summer tires and no chains was good enough, is putting the lives of everyone else on the road at risk by driving with an unprepared vehicle. It’s not so simple.

Perhaps a fine isn’t the solution. But traction tires, chains, etc being required when conditions justify it, is absolutely necessary.

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AthenaWarrior22 t1_j12f2jc wrote

And yet... not at "your" own risk- accidents KILL people, cause harm of people & vehicles, stops commerce. I can't think of one decision that can't ultimately affect others... individualism is a lie we tell ourselves that we can do whatever we want, even if harmful. We are all interconnected in so many ways.

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[deleted] t1_j12ptd6 wrote

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revilo825 OP t1_j1543jj wrote

If someone gets killed, at least the driver at fault will get legal punishment??! That is so freaking reactive. Why not just be proactive. It’s hardly asking much.

Chains/cables cost like $40-$80 and take less than 20 minutes to install on the front two tires. And I even saw someone in another comment say that Les Schwab let’s you return them at the end of the season if they didn’t get used.

Someone can have summer/non snow tires. I’m not trying saying the state needs to dictate expensive purchases like that. They should just be putting chains on if they are driving in snowy/icy conditions.

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