Why can’t any restaurants survive here

Submitted by aphid123 t3_ytggsp in baltimore

I moved here post pandemic and it seems like every other week I see another restaurant/store closing down shop in popular areas. Has it always been this way? Are there just not enough people supporting small businesses?

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No-Lunch4249 t1_iw41gvl wrote

Don’t remember the exact stat but the majority of small restaurants fail in their first 3 years or something like that. It’s not unique to Baltimore

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Kleeetz t1_iw4f5xk wrote

Jon Taffer entered the chat

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Ok-Huckleberry3752 t1_iw6hu97 wrote

TAFFER: I have friends in the military who train military dogs Laura [Ingraham], and they only feed a military dog at night, because a hungry dog is an obedient dog. Well, if we are not causing people to be hungry to work, then we are providing them with all the meals they need sitting at home.

Source: https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-news-guest-says-poor-people-are-dogs-need-be-starved-be-kept-obedient

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Real-Ray-Lewis t1_iw5lupp wrote

And think about how many restaurants there are in the city. Such a huge supply of em. Hard to meet fuck

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wbruce098 t1_iw7szve wrote

Add the unique stresses caused by the pandemic, followed by recent inflation and higher interest rates, and I’d be surprised if many more restaurants that usual aren’t close to folding right now.

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Expendable_Red_Shirt t1_iw3xu30 wrote

In the pandemic in Hampden I feel like I saw a lot of stores close down and restaurants open up in their place. It seemed like nobody was going out for things they could buy online but food wasn't that, so restaurants spouted up. Now things might be oversaturated?

Restaurant fail rates are also super high in general.

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Whatwouldahoneybeedo t1_iw4dg16 wrote

I gotta think the rent has something to do with it. These restaurants typically don’t own the building and rent isn’t cheap, commercial or residential.

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Timid_Teacher t1_iw57dyu wrote

I'm kind of disappointed with the things that have gone in on the Avenue lately. I live in Hampden and I am not interested in any of the new places. Ever since Trohv went out several years ago, it seems like the Avenue is not as much of a hot spot as it used to be.

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daxophoneme t1_iw5ocoi wrote

David's furniture store leaving was the sign of the end times for me

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Timid_Teacher t1_iw6zacw wrote

That was before my time. I've lived here for 7+ years and the Avenue has slowly gone downhill during that time.

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YoYoMoMa t1_iwdhjdw wrote

This is what everyone says about every time period of the avenue though. People just fall in love with what they first knew.

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Timid_Teacher t1_iwefawe wrote

I guess that's true, but I know Trohv leaving The Avenue was a huge travesty.

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DfcukinLite t1_iw5g7yx wrote

There’s so many cool boutiques and shops on the avenue still I was just bopping around them with a friend that lives there couple weeks ago when it was a beauty day. Lots of people out.

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brocialism t1_iw71nlb wrote

Spring Cafe, Tia's (the water ice place), and Jerk Taco were great additions IMO

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Timid_Teacher t1_iw9fp46 wrote

Spring Cafe looks cool, but I always worry that it's going to go under because I never see anyone there. The new hot dog place looks like it won't last. Then there's a bunch of empty storefronts because of Waffie, the Middle Eastern place that looks like it might finally open soon, the Urban Oyster sign that's been sitting there for almost a year, etc. Also, that Bar Fusion that used to be Bella Italia is a pain in the butt. They blast music halfway down the street and it's obnoxious.

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Typical-Radish4317 t1_iw53ck4 wrote

I always try to check out new places because of that initial fail rate. I wish Baltimore had more just restaurants though - i don't know why almost every restaurant in Baltimore has to center around a bar. Like, mentally, I'm not going to grab lunch in a bar

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YoYoMoMa t1_iwdhrc4 wrote

>i don't know why almost every restaurant in Baltimore has to center around a bar

Because so much of the building stock in Baltimore are long and narrow spaces that do not set up well for a restaurant only.

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smoovgee t1_iw4e678 wrote

Per SBA, 75% of all restaurants fail within 2 years. There's a reason why resturantuers get investors and not bank loans. Food costs and labor eats up all the money.

I remember reading an article about a 1 star Michelin chef owner who had to clean her own grease traps because she couldn't afford the $1000 cost.

There's a reason why Subway only gives you 2 napkins. Why McDonald's and Wendy's only give you ketchup if you ask for it.

All of it adds up.

Several of Gordon Ramsey's early restaurants failed.

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ChrisInBaltimore t1_iw481hj wrote

I’ve been going to Swallow at the Hollow for about 10 years and they are still going strong.

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guest0112 t1_iw49se9 wrote

That place gets better every time I’m there. Haven’t met a bad person there, either

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Aol_awaymessage t1_iw4wb3t wrote

I remember going there in 2002 with a fake ID. The basement was so dark and filled with cigarette smoke and spilled beer.

I loved it. Sometimes I miss that kind of bar vibe- isn’t that weird?

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gaytee t1_iw69vwa wrote

Nope not at all, there is a reason dive bar is the most popular type of bar. Most people don’t need anything more than what most dives offer: A place to sit, have a cheap drink or 20 and have a burger or wings without getting sick.

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cmraarzky t1_iw5o8x4 wrote

I graduated college in 2012 and frequented Swallows... My roommates grandfather used to go to there too. That place is in it for the long haul.

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S-Kunst t1_iw53usq wrote

Yes, always a good meal, but more bar food.

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DfcukinLite t1_iw3y822 wrote

Yeah shitty places tend to go out of business. What popular high profile restaurant went out of business since you’ve been here… and the keywords are popular and high profile?

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aphid123 OP t1_iw3yllu wrote

The point is that it doesn’t seem like there are many super popular places to begin with. But like bond street social seemed popular, and it’s closed now. And small businesses that are successful elsewhere fail here—ie the H&M at the inner harbor.

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DfcukinLite t1_iw3ytt1 wrote

Lmao How did you come to that conclusion? Bond street was popular in 2013 and died last year due to poor management. H&M isn’t a small business. It’s a major global corp. it left when they officially closed the Light Street Pavilion.

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7h33v1l7w1n t1_iw47c1q wrote

cause nobody wants to go to the inner harbor to shop at fucking H&M???

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sellwinerugs t1_iw4qq5n wrote

Fuck H&M they shred their old styles and landfill them instead of donating to non-profits/charity like other clothing retailers because they don’t want to see “the poors” wearing their styles (will hurt their image) If OP says h&m closed in Baltimore it’s probably because people here are smart and don’t want that garbage. Good riddance

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KevinOMalley t1_iw4fmf9 wrote

Oh yeah the h&m small business that only does $25 billion a year in global revenue.

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dopkick t1_iw4opfi wrote

Bond Street Social was popular but the “early 30s bachelorette party” crowd has moved on

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cdbloosh t1_iw51i8t wrote

You could have given me 500 guesses on what your answers to that question would have been and I wouldn’t have gotten either of those. Man those are some strange places to choose to make your flawed point.

A terrible, overpriced fake-upscale bro bar in Fells and a chain business in a dying tourist trap mall. If those can’t survive, what possibly could?!

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childrenofthewind t1_iw4pyrg wrote

There are MANY popular restaurants that have been doing great over the years

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gaytee t1_iw6ai4a wrote

Honestly you’re catching a ton of shade, but there are a few places that made it for sure, that said, the “good” options for anything in town are fairly limited. Even for the city that’s got world renown crab cakes there’s still probably only 20-25 spots on the list that are must go to. I’ve even had bad crab cakes many times in baltimore.

But if you go to Boston? Every single bar and gas station will claim they have the best chowder and they’ll all be pretty damn good. There’s still something lacking here in the nightlife and bar scene for sure. If this is ever to be a real city, you shouldn’t have to take an Uber to get to a good block with bars and shit.

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Dr_Midnight t1_iw4n3al wrote

I'm going to speak to something with specific regard to Midtown-Mt. Vernon, and the unforeseen ramifications that can result from a change to neighborhood.

Particularly along the N. Charles Street corridor spanning the range of Mt. Vernon Place through Preston, there was nightlife there for years and restaurants that would also be open for varying times throughout the week.

Generally speaking, Maryland Liquor Laws limit establishments to staying open until 2AM, and most places on weekends would serve that time frame - save for after hour spots that would stay open longer. Those places attract people, and, in particular, attract foot traffic - especially in a place like Midtown-Mt. Vernon where parking is relatively very limited.

In the past decade, however, the area has seen the closure of Emma's, Eden's Lounge, Mansion, the Elephant, the Hippo, Grand Central, and a few more night spots that all closed for one reason or another. Part of this has been a result of owners moving on (The Hippo and Eden's Lounge). Some of it has been a result of owners screwing up (Mansion). Part of it has come from developers taking over spaces and then doing nothing with them for literally over a decade (Eden's Lounge). There are other reasons, but the net result is that Mt. Vernon's nightlife is all but dead. Where the streets used to be filled with people in the night hours on Fridays and Saturdays, they're all gone.

One of those reasons in particular is community pressure (which also applied to both Mansion and Elephant) - particularly in that persons moving into the neighborhood for some reason did not want the nightlife there. I'll need understand the concept behind moving into a neighborhood that has a certain culture and then demanding that it change, but that's what we have here.

The restaurants in that area thrived on that foot traffic. Never on Sunday used to be open until 3AM on Fridays and Saturdays. Not anymore. The Spot was previously open and busy until 4AM on the same days. Those days are gone. Even Viccino's used to stay open late. That's no more as well.

No amount of employees from Agora (sorry, but it's true) going to those places day after day are going to keep them continually afloat.

Then came COVID-19 and that destroyed several that were on the margins already. City Cafe is gone, just to give an example.

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ice_cold_fahrenheit t1_iw4oj97 wrote

Wow as someone who lives in Mount Vernon I really feel that. It feels like I have to go to DC, or at least Fells Point or Pigtown, for an actual nightlife and it’s partly why 99% of the time I sit at home doing nothing but Reddit because there’s nothing interesting in my immediate vicinity.

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DfcukinLite t1_iw4vshu wrote

I mean you could go to station north, old goucher or Hampden..

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ice_cold_fahrenheit t1_iw4w1qy wrote

What’s there at Station North and Old Groucher?

EDIT: Ok there is the Crown at Station North. Maybe I should find a time to go there (though heard it can be very hit or miss depending on who’s playing).

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DfcukinLite t1_iw4xe1f wrote

Station north: The Royal Blue, Club Charles (club chuck), Metro Gallery, Tapas Teatro, The Depot, 1722, The Crown, Joe Squared, The Charles and Parkway Theaters, Alma Cocina Latina, Foraged, Le Comptoir du Vin, Guilford Hall Brewery and Jung kak

Old Goucher: Clavel, Wc Harlan, Dutch Courage, Church Bar, Faddensonnen, Ibar, No Land Beyond

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PigtownFoo t1_iw71lt7 wrote

Bummer that the North Avenue Market didn’t survive.

Station North/Old Goucher has the best nightlife in the city, IMO, for those not into the Fed/Canton/Fells scenes.

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PigtownFoo t1_iw718wp wrote

Wow. Thanks for considering Pigtown for nightlife!

As bad as Mt. Vernon may have it, our businesses really have it rough. Aside from Bob’s Bar (on the most dangerous intersection in the neighborhood), none of the other bars (the few we have) are open daily. And it’s not their faults…there’s just not enough business or money to go around in Pigtown to justify operating more than 3-4 days. It’s sad. The pandemic hit hard over here.

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danhalka t1_iw4qy7d wrote

That's a pretty good example, well laid out. I don't know a thing about the MV nightlife scene as of the mid 00's, but it used to be you could bounce from spot to spot more or less at an amble from Dionysus & BA to stable to pint size all the way down to midtown in the dead of winter without getting cold.. seems like more of a non-starter today.

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jesus_chen t1_iw80wz0 wrote

You are spot on with the Agora mention. Prior to 2020, there were about 1,500 Agora employees in Mt. Vernon that ate out for lunch mostly due to the awkward arrangement of the re-purposed classic MV buildings most Agora subsidiary companies occupy + an abundance of options. They key here being "lunch"; after 5PM, those 1,500 folks left MV for the surrounding counties or Fells/Canton/Fed Hill. The pandemic saw a drastic reduction in Agora employee presence, obviously, that impacted those lunch numbers (City Cafe was one of the first to go), and a reduction in the Agora workforce post-pandemic is not bringing any of those places back.

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DrPlatelet t1_iw4g9bt wrote

I was actually marveling at how resilient my favorite spots have been through the pandemic. If you consider bond street social a good restaurant then that explains everything.

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puptrait t1_iw4qste wrote

The cost of commercial leases have gone through the roof across the city and have only gotten worse since the pandemic shutdown.

I've been actively looking for a new location for our studio and it is absolutely unreal how many of the spaces we looked at in 2015 and 2018 have remained vacant, but are suddenly somehow 2x - 5x the cost.

Another big issue many businesses have been dealing with lately are the consequences of deferment arrangements they made with landlords during the pandemic.

In most commercial leases, rent automatically escalates when you're in breach (ie the entirety of your lease is immediately due, often at a premium). Which in itself isn't normally an issue if you pay your bills, but these deferment agreements often contain stipulations guaranteeing they remain tenants until the deferments are repaid, effectively committing tenants to (usually quasi-punitive) overstay terms or blindsiding them with TBD market rate renewals. That combo can incentive LLs with larger multi-property portfolios to force tenants into bankruptcy.

I'm not a lawyer or tax expert, but just to relay how it was explained to me by two business owners that were forced to close recently...

Say you've been on a 5 year term at $2,500 a month ($30k a year) and your rent was deferred for 6 months. You agree to pay that $15k back over 30mos as a manageable extra $500 a mo. Business returns mostly back to normal and you manage to pay the $3k as agreed. Things are tight, but doable. At least, until your lease comes up for renewal.

Suddenly rent is 2x the cost and now you're paying $5.5k - maybe even have to put down an additional $2.5k, just so your deposit equals a months rent. But you don't have $8k laying around, so you have no choice but to close.

But remember, not only is the back rent of $15k due, the remainder of the now $5k a mo 5 year lease you were forced into just escalated. Meaning, you now owe your LL $300k plus interest / fees / legal costs incurred from collection. At which point, you have no choice but to go into bankruptcy and your LL can then write off the bad debt against whatever they would otherwise owe in capital gains.

Considering by most accounts we're nearing the end of a massive real estate bubble, now isn't exactly the worst time to sell property. And if your immediate plans are to cash out, losing $30k in speculative revenue to save $300k in taxes is a no brainer for some.

TLDR: Commercial landlords with larger portfolios can often net more forcing restaurants out of business than from collecting rent

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shebang_bin_bash t1_iw50snl wrote

This sounds like an excellent reason to break up large landlords and then implement limits on how much any one entity can own. Right now we have feudalism but with all of the benefits to the lords and none of the obligations.

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puptrait t1_iw52rng wrote

A vacancy tax might be easier to implement on a local level. But I love where your head's at

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imperaman t1_iw5k2wq wrote

Why doesn't Baltimore have a vacancy tax? It would seem like a no-brainer, and a popular thing for a politician to run on, or to have a referendum for. DC charges 5% for vacant buildings, and 10% for blighted buildings. Baltimore charges the same 2.3% regardless of the state of the building. If Baltimore raised the tax rate on vacant/blighted buildings, they could afford to lower the rate for everyone else.

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SaveFailsafe t1_iw5l8bo wrote

One need only look into who owns the most vacants to discover why the city won't entertain a vacancy tax.

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fredblockburn t1_iw6tkg4 wrote

Who’s that?

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SaveFailsafe t1_iw75mwc wrote

The city government itself owns roughly 10% of the vacants. The rest are privately owned, but behind all the various LLCs are a few big money institutions squatting on property for speculative reasons. Institutions with lobbying power. Like Hopkins.

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WildMikeGreen38 t1_iw9fx58 wrote

> vacancy tax

Renting out places and making them rentable isn't an easy task. It takes money, time, effort and patience that people don't always have. It also ignores lawsuits, issues with the house that you don't know of and millions of other things.

If people are leaving a rentable place that can make them money empty, there's probably a real good reason for it. This is coming from someone who had all kinds of issues with mortgage companies, repairmen and bad tenants.

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[deleted] t1_iw6h09r wrote

[deleted]

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wbruce098 t1_iw7tzqe wrote

Everything’s impossible to enforce in Baltimore. Just, uh, not in any other city. It’s an excuse I’m tired of seeing. We are better than this!

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fijimermaidsg t1_iw3ysip wrote

Ebiken.

I was just noticing how many new places have been opening up post-pandemic... And Ebiken, they grown so much since their first place near Fells Point. I remember rushing there because there wasn't much Asian food places back then and now we have NiHao, Charming Elephant, Mona's Supernoodle...

Edit: And The Tilted Row, which opened right at the start of the pandemic - they survived too! They used to give out free food to the community,

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Brief_Exit1798 t1_iw3zgxi wrote

Ebiken flavor is unique and delicious.

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DfcukinLite t1_iw3zmpr wrote

Is it though?

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tastywiings t1_iw436z8 wrote

There’s a reason why it’s so popular lol

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DfcukinLite t1_iw43tcf wrote

Popular on Reddit. It’s not the first place to do a Asian fusion fried chicken bun nor southern style sides. Literally theres no new flavors and it is not unique. The only people that rave about it tend to be basic in nature. But if you like it I love it.

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dopkick t1_iw47jpl wrote

Unique food done well is really, really hard to come by.

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DfcukinLite t1_iw47udd wrote

Is it though?

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dopkick t1_iw481bs wrote

Yes? What is really that unique?

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DfcukinLite t1_iw48hfo wrote

I would say theres lots of places around town that are truly unique in flavor, they just don’t have a bunch of hype boys on Reddit, they also tend to be off the beaten path and minority owned.

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dopkick t1_iw48xu1 wrote

Such as? What’s your best 3 examples of something unique?

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Whatwouldahoneybeedo t1_iw4cpq1 wrote

I’m game to try some off the beaten path, any recommendations?

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LearnestHemingway t1_iw4rf1z wrote

I will be pleasantly surprised if you actually get an answer and it's not just "lots of places, do your research"

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cdbloosh t1_iw51b9w wrote

Well those sure are some great examples!

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DfcukinLite t1_iw51k95 wrote

I don’t expect anyone that lives in locust point to actually venture into the real city and patronize off the beaten path minority biz— why would I waste my time. I sent my recommendations privately to those actually interested.

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LearnestHemingway t1_iw56zkj wrote

Isn't it more effort to DM people you deem worthy than just posting it and giving them a plug for their business?

I'm sure you can understand how it makes it look like you are just making shit up on some "I have a girlfriend but she goes to another school" type shit

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cdbloosh t1_iw51pir wrote

Are these places so off the beaten path that they don’t even have names? Why are you refusing to name them? Also, how’d you know the person whose question you were originally replying to is from Locust Point?

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DfcukinLite t1_iw51rnl wrote

I’m talking about you.

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cdbloosh t1_iw51y7q wrote

Which has nothing to do with why you didn’t answer their question in the first place. Now, how about those examples

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dopkick t1_iw48sis wrote

It’s been like this ever since I’ve been here. And it happens elsewhere as well. The Fed Hill shopping area, despite being popular and relatively small, sees a ton of turnover and failed business. Margins are slim and its difficult to be successful.

I did meet a guy on a plane that works as a consultant to help people set up pizza shops. He said most people starting then have no clue what they’re doing from a business perspective. I assume that’s a thing in the larger restaurant industry and contributes to the high rate of failure.

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DolemiteGK t1_iw4fpt9 wrote

It's a saturated market - very tough to survive even if you have a good place

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wcmotel t1_iw4tcq3 wrote

Because most of them are extremely average.

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BlueFalconPunch t1_iw4dq46 wrote

tastes and styles change, some change and live some dont...see Kitchen nightmares, lots of places that were popular years ago but didnt change and the clients moved on.

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Bitsycat11 t1_iw4vm9t wrote

I've been going to Mick O'Shea's since like 2005, it's fine

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MissiontwoMars t1_iw57pxw wrote

Cost of food has driven up their costs and while some can manage to raise prices to customers not all can. It’s tight margins for restaurants and the math just doesn’t work out now for some.

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Unfair-Rip9168 t1_iw5li2b wrote

Only the strong survive. It’s a tough way to make a living.

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GoGoRouterRangers t1_iw63hy7 wrote

I think a combination of a lack of variety, location/parking, safety of said area, and pricing/ rent of location

Seems like Bmore has a TON of the same restaurant in the local area

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wheresmyrugman t1_iw6rs1r wrote

Seems like the older restaurants are closing due to lack of tourism in the city many people in the counties do not come down anymore and the new ones it’s just a hard environment for a new restaurant to make it post-pandemic

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ArtxVandelay t1_iw7eqt8 wrote

More and more restaurants are being owned by groups rather than people, so when things aren’t going well; groups cut their loses and close.

I think the example of Mount Vernon really shows in Station North as well

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66Yards t1_iw80mv8 wrote

My parents own a very big and successful restaurant in Baltimore city. They are selling the place after years and years of putting there heart and soul purely because of the crime. It’s truly sad.

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S-Kunst t1_iw53pz1 wrote

No. When I moved to Baltimore, (1984) there were many venerable old restaurants which were very interesting and part of the city fabric. Sadly most of them have died, mostly as younger the generations did not want to continue the family business. In their place have been a new generation of restaurants, though all in a new national style and often not locally owned. Many have had great food, but could be located anywhere in the country. Not quite a chain concept, but with none of the local color or interest.

Of course the pandemic has been a killer of all levels of restaurants.

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KY2I t1_iw70scy wrote

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Baltimore is just a crime and drug infested shithole

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Illustrious_Listen_6 t1_iw47pp4 wrote

Sadly Baltimore is a decaying city. Crumbling infrastructure, very dated. You don’t feel the growth or progression. Restaurants are taking their businesses elsewhere.

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