Submitted by Square_Tea4916 t3_11sthk3 in dataisbeautiful
Comments
Evignity t1_jcjtyi0 wrote
I'm actually confused at yanks believing in this without any proof.
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Do you know how viruses work, do you know the labs safety-precausions, do you have any reason to believe they were creating mutations of a virus and if so under such deplorable conditions etc.
I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying it's weird to jump at this so easily. Especially since it really doesn't matter apart from when officials want to shift blame.
Cold-Permission-5249 t1_jcfdyw6 wrote
We’ll never definitively know, but common sense, logic, and what little evidence we have all point to the most likely scenario being an accidental lab leak.
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfer2g wrote
There’s more than a little evidence
RandoCalrissian11 t1_jcfk6gs wrote
More than a little is understatement. It’s basically mountains of undeniable evidence, and one batshit (pun intended) crazy theory.
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfkv7p wrote
Lmao literally though. “Oh the pathogen wildly variant from any naturally occurring viruses just happened to naturally appear in the very area that was developing bio weapons using that exact virus”
I would call it copium but I want to give more credit and call it ignorance
QuizardNr7 t1_jchomtq wrote
and there we cross the line between bioterrorism and plausible accident at massive speed
[deleted] t1_jcfj9ty wrote
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Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcfisum wrote
There’s also plenty of evidence suggesting the opposite. The only reasonable answer to this question is “not sure” and the political polarization around it is unfortunate.
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfjbu6 wrote
You can believe something based on what evidence shows is most likely the case. Which would be a lab leak in wuhan.
Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcfkno8 wrote
The prevailing genetic evidence suggests natural. Timing suggests natural. You can’t just cherry pick your evidence.
4 intel agencies believe natural with low confidence. 2 intel agencies believe lab leak with low and moderate confidence.
You and me? We have zero confidence.
Sad-Efficiency-7492 t1_jcjssfd wrote
You’re citing intel agencies? They may be the most untrustworthy institutions on earth.
Fluorescent_Tip t1_jckzbfy wrote
What the hell other source is there? Let me get this straight, you only trust what confirms your own biases? Good grief - get a grip.
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcflpbi wrote
That ‘evidence’ is shoddy and outdated.
Besides, the government only just yesterday signed the declassification of origin information so we will have see for more.
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcflztx wrote
And that means intel agencies have more confidence in the lab leak so..
Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcfmczw wrote
No, that’s not how that works. But if you really want to do it the wrong way, it’s still +1 for natural.
hatethiscity t1_jcfnmxl wrote
Has self-proclaimed "no confidence" but argues passionately for one side more than the other. Makes sense.
Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcfnxhv wrote
My argument is for “not sure”.
[deleted] t1_jcjcfih wrote
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SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfmn19 wrote
- low confidence in natural
- low to moderate confidence in lab leak
- ‘low to moderate’ > ‘low’
Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcfnhuk wrote
Dude.
4 agencies claim low for natural. 1 agency claims low for lab leak, 1 moderate.
4 > 2
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfonqu wrote
So all confidence for natural is low and half confidence for lab leak is moderate
Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcforlp wrote
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfpymu wrote
So the theory with the most confidence was that it was a lab leak.
Then it comes down to which sources of evidence the intel committees give the most weight to. The most relevant sources of evidence imho really point in one direction but if you choose to follow the evidence given by sellouts then that is your prerogative.
[deleted] t1_jch0dcz wrote
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mynameismy111 t1_jcoctj5 wrote
Tell me more bout them missing wmds while ur at it
[deleted] t1_jcfk0oz wrote
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Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcflzp3 wrote
All the right can ever do is run rampant with their heads cut off believing conspiracy theories and scapegoating others. The instinct was right, but the practice was wrong. It’s not a cope to decry the situation.
[deleted] t1_jcfmhq2 wrote
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Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcfn9s8 wrote
Well, I think you’re taking that a bit too extremely
[deleted] t1_jcfns6g wrote
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Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcfooz8 wrote
Why do people claim to be left when they’re clearly not? And why do people latch onto one thing from the people they hate and ignore all the things from the people they like and then make extreme hypocritical arguments?
Geez, we’re all fucked.
Capn_Zelnick t1_jch1vaw wrote
Hoh, then you'll love how a reporter was fired for speaking against DeSantis. Idiot.
[deleted] t1_jch47p8 wrote
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Capn_Zelnick t1_jch52v5 wrote
So what I'm hearing is that it's permissible as long as the victim is an asshole?
[deleted] t1_jch678r wrote
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Capn_Zelnick t1_jch8fdh wrote
That's the stupidest thing. Other than claims of censorship, why else do you believe most leftists are fascists, especially when it is clear to see that most right people support things like the abolishing of abortion under any circumstance, a violation of women's rights, and can be considered authoritarian because of it?
mynameismy111 t1_jcoetcb wrote
No
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715
The lab leak theory ignores every variant since, was omicron delta beta ect all also separate lab leaks?
AnonAqueous t1_jcfd66a wrote
The committee on oversight and accountability sure does.
I find it more than a little concerning in terms of free speech and public truth that saying it came from a lab leak was enough to get one banned from social media and censored for disinformation back in 2020, and now these organizations are sheepishly admitting it's true.
[deleted] t1_jcfdxke wrote
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Infernalism t1_jcfc5u1 wrote
Just out of sheer morbid curiosity, what sort of difference does it make at this point?
simpkill t1_jcfd9x4 wrote
I think it makes a difference if it was created in a lab because: Either proper safety protocols weren't followed, or, they weren't in place at all, or worse, someone intentionally released the virus. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever know for sure and I don't know what to believe.
bdubdub t1_jcfhlmv wrote
IIRC the theory isn't that it was created in a lab, just that it had been identified in the wild but was being researched in a lab and one of the researchers was careless and got exposed to it.
mynameismy111 t1_jcoe56c wrote
Unfortunately for that theory no, we do know
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715
We have actual research on the ground from the actual wet market it spread from
COVID-19 was some magic mutant only a lab could make, look at every variant since, that's what natural evolution looks like, it spreads mutates, jumps species
That this is still rocket science to the public after three years it's freaking insane
But if the public wants to believe whatever conspiracy theory they want than what's the worse could happen again
simpkill t1_jcoxlbj wrote
Well I think what keeps people unsure is articles like this:
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/3/11/three-years-later-what-we-know-how-did-covid-19-start
And conspiracy theories aren't a problem. The government does and has conspired to cover things up. I'm not saying that is happening here, but I can't blame anyone for not trusting the authorities.
Square_Tea4916 OP t1_jcfdfhr wrote
If the "Lab Theory" is true, I'd like to know what happened leading to the millions of deaths around the world. There's 2 main avenues I can see:
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Accidental - Gap in Lab protocols caused a leak of the covid-19 virus as they were studying. This is the most likely (or would like to believe) scenario if you support the Lab theory.
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Intentional - Bad actors deliberately leaked the virus knowing the damage it could potentially cause. This has very dangerous implications.
Either way, it's in our very human nature to ask why and discover why something happened the way it happened in attempts to prevent or intervene in the future.
mynameismy111 t1_jcodk4p wrote
Unfortunately people will study conspiracy tv theories rather than actual scientific articles
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715
We know where it came from, the coronavirus (es) r among the most common natural pathogens and cross species contamination ( wet markets) encourage them to jump into new vectors and pandemic. It's been an obvious concern for decades, it happened before in China but everyone in the west forgot about. Therefore pandering them with creative lies works well on them.
PsychologicalDark398 t1_jcr1gdl wrote
Hmmm imo COVID fucked over China too( based on their economic performance right now and recent wave ) far too much for the 2nd option to even be considered but that doesn't mean lab leak theory is not possible. Not to mention how paranoid Xi was from 2020-2022 with his zero-COVID lockdowns and the recent massive waves there, which means he may have known something???.
Not to mention, Xi has been silently, suddenly caring about the the safety regulations of labs in China , something which they never bothered to do before. Maybe Xi knows something??? Why would he do this if he's so confident that it didn't come from a lab. Maybe because deep down he knows the Wuhan lab messed up???. Maybe???
ignigenaquintus t1_jcfjvoc wrote
It would be a good example of how dangerous any political narrative advocating for any form of censoring based on the official truth as per defined by the government truly is.
If in 2020 people claiming it could have come from a lab were accused of spreading misinformation (I wouldn’t have called it “the China virus” either way) and portrayed as conspiracy theorists, as I believe is the case, it also shows the terrible lack of responsibility and accountability of the mass media (not that social media is better).
I think the implications in regards of freedom of speech are obvious, as the excuse to use science as a new legitimate limitation of freedom of speech failed immediately even before this idea was proposed to the public opinion.
“Dr. Robert Redfield, former director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), testified how science indicates COVID-19 infections were likely the result of an accidental lab leak in Wuhan. His conclusion is based on the biology of the virus itself and unusual actions in and around Wuhan in 2019, including gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV).
Nicholas Wade—the former science and health editor at the New York Times, and former editor of Science and Nature—testified how Drs. Fauci and Collins used unverified data to dismiss the lab leak theory in favor of natural transmission.
Jamie Metzl testified how China’s government destroyed samples, hid records, imprisoned Chinese journalists, prevented Chinese scientists from saying or writing anything on pandemic origins without prior government approval, actively spread misinformation, and prevented an evidence-based investigation.
The mainstream media downplayed—and even denied—the scientific theory that COVID-19 emerged from the WIV.
Nicholas Wade testified about the campaign to discredit the lab leak theory. He pointed out that scientists kept in line with the natural origin camp led by Drs. Fauci and Collins because of their dependence on government grants and that the media failed to challenge the forced narrative.
All witnesses agreed that the possibility of COVID-19 originating from a lab is not a conspiracy theory.”
mynameismy111 t1_jcodvi6 wrote
"Fauci, mainstream" ah yes right wing buzzwords from those sooooooo concerned about COVID they blocked any efforts to fight the pandemic no matter how small.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715
We know how and where COVID-19 came from
Also.... Did China release new batches around the world for each new variant? Oh wait invisible data destroyed allegedly according to those with no political schemes
[deleted] t1_jcfiet8 wrote
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Cold-Permission-5249 t1_jcfddbv wrote
Because if it was indeed a lab leak, the world could try to implement policies that stop something like this happening again before it starts. If it was from nature, there’s not much humans can do aside from having pandemic response policies.
mynameismy111 t1_jcof74c wrote
If? It's happened before
SARS was initially present in an as-yet unknown animal reservoir, perhaps bats, and was passed to civet cats, relatives of the mongoose. Evidence shows that as it circulated in the civet cats, it gained mutations that allowed it to cross over into humans in 2002-03. More than 8,000 people worldwide became sick with SARS and 774 died.
mynameismy111 t1_jcod8ot wrote
To test how malleable an undereducated public is to propaganda -the polling
To prevent or contain it happening again -the objective
RickDick-246 t1_jcff5sk wrote
To me it doesn’t make a difference. 1. I’m fairly left leaning and always likely was created in a lab. At the same time, countries are doing this type of research all the time and it could have been anyone who fucked up. And 2. Chinas mismanagement of Covid has been horrific no matter how it started. Potentially covering up the issue and then their 0 Covid policy was horrible for their citizens.
We all know the CCP is a dictatorship that treats their citizens like shit, allows genocide and spies on their own people. Whether or not Covid was created in a lab is a very small reason I look at chinas government as a bunch of douches.
mynameismy111 t1_jcofdt2 wrote
No, not a lab, it's been a threat and concern for decades cause it happened before
SARS was initially present in an as-yet unknown animal reservoir, perhaps bats, and was passed to civet cats, relatives of the mongoose. Evidence shows that as it circulated in the civet cats, it gained mutations that allowed it to cross over into humans in 2002-03. More than 8,000 people worldwide became sick with SARS and 774 died.
neurodiverseotter t1_jcg0pxz wrote
It's a question of ideology
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There is a link between a rise in pandemic events and global warming. "Proving" it was a lab accident can be used as an argument that global warming had nothing to do with it (and of course, doesn't exist at all)
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Blame: blaming a specific country could mean one could try to hold them liable for damages or at least set them in a bad diplomatic position. Plus when it's "man-made", it's easy to associate it with disliked people, like Fauci in the US pretending it was their personal fault. Holding individuals or institutions accountable/blaming them can also be a way to cope with loss.
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Shifting the narrative: after millions had died, the narrative that COVID wasn't dangerous couldn't be used any longer. By claiming OT was lab-grown, there was a new story, a new scandal that would overshadow the fact that a lot of politicians, including the POTUS did not act and people can pretend they either never underestimated it or they did so because "a natural virus wouldn't be that bad". These narratives don't necessarily have to be for the public but for some just for their own conscience.
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Theodicée: might be a bit abstract, but especially conservative americans are in the majority protestantic Christians believing in providence, i.e. that god makes all things natural come to pass. Meaning that a global pandemic would be gods will, meaning that the millions of americans who died would have been according to gods plan, maybe even as a punishment Not unlike the Great Plague in Europe was seen. A lab-grown virus produced by non-christians would be something god had no hand in, and it being "man made", would be a way out of the cognitive dissonance of god being good yet allowing bad things to happen to his devout followers.
Tl, dr: mostly it matters to blame others or explain how it could happen, also, of course as a political talking point.
st4n13l t1_jcfcf0q wrote
Considering 21% of US adults also believe in Santa Claus, I wouldn't take our opinions for much lol
Square_Tea4916 OP t1_jcfdpm6 wrote
These opinions also shape politics, markets, and societal norms. Kinda nutty, innit?
st4n13l t1_jcfef3h wrote
Nutty is a good word. I'd also call it scary haha.
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfhe2v wrote
What else would shape that stuff? The magic conch?
Square_Tea4916 OP t1_jcfpkqc wrote
Used to be Kings and Queens, my dear.
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfqfdo wrote
Used to be pharaohs, sultans, emperors, patriarchs, judges and others as well
Square_Tea4916 OP t1_jcfsa8h wrote
Alex Jones and the Six as well
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcg6kn4 wrote
Are any of those actually more important than Obama tho?
Square_Tea4916 OP t1_jcg78jp wrote
I’ll give you $10 if you can find a photo of a pregnant Michelle Obama
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcge8pw wrote
does ai art count?
[deleted] t1_jchix2b wrote
Considering you believe 21% of Americans actually believe in Santa Claus rather than probably fucking with a survey puts you in whatever group you think those people are.
[deleted] t1_jchkchl wrote
Yeah exactly. It’s a Poll. People fuck with polls and if you took a even a highschool stats class you know polls are not good representation
st4n13l t1_jchurzv wrote
And the data presented here is about as reliable...kind of the point of my original comment. Guess I should've added the /s to my comment for the dense Redditors.
[deleted] t1_jchvzg8 wrote
Look at my name I’m kinda reactionary but that’s because a lot of redditors are ironic. I guess tho people are less likely to fuck with this poll versus one that’s like believing in Santa claus
[deleted] t1_jcfdslu wrote
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SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfe3y1 wrote
Most prestigious institutions agree that a lab leak in China was most likely the cause.
Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcfihgt wrote
That’s not true. Just as many institutions believe it was natural, and none of them are especially confident in there conclusions. The more scientific leaning seem to think natural, whereas intel believes lab leak - not sure what is more prestigious.
AdventureBum t1_jd8yca4 wrote
What if it was a natural virus they were studying in a lab that accidentally got out?
SeaworthinessOk620 t1_jcfjrl5 wrote
What institutions support the natural idea?
Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcflc9y wrote
From Director of National Intelligence:
Four IC elements and the National Intelligence Council assess with low confidence that the initial SARS-CoV-2 infection was most likely caused by natural exposure to an animal infected with it or a close progenitor virus—a virus that probably would be more than 99 percent similar to SARS-CoV-2. These analysts give weight to China’s officials’ lack of foreknowledge, the numerous vectors for natural exposure, and other factors.
One IC element assesses with moderate confidence that the first human infection with SARS-CoV-2 most likely was the result of a laboratory-associated incident, probably involving experimentation, animal handling, or sampling by the Wuhan Institute of Virology. These analysts give weight to the inherently risky nature of work on coronaviruses.
Analysts at three IC elements remain unable to coalesce around either explanation without additional information, with some analysts favoring natural origin, others a laboratory origin, and some seeing the hypotheses as equally likely.
Variations in analytic views largely stem from differences in how agencies weigh intelligence reporting and scientific publications, and intelligence and scientific gaps.
SeaworthinessOk620 t1_jcfmwcu wrote
Interesting, can you provide a link? I would like to read more in the source of that info
Fluorescent_Tip t1_jcfnms1 wrote
They’re not saying much more:
[deleted] t1_jcgsv6d wrote
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notmyfault t1_jcfht90 wrote
What do you consider a "prestigious institution"?
SafeExpress3210 t1_jcfk9xg wrote
CIA, FBI, Committee on oversight and accountability
ignigenaquintus t1_jcfi3qk wrote
The committee on oversight and accountability may be one.
“Dr. Robert Redfield, former director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), testified how science indicates COVID-19 infections were likely the result of an accidental lab leak in Wuhan. His conclusion is based on the biology of the virus itself and unusual actions in and around Wuhan in 2019, including gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV).
Nicholas Wade—the former science and health editor at the New York Times, and former editor of Science and Nature—testified how Drs. Fauci and Collins used unverified data to dismiss the lab leak theory in favor of natural transmission.
Jamie Metzl testified how China’s government destroyed samples, hid records, imprisoned Chinese journalists, prevented Chinese scientists from saying or writing anything on pandemic origins without prior government approval, actively spread misinformation, and prevented an evidence-based investigation.
The mainstream media downplayed—and even denied—the scientific theory that COVID-19 emerged from the WIV.
Nicholas Wade testified about the campaign to discredit the lab leak theory. He pointed out that scientists kept in line with the natural origin camp led by Drs. Fauci and Collins because of their dependence on government grants and that the media failed to challenge the forced narrative.
All witnesses agreed that the possibility of COVID-19 originating from a lab is not a conspiracy theory.”
mynameismy111 t1_jcof25s wrote
No
SARS was initially present in an as-yet unknown animal reservoir, perhaps bats, and was passed to civet cats, relatives of the mongoose. Evidence shows that as it circulated in the civet cats, it gained mutations that allowed it to cross over into humans in 2002-03. More than 8,000 people worldwide became sick with SARS and 774 died.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715
Apparently virus jumping from species to species isn't taught
Considering it already happened in 03 with SARS and most Americans don't know
Fizban24 t1_jcfrohc wrote
I feel like after the fact people are rewriting history on this. What I saw people speaking out against early on was when people with no scientific background would go out and declare this was definitely a leak from the wuhan lab and you’re just a sheep if you believe otherwise. The fact that after a couple years of research agencies are starting to come out and say the lab leak was the most likely cause does not change the fact that trying to claim you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it came from a lab leak back in 2020 was an absurd stance to take. What the scientists at the time were largely saying was they thought a lab leak was unlikely, but they were investigating all potential causes. Well, they researched it and as they collected data they released conclusions based on that data, some of which lean towards the lab leak theory. That’s how the process is supposed to go, and that’s why people that came out and said right away “this came from a lab in China” were rightly denounced.
mynameismy111 t1_jcofp5q wrote
2003
What happened?
Coronavirus
19?
No
SARs
No
SARS was initially present in an as-yet unknown animal reservoir, perhaps bats, and was passed to civet cats, relatives of the mongoose. Evidence shows that as it circulated in the civet cats, it gained mutations that allowed it to cross over into humans in 2002-03. More than 8,000 people worldwide became sick with SARS and 774 died.
[deleted] t1_jcfw9a2 wrote
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JigglyWiener t1_jch134x wrote
Broken clocks who will now spend the rest of their lives convinced that their own interpretation of "common sense" is relevant in the face of a complex issue with limited evidence.
Instead of waiting for evidence, they picked the solution that put accessible scapegoats in their hometowns. That turned into actual violence and vandalism.
It was not based in rationality or a desire for truth, it was based in a desire to find a simple explanation that agreed with their biases and allowed them to feel like they had control over something they did not.
mynameismy111 t1_jcofk04 wrote
"Low confidence"
Low
So............
For those not watching the news in 03 coronavirus jumping species into humans and killing contagiously already happened before
SARS was initially present in an as-yet unknown animal reservoir, perhaps bats, and was passed to civet cats, relatives of the mongoose. Evidence shows that as it circulated in the civet cats, it gained mutations that allowed it to cross over into humans in 2002-03. More than 8,000 people worldwide became sick with SARS and 774 died.
JigglyWiener t1_jcs69yu wrote
Yup. I remember that. It’s happened before, and it will 100% happen again. We just got fucked because of the lack of symptoms for a few days. It really tested the individual’s capacity to sacrifice normal activity because they feel fine right now. It turned out a whole bunch of people I thought were decent folks were only decent until they were inconvenienced.
Sad-Efficiency-7492 t1_jcjsy2b wrote
Just admit you were wrong and move on dude , the cope is strong.
hengkaki t1_jcfdhuy wrote
YouGov should present its findings to show there is no conclusive evidence. Who are your experts btw?
[deleted] t1_jcfdlga wrote
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mynameismy111 t1_jcod2w6 wrote
We know where it came from to exactly the stall it began at
Square_Tea4916 OP t1_jcfc33e wrote
Source: YouGov
Tool: Google Charts
Bound to get a bunch of downvotes, but here we go:
>There are a few reasons why more Americans may be believing that COVID-19 originated from a lab in China. One of the main reasons is the increasing amount of information and speculation about the origins of the virus that has been circulating in the media and online.
>
>In the early days of the pandemic, the prevailing theory was that the virus originated from a wet market in Wuhan, China, where live animals were sold for consumption. However, as more information has come to light, some experts and media outlets have suggested that the virus may have actually originated from a laboratory in Wuhan that was studying coronaviruses.
>
>Additionally, there have been reports of suspicious activity at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, including the possible release of the virus from the lab. This has fueled speculation and conspiracy theories about the lab being the true source of the pandemic.
>
>Furthermore, the pandemic has been heavily politicized in the United States, with tensions between the US and China already high before the outbreak of the virus. This political climate may have also influenced people's beliefs about the origins of the virus.
>
>However, there is still no conclusive evidence to support the theory that the virus originated from a lab in China, and many experts continue to believe that the wet market theory is the most likely explanation.
[deleted] t1_jcfwejl wrote
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earl_of_yourgirl t1_jcgc41f wrote
Is this the best way to visualize this information? All those data labels make it seem really cluttered (i’m trying to learn so please don’t be rude)
BarnOwl-9024 t1_jcgc6yn wrote
Washington, D.C. – House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Michael McCaul released the following statement in response to the Department of Energy (DOE) assessment that concludes the COVID-19 pandemic was most likely caused by a lab leak in China. Their report reiterates the same finding in Chairman McCaul’s report from August 2021, which found a preponderance of the evidence proved the virus was leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
wawanaq t1_jciqduj wrote
The word “originated” is misleading. Does it imply 1) the virus is man-made from the lab, 2) naturally occurring but first detected from the lab or 3) intentionally leaked from the lab. If you believe in either of the options, you could easily say yes to this question. The probability of you believing in one of the 3 options is higher than the probability of you believing in none. So the poll would be somewhat biased towards “yes”, no?
nundlaj t1_jcj2xye wrote
The important thing is how the US behaved during the Covid outbreak, they killed more people, made more enemies, destroyed people who were poor and suffering and tried to blame it on everyone else. They've irreversibly damaged their relationship with who they could have made new allies with. The WHO was actually disabled by the US, now ask yourself who your real enemy is... POWER, MONEY and WEALTH for the US is Paramount not the safety and security of the world?
Available_Ad4135 t1_jcqhp5e wrote
Does it matter? We know we can’t trust China anyway. They suffered worse than any other country, so obviously it wasn’t planned. It’s not like there is much to learn here. I also didn’t get why this question was the focus during the pandemic. You don’t debate how the fire started until the flames have been put out.
FoundationCreepy9721 t1_jcurlgc wrote
Funny thing is investigation is being blocked at a international level
DearSurround8 t1_jcffbl8 wrote
Here's the rub. If it were a true spillover event, the evidence would be EVERYWHERE. There would be so much worldwide evidence of a spillover that we wouldn't have even considered a lab leak scenario. In the absence of spillover evidence there are essentially two options 1) Wuhan was the epicenter of an extremely unlikely random combination of viruses leading to a pandemic capable SARS-CoV-2, or it somehow leaked from that lab. If I were a betting man, my money is on an accidental leak.
Origin aside, the CCP stopped all domestic flights from Wuhan weeks before they stopped all international flights. They knew about it and intentionally spread it to the rest of the world through that deliberate choice.
Bubbagumpredditor t1_jcfk3bz wrote
Sooo many [citations needed]
[deleted] t1_jcofu6n wrote
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DearSurround8 t1_jcfl53g wrote
That's the problem, isn't it? There are no citations for what happened inside of China during the early pandemic. From what we know about epidemiology and spillover events, there simply isn't much evidence to point to said spillover. In the absence of evidence, people will look toward other possibilities and assess the likelihood of those possibilities. In this case, given the lack of evidence, this does not look like a spillover, and the next likely option is a lab leak.
mukenwalla t1_jch0lrp wrote
I wouldn't say "extremely unlikely random combination of viruses leading to a pandemic" considering that is exactly what happened a few years prior with the SARS-CoV-1 virus. And we have evidence of it being a spill over event based on early cases surrounding the markets of Wuhan. The truth is we don't know right now what the origin was.
DearSurround8 t1_jchdc19 wrote
The evidence of the SARS-CoV-1 spillover is still around. You can still find the precursor virus in specific bat populations. There is also an evidence trail for the spillover of MERS. The same type of evidence trail does not exist for SARS-CoV-2. We do not know the original host animal. We still have not found the precursor virus(s).
I know that the absence of evidence does not prove anything, but in this case the absence of evidence is conspicuous. Either it wasn't a spillover event, or our entire understanding of spillover events is incorrect. Occam's razor applies here. We have hunted extensively for the origins SARS-CoV-2, in every way allowed by the Chinese government, and still have not found conclusive evidence of a spillover. I find the lab leak hypothesis to be far more plausible than a complete misunderstanding of how spillover events work in the 21st century.
mukenwalla t1_jchhb3w wrote
You're not wrong. I hope we get more information about this. The lack of a transparent investigation means wemay never have a full picture.
mynameismy111 t1_jcog61g wrote
Unlikely
Guess how many virus interact and spread every day in a wet market
One, dozens, millions?
Trillions?
About 10 to the 10-30 range
Combination of viruses? No, how did the variants since alpha form? Delta, omicron, Oh wait lab leak, got us there
bokilala t1_jcfifys wrote
That's the only "conspiracy theory" that I think is the most likely explanation. Fuck WHO and fuck CCP.
mynameismy111 t1_jcofsxj wrote
What bout every variant since 19?
And before?
2003, what pathogen killed and spread then?
Guess
sixtysins t1_jcg9j5s wrote
sample size is too small to make this claim
Cannacrohn t1_jcgeove wrote
I thought that from day one. First seen in a city with a coronavirus lab and the virus acts strangely as if it was a half finished bio weapon. Doesn’t really change anything tho.
Puzzled_Anxiety1667 t1_jcgetm3 wrote
Well, they cant even control school shooting, not very smart country
MeanGreanHare t1_jcmy51c wrote
Hey OP. How much is Winnie the Pooh paying you?
Coronavirus is a new form of SARS, which was big news from Asia 20 years ago. Wuhan lab of virology is near what was determined to be ground zero for the virus. There was news about the virus starting to spread in China back in 2019.
Conclusive? Perhaps not. Highly suspicious even to the layman? Absolutely.
Q8DD33C7J8 t1_jcffbpt wrote
More Americans don't even think about covid anymore nor give a shit about where it came from. We go on with our lives a year ago and loved the fuck on.
[deleted] t1_jcfn7gy wrote
[deleted]
ryansdayoff t1_jcflcvo wrote
Its a pretty good coincidence that "the Wuhan coronavirus institute" that has a ton of safety violations and bad practices wasn't involved in a worldwide pandemic involving a novel coronavirus