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Veterinary technician here. Short answer: No they do not. Long answer. When a cow gets a calf she produces milk. The more they milk her the longer she sill produce milk as her body thinks its feeding a calf. The production of milk slowly reduces over time and farms need to calculate this in order to be profitable. Once it is not profitable anymore they stop and wait until she recovers and is ready for another calf.

No they don't. Milk cows have to regularly calve to continue giving milk.

And the thing is, those calves, if they aren't female and can be used for milk cows, will eventually be slaughtered for meat. Which is why many vegans consider cow milk to be as bad as eating cow meat itself.

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They take dairy calves away from the mothers and bottle-feed them (or sell them for veal). The milking makes her body think the calf is nursing, a lot, and so she keeps producing milk steadily, usually for about a year. Then she has to have another calf to keep the milk supply going.

If you have a small homestead and don't need a lot of milk from your cow, you can let her keep her calf and still milk her, and that will be enough milk for most homesteaders. But it's not profitable for large dairies.

If you saw the calves with their mothers, those are likely beef calves. They used to remove the calves at a certain age to force weaning, so the mother could back get in shape for her next pregnancy, but trial and error showed that caused more losses than it prevented so most beef calves stay in the pasture with their mother until they're old enough to go to a feedlot.

Like people, cows only lactate when they have babies. The cows are artificially inseminated, typically by locking them in a cage and jabbing them in the cervix with a metal rod while the farmer’s arm is inserted into the cow’s rectum.

When the cow gives birth, the farmer takes away her calf to prevent it from drinking the milk.

What are the calves fef if they are meant to grow to adulthood size for meat?

Formula and/or food pellets.

Hmm, wouldn't have thought formula would be cheaper than the milk :(

How many Milk cycles can we get in an average cow life and what's the pregnancy duration?

They're fed formula, or they're slaughtered and sold as veal.

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You can grow soybeans for a nutrient-rich milk and the soybeans turn the sunlight into food a lot more efficiently than the cows turn plants into food.

Fun fact, there's a dairy industry, there's a veal industry. Until we figure out how to produce only female calves. And you butcher them young because the beef isn't very good from adult dairy cows.

It'd be nice if there was a brand of high welfare veal.

> And you butcher them young because the beef isn't very good from adult dairy cows.

Dairy breeds are used as beef cattle too. The meat is just as good if they're slaughtered at 18 months like usual. It's just that many retired dairy cows are 10+ years old so their meat is tough.

But it's easier to sell male dairy calves to be veal than to bottle-feed them long enough to go on pasture.

You're right - the only animals that produce milk are mothers. But generally, in mass producing dairy farms, the cows don't get pregnant naturally. The mothers get artificially inseminated, get pregnant, give birth to their young, the young are stolen from her and reared for beef or dairy or killed if no use, leaving her in a continual state of distress and grief, usually chained to bars and pumped for milk before the artificial insemination process starts again so she can produce more milk. The reason for the abundance of dairy products is because of this wide-scale non-surrendering abuse. Dairy farmers on a smaller scale may proclaim she's in a more habitable environment and any other line to make you feel it's more ethical, but the cows mostly all end up the same way... and in any case, 100% of the produce you get from shops and supermarkets that you refer to are attained from the mass-producing dairy farms. If you want further information "Earthling Ed" is a great educator on YouTube.

I am from India and always have between cows and buffaloes. Remember, my description of dairy will be different from Industrial dairy.

So, we used to have 4 to 5 cows. Whenever a cow gives birth, we will always feed the baby first. New born babies get almost half of milk and rest will be used by family. As the calf gets older like 3 months, the milk consumption decreases and he will eat food such as grass and feed.

after some time they grow old enough to completely feed off the grass. this is when family can use all the milk. Cow will keep giving milk up until 2 years on average and they may become pregnant. However, the quantity will keep decreasing overtime and fat percentage will increase.

Cows start the milk process for the first time when they give birth.

Funny enough cows pregnancy last for about 9 months. Followed by aboht 10 months to a year kf milking period and then the dry period. How many cycles deoends on how healthy the cow is but they should last for about 10 years before they are too old.

Today’s dairy cows produce much more milk, per day, than is physically consumable by calves. Some farms use their own milk to feed calves and the excess is sent to processing for fluid milk, cheese and yogurt, other farms will use milk replacement powder and send all their milk for processing (reasons may be for a more consistent, nutritional product for the calves or due to lack of storage space for fluid milk). Cows only produce milk after having a calf. Cows who are in the 2nd or greater lactation have what is called a dry period which is typically 60 days prior to their due date where they are not milked. A lactation typically lasts 305 days, however, may be longer or shorter depending on health events, timing of breeding, etc. Most calves, in the dairy industry, have milk in their diet for the first 7-9 weeks of age (USA statistic-Penn State Extension) before transitioning to solid feeds to aid in proper rumen development. Hope this helps answer your questions!

Edit to add for credibility: I’ve worked in the dairy industry for 8+ years and have a BSc Animal Science (dairy focused dissertation) and am currently finishing a MSc Ruminant Nutrition.

Why do cows produce more milk than their calves could drink? Also, how could it be better for the calves to drink milk replacer rather than just drink the milk that was made for them by their mother?

Over the years, advances in genetics and nutrition have increased the production potential of dairy cows. We have done the same with all agricultural species and their respective products to make more product, more efficiently to keep up with demand. Milk replacer is made with standard nutrient values, so when it’s mixed to a fluid you know exactly how much protein, fat and vitamins are being given to calves. With milk coming off farm, you can’t guarantee each litre has the same values as there is greater variation. Some cows produce milk with more protein, some produce more fat and when it’s pooled together to be fed it’s harder to ascertain if the calves needs are being met or are in excess. Additionally, if calves are getting a higher protein milk one day or feeding and then a lower protein milk the next it can result in some serious digestive upsets that could be avoided when kept on a product with stable values.

Selective breeding. The cow as you know it, just like every farm animal, never existed in the wild. The caw was slowly domesticated from the wild Auroch.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs

Making too much milk is just a part of this process. Just like how a sheep will die from growing too much wool if let free.

"high welfare veal" lmao what an oxymoron

That's correct. And that's why animal agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation. Forests are being cleared to grow soy as feed for animals.

To put this in context of how exploitative the dairy industry is, the natural life cycle of a dairy cow is about 20 years.

http://watchdominion.org for more information on this.

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Yeah they only give milk because they are mothers, and unfortunately a lot of horrible stuff happens in dairy production to both the mothers and the babies.
I highly recommend this documentary narrated by Joaquim Phoenix starting at 53:04 for a behind the scenes look of dairy.

No kidding. Cog dissonance am I right?

Also isn’t it curious that humans are the only species to drink another species milk? And why not dog milk- or rat milk? Think of the lattes that could come from the subways of NYC ?! :P

For the same reason human mothers can often pump more than their baby needs and donate (or store) the excess. The amount you (or the cow) can produce depends on the age and size of the baby and how much stimulation the breast/udder receives.

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Well yes but also no. Although dairy cows are not mainly used for meat they still end up that way at the end. And you do not want old tough meat. So it is not just because of the industry but also to be profitable

Does "veal" by definition necessitate that the calf is crammed in a box so it cannot use its muscles, or can it in theory include any young calf even if it lived a free and happy life somewhere but just didn't make it past a few months of age?

It's a male dairy calf. The rest of its life and how it's treated is up to the farmer. Why couldn't they have a great life pre butchering?

I was under the opposite impression with the breeds. TIL

why would we butcher someone who has a great life and didn't ask to die (likely die horribly)?

If the calf were sick and didn't make it then why would we be eating it's flesh? Why would we kill someone who is living a happy life and didn't ask to die?

so yes but also yes

Look. I'm not here to argue all of the merits and issues with eating any meat in any situation. Pretty far off topic.

Given that beef cows are butchered at ~18 months old I'm not convinced there's much of a distinction between the ethics of veal versus beef.

Well...no. Your conclusion was correct but your assertion was incorrect

So shocking to me there is a while industry for veal. I don't think I've ever met anyone that had a response to veal that wasn't something along the lines of wanting to get the place that serves it shut down.

>Until we figure out how to produce only female calves.

We have figured it out. We can sort sperm into X- and Y-sperm with a reliability >90%. It's actively being used in dairy production. However, the female calves are still usually slaughtered as there's no demand for an exponentially growing number of dairy cows; as far as I could gather, the benefit for a dairy production is mainly in that birthing a male calf is more dangerous for the cow.

The only way for the dairy industry to operate is through exploitation. I find that as companies try to increase profits the level of exploitation also increases. Am I missing something?

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That's really interesting considering the veal, beef, and dairy industry are all pretty much the same thing. These people you've encountered that are so concerned about veal - are they vegans?

People enjoy eating meat, and at the moment that means that an animal needs to die for that to happen. That said, it would be preferable to have the animal be treated humanely during its life.

You didn't outright say it but a lot of people would read your comment as having only two options. The first is treating an animal cruelly and then eating them and the second is giving the animal a better life and then eating them. And we have to keep in mind that it doesn't matter what farm the animal grew up on they are all likely going to a similar slaughterhouse. Although people like eating meat a lot of them don't realize what truly goes on in the animal agricultural industry. And they don't realize there's actually a third option - not eating any animal products at all. I think if more people knew how animal agriculture works and realized that abstaining from animal products is an option then more people would not eat meat at all.

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I do know many vegans, but no, not all. The conversation never seems to reach back to the farms that produce the veal. That's besides the point though, I mostly just meant to point out how it seems like there is no one that actually wants the veal.

shit what dairy cows are using 10+ year old cows

Most bigger farms Ive been to they are lucky to be past 6

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>Also isn’t it curious that humans are the only species to drink another species milk?

It's not that surprising. If you want to drink another species' milk, you have to be able to domesticate that animal. Sure, you get ants doing something vaguely similar with aphids, but when talking about mammals no other species has the capability to manage it, so they just don't have the option. At least, unless they have humans around to provide it for them. If you had a dozen intelligent mammals with civilizations similar to humans, I bet many of them would be milk drinkers. It's incredibly useful if you are a pastoralist, since it means you can get calories out of your cattle or goats without having to kill them. Useful enough that the descendants of most pastoralists still bear the genetic stamp of heavy selection in favor of milk drinking (aka, lactose tolerance into adulthood).

> And why not dog milk- or rat milk?

Obviously you are joking, but it's all about diet and volume. The whole point of dairy, from a premodern perspective, is turning grass into useful calories. Dogs don't produce a lot of milk and you can't graze them, while rats are far too small to produce usable volumes of milk.

That said, Simpsons did it

Howdy all, I just want to throw my hat in the ring here. I milked cows and lived in a dairy barn for 4 years. It’s hard work. And I respect the hell out of all our cows for working hard too. To answer your questions from personal and professional experience.

1. There are many different breeds of cattle, like dogs. Some are better for certain purposes. For cows that produce milk the most common is a Holstein (Typical black and white moo moo).

2. Humans have been milking cows since the very beginning of our agricultural days. Thousands of years. Over this long period of time we’ve bred cattle to produce more and more milk. During the 1900s farmers started to selectively breed cows that could produce more milk. Much more milk than a baby calf could ever hope to drink.

3. Yes we do take away the babies from their mothers, and I’ll address this at a later point. But this is done for a variety of reasons. Most certainly NOT to simply “Get more milk”. Here are some benefits to removing a calf from her mother.

Not all cows are good mothers. I’ve seen some immediately forget their babies and move straight to a food bin. Never to give a second thought. I’ve seen some babes get their heads stomped in by their moms. We take them away not only for their own safety, but also so we can give them a STANDARD of care. This includes vaccines, colostrum, warmth and blankets, and a soft bed. These are just a few benefits.

4. The boys are shipped to veal farms and that is their purpose. I understand the ethical implications, but simply there is no demand for male dairy cattle. Their meat quality is poor and we don’t need many of them for breeding purposes.

5. We keep the girls and raise them to be a part of the farm. They are fed different things depending on what kind of farm you run. Some are fed milk from the cows in the farm. Some are fed a formula. This is once again to provide a STANDARD of care. Some cows individual milk is not good for their babies, can carry immune disorders and other factors. We don’t let them nurse off the mother for a variety of reasons.

Their mouths are gross. And can easily infect mom.

Mom is much more comfortable being milked by a machine.

Letting them nurse off their own mothers will inadvertently bring down overall production. Dairy farms are a business.

6. Cows do not forever produce milk. Much like people they will “Dry off” if there is no demand for it. Milk corresponds with pregnancy, birth and raising young. A typical cow will produce milk for 250-300 days before being given a break. This is then followed by a 2-3 month dry period where they are allowed to eat, relax and prepare for birth all over again.

Just to clarify. I love cows. They fascinate me and I hold a deep respect for them. They work so hard and I know many dairy farmers who break their backs treating their girls better than themselves. Healthy happy cows produce more milk. Stress itself drops milk production like a rock and good farmers are always trying to minimize that. Bad farmers don’t stay in business long.

There are ethical concerns to this industry, like I’ve mentioned. Unlike cows it’s not black and white. It’s very grey. I’d love to keep talking about it and I can keep answering questions if people have them.

Thats just not true. Dairy cow meat is good too.

https://youtu.be/w7z_qeQRmKQ

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It's like starting a debate over which is better, Mercedes or Porsche... Then in response to an opinion, insisting cars should be outlawed in favor of bicycles only. It's just a different, if superficially related, subject.

They aren't grown to adulthood usually. Some are slaughtered right away to make Bob veal, some are formula fed to make white veal, some are gain fed to make red veal, some are intermediate or pink veal.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veal

The milk industry and the main beef industry are mostly kept separate and are different breeds. Though, old cow are sold as cheap beef once they are done.

Man, Ty! I absolutely loved that video. Now I'm team rebrand all dairy cows as good meat all the way.

I'm here from the Vegetable Defense League, you lentil gobbling kingdomist. Those legumes want to live!

If you check out NFACC guidelines, atleast in North America, the “lack of space” housing such as crates has been completely phased out. All veal farms I’ve visited (Canadian) group house calves in large pens and provide both natural and artificial lighting and enrichment such a toys and brushes.

Assuming the consumer didn’t care at all, would it be possible to treat cows with hormones to keep them going without having to make a baby?

Man, nobody here with the answers.

Selective breeding for the last 10k years.

A heifer is an unbred female cow. Heifers do not produce milk. A dairy heifer is going to be a cow of a dairy breed, Jersey, Gurnsey, Holstein, there's a lot. Beef heifers are never the same breed as a dairy heifer even though they're functionally the same at that life stage.

Once a cow is bred it'll go in one of two directions. The beef cows only produce enough milk for their calves but all mammals produce milk with a supply/demand method (generally). The more milk a calf drinks, the more milk a cow produces. So until weaning begins supply slowly increases with the calf's appetite. For some things you might be able to get some excess milk even from a beef cow but nowhere near the quantities you get from a dairy cow.

When dairy cows have their calf they do generally get promptly removed from momma. But momma is still useless for milking at this point. She's not producing milk. She's producing colostrum. Colostrum is discarded by some farmers, milked and fed to the calf by other farmers. Either way it has to be milked from the cow. Milk production starts quickly, though, as colostrum is only ever at temporary thing. The calf is always removed because cows are on the farm to work and where a beef cow's job is to make meat (which they can do by making more cows) a dairy cow's job is to produce milk.

A dairy cow that has already had at least one calf and is due to have another will actually go dry shortly before she has the calf. Her glands are switching back to colostrum mode.

Dairy cows produce so much milk that their udders are gigantic compared to a beef cow's, even when both are lactating. They produce so much more milk than any single calf could ever drink. They also don't necessarily produce the sort of milk a farmer wants to feed to the calves. Calves drink fortified reconstituted milk (made from dried milk that's had a blend of nutrients added).

The reason why a cow's milk and their calf's needs don't necessarily line up is because of the selective breeding bit. We want cow's milk to taste a certain way. But we also want calves to get a certain sort of nutrition. The nutritional needs of a calf, particularly one you're raising for a specific purpose, is not going to give you the stereotypical flavor of milk, cheese, and yogurt you get in the store.

You take away the human element and yes, a dairy cow and calf could easily stay together and we'd still have plenty of milk. But there's no profit in producing milk. Farmers make pennies per gallon so in order to stay solvent they have to maximize production and quality. So the only time you're going to see a farm where they can keep the calves with dairy cow mommas is a farm that likely packs and sells the product themselves rather than selling it to a factory or brand.

Sauce: I grew up in a farming community for 20 years and visited dozens of mom and pop farms providing cow healthcare and saw the whole industry as seen through the eyes of farmers with less than 10,000 cows.

You do realize that human milking and mastitis risk is dramatically different from cows... The structure of their mammaries is completely different. For one, you can't hand-milk a person the way you can a cow. A cow the milk practically falls out so yes the suction pumps are actually more effective than a calf's sucking.

Hormones are part of it because even machine milking is more effective if the cows can see or have recently fed their calves but in a human? It's almost all hormonal. You can get a couple ounces just by relaxing but you can't even get a full meal for the little sucker without practically meditating on how much you love that little gummy smile.

Humans have not been selectively bred for 10000 years for milk yield. We have, however, evolved our guts to be able to produce lactase enzymes for our entire lives. I struck out though. I produce lactase but my immune system freaks out if it sees whey.

And doing AI for all the breeding... when you could just rent a bull and let him do the work? Or hek, with enough cows you can just provide your own bull and do bull-swaps with a neighboring farm. Why would you pay for something the bull will do for free? Maybe if you're on a tight schedule... but still... a cow's routine healthcare involves sticking your hand up their butts all the time. You're lucky that human healthcare splurges on expensive scanning tools now and that our organs are a lot smaller so palpating things through the intestinal wall isn't very helpful or that's what we'd be getting too.

And just buy milk from a farm that keeps the calves with the mommas. Be the change you want to see in the industry.

They do goats and sheep and some wierdos even horse but cows are just the best at it. It's also weird that they have 4 teats but typically only have one calf. That's not usually how it goes with mammals. Sheep, horses, and... goats? I can't remember if it's the same with goats... but they've all just got two. And goats and sheep are often bred for twinning. So wtf going on with cows and their super mammaries.

Hmm, rBST is used to boost milk production but I don't know if it can be used to bypass the need for pregnancy/birth altogether. It's probably cheaper to just let them have a calf, plus they need female calves to keep the dairy going.

"for us it's harvest day, for the carrots it's the Holocaust"

Right? Redefining food as necessity rather than an indulgence for future generations has got to happen.

People like going into space but don't want to eat space food? The hypocrisy of humans knows no bounds.

Another example: people like luxury boats and are realistic about not being able to afford big ass yatchs. Yet ask them to live in an urban small space and they balk. No, we need single family homes and will fight tooth and nail to preserve our "right" to disallow multi unit housing of any kind.

At this point the mother cow is then put into a device the industry coined a "rape rack" so the farmer can stick his entire arm up her vagina to insert bull sperm into her. After a 9 month pregnancy in confinement she gives birth to baby girls who will be put into the same torturous cycle as her or baby boys who are immediately killed.

Buffalo, goat, and camel milk are all also pretty commonly consumed. Source: I’m severely allergic to cow milk protein but I’m able to enjoy milk products from various other animals.

That is why a lot of their beef is used in dog food, cat food, other pet food, and canned meats like stews. Long simmerring makes it more tender.

I'm not going to argue with you on those points! Just speaking theoretically here. I mean, suppose a healthy baby cow got struck by a fallen tree or died in some other sort of physical accident.