How much better does sound get than what I'm currently using?

Submitted by pstrib t3_115bidh in headphones

Slightly weird question, but how much better would my music sound if I had basically unlimited budget, compared to my current setup:

KZ ZS10 pro IEMs Balanced output cable Fiio BTR5 (plugged into my PC) Amazon Music Hifi

This isn't a purchasing question; I'm very happy with my current setup.

I've never experienced proper audiophile headphones, and probably won't until I start actually making good money.

Am I basically at a point where spending more would grant vastly diminished returns?

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dongas420 t1_j90r2wn wrote

For your first question, I wrote up a short test designed to make relative comparisons of headphones/IEMs as simple as possible, based on my own testing process derived from my listening experiences with a variety of gear. The BTR5 should be transparent with the ZS10, meaning it shouldn't audibly alter how the music sounds, and the difference between Amazon Music's V0 variable-bitrate MP3 and lossless FLAC isn't something I'd worry about unless you're an extreme stickler who can't live without flawless cymbal timbre at all times.

For your second, I'd say diminishing returns start hitting very hard at $250 for IEMs (Moondrop B2: Dusk) and $500 for headphones (Hifiman Edition XS, used Focal Elex, etc.). That said, chi-fi is still spiraling down in a pricing race to the bottom, which will probably keep on raising the quality-to-price ratio in the future.

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thatcarolguy t1_j912l2i wrote

The diminishing returns now start with Quarks DSP lol.

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[deleted] t1_j90q0on wrote

About 27 maybe 28,9. Some would argue 30 but I think thats a bit optimistic.

You cannot quantify audio quality, mate :)

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pstrib OP t1_j90qpto wrote

I know that but like, these are obviously leagues better than £2 headphones from the grocery store that I used to get.

Would the world's best headphones (subjective, I know), with the best amp, sound leagues better than my current setup, or am I basically 90% there and would need to spend £1000s more to get to only get marginal improvements?

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toastyhoodie t1_j9142fu wrote

Would a $50 IEM be 90% there?

No. Not even close.

There are different styles, like open back vs closed back. Different tunings. Different materials. Etc.

Do you need to spend 1000’s more? No. But you have a very V shaped tuned IEM that doesn’t have much in the way of technicalities. Other headphones will be tuned differently and will sound different.

A Sennheiser HE-1 which is considered the “worlds best headphone”, is going to be miles better. (It’s $50,000 though). You don’t need that though.

You’ll notice significant differences with something as simple as an open back. You can get into one of those for less than $100.

Ultimately you have a starting point. But yes, it does improve from there.

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Milolo2 t1_j913106 wrote

you are not even close lol. a $200 iem upgrade will probably be night and day from the kz zs10 pro, maybe even with the $80 hexa, or a $20 waner, let alone an end game iem or headphone.

for example, crinacle rates the zs10 pro as a C tier iem, whilst rating the Moondrop Chu as a B tier iem and the Letshuoer S12 as a B+. the difference between the Chu and S12 makes the Chu sound low fidelity, granted however, i believe the chu is overrated and should probably be closer to C+ in the current market. The Variations is another iem i have spent quite some time with, and with crinacle rating it an A+, it is again night and day compared to the s12 in sound quality. the disparity between the chu - s12 - variations is pretty sizeable imo, with each sounding leagues better than the other, ie chu is 4/10, s12 is 7/10 and variations is 9/10, and i know you cant really quantify audio but variations certainly sounds more than twice as good as chu. so, with you on the zs10 pro, an end game level iem or headphone will definitely be quite the sizeable upgrade, probably the same level if difference between a $2 supermarket earbud and ur zs10 pros in the first place. i think diminishing returns only truly begin after like the variations, where id be surprised if you can squeeze much of a difference, though i havent tried anything more pricey than it.

if i were you, id really recommend getting a budget fi option like the tangzu waner, it is probably a sizeable upgrade from the zs10 pro, if crins ratings are to be referenced.

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CBSU t1_j90pyl3 wrote

I’m not acquainted with your particular setup but it sounds audiophile enough to me. Audiophile is a term with variable meaning, but in my eyes, having an external amp for headphones signifies far more -phile for audio than the vast majority of people.

Does it get better from here? Sure. If you haven’t actually heard better though, I might suggest leaving it at this. You could add an extra pair with a different sound signature so your brain does not “get used” to your setup, though I find that some car speakers alone will do that.

I can be reasonably considered to be on the deep end of the headphone pool, and I would never have done so if I didn’t already have a nice speaker setup at the time. And to this day I cannot tell if I came out better for it, in terms of enjoyment of sound quality— my headphones see <10 hours of use a week, and I often have to manufacture reasons to use them. So if you’re not looking for the hobby aspect of it (which can be very interesting, sampling gear is a good use of time), perhaps avoid the so-called rabbit hole.

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Rogue-Architect t1_j92tz7e wrote

For some context to OP I disagree with this comment.

I do agree that your current setup is audiophile, as for me audiophile is just getting the best audio quality for your budget.

I guess where I am confused is everything past there. If you already have a decent speaker setup that is your preferred listening method, why deep dive in the headphone hobby? For me personally, speakers are just not a viable option at this point between too close of neighbors and respecting the rest of my house (making some noise would be fine but I can’t turn it up too much). I also think that diminishing returns is a thing and that even compared to what they have things aren’t going to be 2x, 5x or even compared to an LCD-5 90x better. However, as you noted things do get better and for me, while they may be smaller differences, those differences are what allow me to teleport and completely lose myself versus just listening to music with good tonal balance.

It really just sounds like you are a speaker person and it is clouding what your comments are supposed to mean. Do you just feel that a speaker setup is just that much better?

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71M07HYD t1_j91bjnp wrote

Like one other comment mentioned. Audio can not be quantified or described well enough just by words alone. You need to experience it for yourself, go to places that allow you to demo equipment that suits your needs.

We listen to sound differently, and it's best to see and test what's best for you. But as a starting point, I'd upgrade your IEMs to something better. I've only used the Moondrop Starfields and the Blesskng 2 Dusks with a balanced 4.4mm cable out of my Fiio M11 Plus ESS, so I'm not really the best person to ask for recommendations, which is why I suggest you try some stuff out for yourself

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notlofty t1_j91cp62 wrote

Comparing the Starfield to the Blessing 2 Dusks, would you say the B2D are twice as good or more? Or that the Starfield are 80/90% of the way there?

I have the Chu and the B2D and I would say they are only a percentage better not multiples better.

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71M07HYD t1_j91dqhu wrote

At least, from what I remember. Take it with a grain of salt. It's been a while since I listened to my Starfields, as well as the fact that I'm still relatively new to the audio scene

The Dusks has punchier but cleaner bass compared to the Starfields. Less distortion/mud

The top end is also clearer with the Dusks, instruments at the too end like the cymbals are clearer, less distorted (if at all)

Can't remember much about the mids to compare. Sorry about that.

I would say that the Starfields are about 30-40% of the way to becoming a Dusk. But you have to consider the huge price jump from being a 1DD IEM to a 2BA + DD IEM and the commission that Crinacle is getting from tuning it with the price of a Dusk 2 in itself.

I'll re-listen to my Starfields again to give a better explanation.

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RChamy t1_j92d4l5 wrote

Im testing the Salnotes Zero and they are definitely an improvement from the Chu too!

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mvw2 t1_j929nwa wrote

Bang for the buck for me starts at around $150 and is the $150 to $300 range. You can get a lot of really good stuff in this price range.

However, there are better products at a higher price point. The downside is the price isn't really tied to the cost, so you're buying a lot into brand, marketing, and market expectation. However, this does give manufacturers some luxury to do extra, like better materials and construction, better drivers, better accessories, more accessories, better case, etc. It can also buy some engineering and development time. You may put more effort into a flagship product rather than a midrange or low end product with heavier costing constraints.

My top three IEMs I own are $1000 range IEMs. Are they worlds better than my stuff around the $300 range? Not a ton, no. We're talking 3x the price for 10%-20%, and even that percentage is subjective. However, the stuff I have in the $150-$300 range blows the cheaper junk out of the water. Low end stuff is significantly worse. There are a few decent cheap things, but the level of sound quality and performance is always a quite reasonably jump stepping into the real mid tier stuff. I've been in the IEM hobby for 20 years. The cheapest one I own is $100, an old Vsonic GR7. Virtually everything I own or want to own is in the $200 to $1000 range. Again, it's not really a cost thing. It's just how the market's spread out these days. You're just stuck buying a $15 cost to manufacture thing for $200 because...reasons.

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Slitted t1_j9302oe wrote

> The cheapest one I own is $100, an old Vsonic GR7.

I don't think you're giving the recent years of IEM revolution credit.

All the $20 chi-fi like Chu, Wan'er, Zero have smoked the former $100ish classics like GR07 away.

$75–150 has been eaten up by Moondrop and others too. Shure's SE series and Westone, among others, have been eclipsed by this range.

I liked the $350ish IEM range myself earlier, which was considered just mid-fi earlier but now gets you pretty top-end performance.

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Coalbus t1_j93ld8g wrote

You don’t need TOTL gear to have “the best” sound, for you. Especially if your preferences don’t line up with a predefined frequency target (like Harman). Diminishing returns hits hard around $800 or so, for both headphones and IEMs, but it starts even lower than that. Play around in the budget price bracket, find out what tunings and technical proficiencies you like the most and then if you still got the upgrade itch, now you have a better idea of what to look for in higher end gear. You should also not buy anything that’s so expensive that you’re afraid to use it.

Also, don’t go crazy on amps or DACs right out of the gate. Find what is generally considered “great for the money” and stick with that at least until you’re pretty sure you’re settled in with the headphones/in-ears you have. You can spend a hell of a lot of money on amps and DACs for almost no benefit over something reasonably priced and well liked. The main thing to keep in mind when shopping for this stuff is what kind of tonal shift does it impart. I keep running into amps/DACs that roll off the treble too much making my headphones sound darker than they should. Some like that but I don’t. Maybe you will, maybe you won’t. Won’t know until you try it whether you want a tell-it-like-it-is dead neutral amp or a warm/dark amp or whatever.

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PutPineappleOnPizza t1_j913nhe wrote

For me there's better stuff out there, but this is all preference. KZ's don't fit well for me and I own the ZS10 pro myself. Too sharp in treble for me. I love the Truthear Hexa and it does maybe 80% of what my modded 6XX does on tubes, but with the difference that subbass slams much harder and deeper and that there's much less stage and less natural timbre.

Diminishg returns kick in after 200-250ish $ IEMs I feel like, but I move in the sub 100$ area myself. Still wanna try stuff like the Timeless or blessing 2 one day though. I'm sure especially the technical capabilities excel on the higher end stuff.

Now for headphones it's a little different I feel like because what they excel at varies a lot. Some say the HD6X0 lineup is worse then the HD800 lineup, but I would say that they're on a similar level, despite being different in what they excel at. Many things out there are for different tastes and if you don't value certain capabilities of a pair of headphones then they might be not worth it. I personally do not appreciate a huge soundstage as much as I appreciate natural sounding vocals and instruments, that's why I'm plenty happy with my setup. And if you look at the price difference then it gets quite insane, with the HD800 being so much more expensive than the 6XX.

But then someone else would probably say that I'm missing out on a lot. But for me this is not the case. You see, "endgame" is just where you feel like you're satisfied and the only thing that's left then is the fear of missing out, driven by YouTube reviews, reddit posts and advertisements.

So you can simply stop at any point in time and enjoy your setup. It will rarely happen that you will suddenly hear different things in your favorite songs after spending a certain amount of money on a solid pair of IEMs or headphones. Most stuff you can buy is just great and many things are super affordable for what they offer.

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andysaurus_rex t1_j91pmdz wrote

There is no perfect sound and no perfect headphone. You can't quantify it.

The point where spending more money greatly diminishes returns is when you have zero headphone and then you have your cheapest headphone. Going from no headphone to $1 headphone is the biggest improvement possible and going from $1 headphone to $50 headphone is not nearly as great of a leap. That's why diminishing returns don't really make a whole lot of sense.

If you want to look at it like a graph where you plot audio quality against price, it's going to be a steep steep steep jump from $0 to the dirt cheapest headphones you can buy, and then still fairly steep but growing more gradual as you increase price. But again, this graph is imaginary because you cannot quantify sound quality.

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mcjasonb t1_j93p78s wrote

In the sub $100 area, the Hexa is ridiculously good. In the $200-300 range the Timeless or Timeless AE is a great set.

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Gobbelcoque t1_j93vy2x wrote

If you're happy with the sound, that's all that matters. You definitely aren't getting an "objectively bad" experience with that setup.

When I lost my btr5 I upgraded to the btr7 and.... I miss the BTR5. The audio difference was imperceptible and the form factor if the 5 is just way better.

I'd argue that a planar IEM like the 7hz diokos would be a noticeable improvement sound wise, but there's no need to really start chasing that unicorn. I could happily live forever out of CCA CRA's.

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c0ng0pr0 t1_j91m6zk wrote

KZ seems to be pretty good at balanced armature & dynamic driver tuning and setup.

I don’t think anyone has solved the energy efficiency problem with planar magnetic drivers

Since all the IEM producers have figured out 3d printing sound channels from the driver to the output canal… it becomes a question of tuning (which you can edit a bit with your DAC), & quality/design of the shell encasing drivers & board.

Value?

The non-KZ brands mostly have nicer packaging and accessories. KZ accessories aren’t great… but a decent cable upgrade is $15-$30, & good ear tips for $5-$20. Choose at will from other brands.

I really don’t think there is much sound improvement gained when spending over $150. Accessories and packaging sure does get better, but you don’t need everything to come in one box together, from 1 company. (Almost an anti-Apple statement.)

My friends compared hardware with me, who have high end UE custom IEMs, Etymotic ear penetrators, and other $400+ setups. They were all blown away by how a $50, $80, and $120 IEM sounded so good & satisfying compared to their more expensive setups.

The CIEM owner was the only who stayed with his brand… because they were custom fit.

With KZ the real problem becomes the shape of the IEMs. Some have a bump opposite the ear canal insert, some are smooth.

Example: AS16Pro & AST are both balanced armature setups. AS16Pro - $50ish 8 BA per ear No bump Wide ear nozzle (part you put the tips on)

AST - $120-140ish 12 BA per ear Has bump Standard ear nozzle

I love the sound of both. They are almost identical in terms of sound out put.

I’d love to use the AS16Pro. It looks better to me, it weighs less, but the ear nozzle is so wide I can’t wear them & be comfortable. I have narrow ear canal.

My friend who went from a $400 setup to AS16Pro loves the sound of the AST more, but the bump makes them not fit his ear. He has a giant ear canal by comparison. I use the smallest possible ear tips, he uses some triple flange giant tip that looks like an ear dildo. We are all different…

Oddly enough the bump seems mostly cosmetic in the AST. Straight up empty space in the bump (I love clear setups).

*I’m into detailed transparent sound output most of the time, so I prefer balanced armature setups from KZ most of the time. Sometimes I listen to the ZAS. It’s the nicest looking KZ IEM I have, so I’ll use those when I’m going places in the evening.

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