Finally got the Sundara's and.... I'm conflicted

Submitted by GrimTurtle666 t3_z854u7 in headphones

UPDATE: Listening to my favorite song, Graceland Too by Phoebe Bridgers, on the 58X's right now. Been listening to the tracks I mentioned below plus some others. So in general, where the Sundara shined for me - indie rock with male vocals, it's just slightly more enjoyable. With everything else though, and having eq'd the 58X with the IEF autoEQ plus minor tweaking... I prefer the 58X. I think the Sundara, in general, sounds a tiny bit wider and more open, and on some songs I prefer the mid presentation being a bit further back in the mix than it constantly being forward like on the 58X, but man oh man does the 58X trade blows with the Sundara in terms of details, clarity after EQ, imaging, and most importantly for me - the 58X has much better dynamics. Plus, the pads don't put uncomfortable pressure on my jaw, nor do the earcups make me ears hot after just a couple minutes. I must admit, the Sundara's have grown on me since I made this post, but after listening to these 58X's that I got for only $130, and the Sundara's being $285... the Sundara's are going back. I didn't mention this before but I also got the Salnotes Zero IEMs and they have SHOCKED me for being only $20... after HEAVY eq. I've been comparing all four of the audio devices I have right now - 58X, Sundara, Salnotes Zero, DT 770 Pro. If you want awesome technicalities with dead flat tuning out of the box, and you don't care about dynamics, the Sundara's are an absolute no-brainer. If you have a super tight budget, want to tinker heavily, and care more about tone than technicals, then the Salnotes Zero are insane. If you want good warm, fun, intimate, dynamic headphones that really could serve as a jack-of-all trades, and don't need eq but benefit, the 58X's are fantastic. And lastly, if you want punch you in the fucking face bass lord headphones without sacrificing mids and retaining spicy treble - say hello to the 770s. Yeah, those are my thoughts, thanks for the awesome discussions everyone!

Original post:

With the Sundara's down to $300 on Amazon, I was able to get them used like new from Amazon Warehouse for $285, so at that price I thought I had to try them finally. So far, I am both super impressed but also quite underwhelmed.

For reference, my daily drivers the last four years or so have been the Sennheiser HD598 Special Edition's, which I sold yesterday morning. I liked the sound of those, but always felt the bass left something to be desired, and it I wanted something with more clarity. When I got into EQ'ing some months ago, I made my own EQ by tweaking the AutoEQ settings from Crinacle's headphone graph; I lifted the Sennheiser veil, added some air, and added some more lower bass. That really breathed new life into them, but I still wasn't quite satisfied. Then I got the DT770 Pro 250ohms, so that I could listen to music at night without disturbing my partner. And that REALLY ignited my new headphone hunt.

To my ears, the DT 770s were far more detailed, way better imaging, and a soundstage that was respectable next to the 598. I also felt they had better instrument separation and layering - a great showing of this is All On Eyes On Me (Outtakes Version) by Bo Burnham. Towards the end of that song, there's two Bo's singing sort of discordantly with each other, and they eventually come back together to harmonize at the end. With the 598s, it was a little overwhelming to listen to because they blended together too much. But with the 770s, it was a joy to listen to, each voice was totally distinct.

Where the 598s crushed the 770s though was richness. Male vocals just sounded thin with the 770s. Fruit by James and the Shame is a great showing of this - with the 598s, Rhett's voice is so lush and thick, maybe unnaturally so, but it's such a pleasing listen. With the 770s, it falls a bit flat. So I set out to EQ the 770s, I got rid of the 100hz and 200hz notches, and I purposefully let the 200hz boost bleed out a bit and I found that that made male vocals so much more rich, much closer to the 598s.

Through this experimenting, I came to what I think I wanted in a headphone: clear, detailed, natural mids, punchy but not boomy bass, and sparkling, clear, and airy treble. This led me to the Sundara (the 58X Jubilee, DT1990 Pro also on my radar). The Sundara seemed to check all the boxes: punch and slam, responds to bass EQ well if I wanted more sub bass, supremely natural mids, big airy and sparkling treble. Just a big, open, natural sound.

And I agree with those descriptions of the Sundara... but I have one big issue with the sound (more issues with comfort). First the good:

  • The Sundara's sound is physically large. This would feel super immersive if not for the issue I'll lay out later. But I do love the width of the presentation.
  • The mids are very natural-sounding. I found female singers to not be super engaging, but some male vocalists are a joy, like The Backseat Lovers.
  • The treble is exactly as advertised - a little bright but I like bright, airy, sparkly, crisp.
  • Electric guitars, particularly the kind of high-neck plucking that a lot of indie rockers do, like in Watch Your Mouth by The Backseat Lovers, is so so so insanely pleasing. Combined with the width and air of the soundstage, I really do feel like I'm playing the guitar myself, which is a very cool feeling because I'm a guitar player.
  • The clarity is unlike anything I've heard. The detail is astounding. I'm hearing things I've never heard, and no part of the mix dominates the other... for better or worse.
  • The pads are nice, the headband super comfy.

But now the bad:

To me, the Sundara's just feel very sterile with a lot of my music. They NEVER sound bad, but a lot of times it's just... nice. It's pretty. Beautiful even. But unexciting. I'll run through a few tracks:

  • Fruit by James and the Shame. Everything is crystal clear, detailed, the vocals are nice, but I don't find it very exciting. The octave shifts that Rhett goes through in the chorus don't feel like they have any weight to them. From reading other posts, it seems some people find the Sundara's to be lacking in dynamics, and I find that to be the case here.
  • Mountains by Hans Zimmer. I was very excited for this, as people say the Sundara's sound amazing with Hans Zimmer soundtracks. I have the same issue as Fruit - SUPER detailed, incredible imaging, the width and breath of the music, the build up in this song had me at the edge of my seat. But when the music finally swells up, it's... nice. Again, clear, bright, detailed, technically brilliant, but it's just kinda boring. With the DT 770s, while the track as a whole feels much less refined, that swell gives me chills because it's just so much louder than the rest of the track. The Sundara puts EVERYTHING on an even playing field, for better or worse.
  • Sleeptalk by Dayseeker - this track is very interesting to me on the Sundara's, because I thought it'd awesome. I listened to When I Come Around by Green Day and All The Small Things by Blink 182 and with both I thought the Sundara handled them better than anything I've heard before: fast, electric, exciting! So with Sleeptalk, it's a bit more hardcore than Green Day and Blink, there's some screaming and heavier guitar work. The dynamics of the Sundara's lets down in this song again. The little gap in the music at 1:54 usually hits hard with the DT 770s or in my car and every time it makes me go "oooooo" but with the Sundara's, it just... happens, and it sounds bright, clear, and nice. The male vocals are great though, there's so much texture in the voice.
  • Moving away from sound, I have two big issues with the comfort. I definitely feel pressure on my jaw, which makes me want to take the headphones off after an hour or so. I'm not typically picky with these things, so this irritates me greatly. Second, my ears get very warm wearing these. I looked at rtings.com's review (not the best methodologies for audio I know) and compared to both the 770 and 598, the Sundara's get 4 degrees C hotter than the aforementioned! That's my bad for not looking it up beforehand, but damn. It's so noticeable when I switch back to my 770s and the cool leather of the Dekoni pads I bought washes over my ears. As I'm typing this I've been listening to the Sundara's and my left ear is noticeably warm. Right ear not as bad.

With all this in mind, the Sundara is a rollercoaster ride for me. I don't think it has the all-day comfort I'm looking for in my open-back daily drivers. With electric indie music with male leads, they SHINE. My god, if you have Sundara's, and you've never heard the band Peach Pit, go listen to Black Licorice, Up Granville, and Shampoo Bottles. Stunning. When the guitars really kick in at 1:21 on Shampoo Bottles, I literally leaned back in my chair with a vocal "OGHHHHH" like WOW. The guitars on Black Licorice are so buttery smooth, and that planar bass rumble in the background during the verse (I do have a 20hz bump for more rumble) and the growl of the electric rhythm guitar in the chorus... mind-blowing. Truly.

But here's the thing - I'm not at a point where I want to spend several hundred dollars per genre of music I like. Do I really want headphones that are jaw-dropping for two of the 10 or so vibes in my music collection? The biggest bummer for me is how the Sundara's treat my favorite song: Graceland Too by Phoebe Bridgers. Compared to the 770, the song is undoubtedly a more beautiful arrangement on the Sundara. The violins, banjo, bass, it's all just so refined and clear. Phoebe's voice sounds a little thinner, but I think more natural. The issue that gives me the big bummer, is that when the backing vocals of Lucy Dacus and Julien Baker come in at the end, while the Sundara's, again, separate their voices flawlessly both from each other and from the band, and everything is just so clear and beautifully on display for you, the dynamics just make it sound less impactful than my 770s. Maybe it's the combo of Mt. Beyer and rumbling sub-bass that gets me excited, I don't know.

So, to wrap this all up, the Sundara's have led me to believe that maybe neutral-bright isn't the tuning for me. Maybe I don't care about soundstage as much as I thought I did. Maybe I want something warmer, something with lush bass and rich mids and just enough treble to have room to breathe and sparkle a little. This has led me to purchasing the 58X Jubilee's. I'm not going to return the Sundara's yet. I'm gonna give them some time, see if the jaw pressure wears down, see if my ears can adjust to the temperature difference, give it some more brain burn-in time, but I will A/B test them with the 58X's and see which I like better. One of them will get returned, and I'll try to remember to update this post when I pick which one I like more. In the mean time, I hope you guys enjoyed this little read, I look forward to hearing your thoughts below, and if you need me, I'll be off listening to Peach Pit on the Sundara's because holy **** it's good.

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Comments

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The_D0lph1n t1_iy9xe04 wrote

I enjoyed reading this. The journey to finding out what aspects of sound you value most and which ones are less important is a huge part of the enjoyment of audio in my opinion. It's almost like self-discovery in a way.

I also find the Sundara can have pretty harsh jaw pressure. For me, it's weird because some days it's fine, and I wonder why I ever had problems with it. Then the next day it will make my jaw sore after half an hour.

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Icy_Vegetable1933 t1_iyajf8n wrote

Yes I remember my Sundaras also gave me jaw pressure. Not sure why they did and my future 6XX and Arya's don't since they have egg shaped earpads that come lower, or why my Emu Teaks don't with their circular pads. Weird to hear other people having the same thing. Wonder if a headband replacement would resolve it.

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The_D0lph1n t1_iyamrux wrote

I think it's a combination of shape, size, clamp pressure, pressure distribution, and each person's anatomy. I was wearing my Sundara today and I found that the clamp pressure was actually worst on my cheekbones in front of my ears. The size of the Sundara's earpads places pressure on a part of my cheekbones that I'm sensitive to and thus causes more discomfort.

In contrast, my Shangri-La Jr is vastly more comfortable than the Sundara because the earpad is slightly larger, and hence the clamp pressure is distributed over a larger area, and the areas in contact are different, and those are areas that I am less sensitive to. Also, the SGL Jr has earpad swivel, which the Sundara lacks. This means that the earcup will swivel to more evenly distribute the pressure towards the back of the earpads rather than the front which makes contact with my cheekbones. In that sense, perhaps a headband replacement would work, as it could add the earcup swivel that's missing on the stock headband.

Unfortunately for me, I tend to find many headphones that others find comfortable to be uncomfortable on me. The Philips Fidelio X2HR was reviewed to be very comfortable, but I found it so uncomfortable from both a hotspot and clamp pressure that it made me see stars from wearing it, and I had to return it due to discomfort. The Aeon 2 Closed is also rather uncomfortable and causes weird pressure on my temple, despite not even resting on my temple. Focal headphones in general are incapable of properly distributing downwards weight across the top of my head, and immediately form a hotspot. I guess I have a narrow and pointy head, so many headbands don't have enough curvature to properly distribute weight across my scalp.

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2ndRoundExit t1_iyapdlw wrote

My biggest complaint with the Sundaras was the lack of swivel. My old noires were the most comfortable headphones I've worn though, not sure if the chassis is different than the aeon 2 closed or not

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Opposite_Classroom39 t1_iybim06 wrote

Given sundaras fascinately dodgy track record for build quality, i really wouldnt trust them to put a swivel in at risk of it becoming yet another point of failure. The quality of the internal connections is bad as is.

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2ndRoundExit t1_iybir9l wrote

The Arya headband is fantastic, just wish they used that instead. I even swapped some emu teaks to an Arya headband. Massive upgrade

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Opposite_Classroom39 t1_iybib9f wrote

Dt 770 had severe clamp pressure for me compared to the sundara, the head band barely fit on Bd compared to hifiman which was roomy Pad comfort way & clamp pressure better on sundara but the padding doesnt bounce back much in between uses. I have 62cm head ovoid-ish ( i have to keep track for helmet sizing on motorcycles).

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TheFrator t1_iyb0hoe wrote

+1. Audio is a personal journey and you really just need to try headphones for yourself.

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ku1185 t1_iya0ram wrote

I had same experience with Sundaras, coming from DT770s and HD58x. I just didn't enjoy it due to poor dynamics imo. It had a nice sense of clarity, good separation, fast and clean transients, etc., but my booty remained unshaken. Everything felt just... detached, discombobulated, lifeless.

Got the DT1990s after which I loved. But be warned, those are punishing headphones on wrong tracks and upstream gear.

EDIT: Also didn't think the cups were very comfortable. Couldn't find a way to fit them that didn't lead to my ears feeling sore after a couple of hours.

FWIW, I thought the HE6seV2 was basically a better Sundaras. Very much reminded me of the Sundaras with the addition of much better dynamics. However, those are ridiculously hard to drive, and my Singxer SA-1 could not keep up with even modest -3db preamp engaged. After a certain point, increasing volume on the SA-1 led to HE6seV2 to simply lose bass without getting louder (at least, as I perceived it). Strangest thing I've experienced.

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guesswhochickenpoo t1_iybcgq9 wrote

I tried Sundara's after getting the 6XX I thought I was in an extremely small minority or even totally on my own thinking the Sundara's weren't that great and I had much of the same "detached" experience as you. The 6XX make me feel like part of the music, like I'm immersed in it and right in there with the band whereas the Sundara's made me feel like the music was being played at me from across the room but not in a good way and it felt like more than just a soundstage difference. Someone described them as being more "deep" than wide which resonated with me.

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Guipnox t1_iyaqlnb wrote

Try a Hifiman HE6seV2 new for $449.

I think it fits your desired sound (but it needs mods to really shrine): visceral and dynamic with tactile and slammy bass, big stage and awesome detail and imaging.

I heard Mountains and the part you described is incredible. A grand, wall of sound, with huge dynamics and texture.

Definitely recommend building a setup around these insane headphones!

You can PM me for mods and tips. I love these headphones and wish more people would know how crazy they are :)

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GrimTurtle666 OP t1_iybnjvt wrote

Ooo I’ll look into them!

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pongpaktecha t1_iybzod0 wrote

The HFM HE6SE v2 is a absolute joy, but only if you can power it correctly. I'll pull out my old dx3 pro plus tomorrow (if I have power since there's a snow storm in my area) and try my He6se v2 with them. I had a little bit of fun with EQ and my He6se v2 and man they take EQ super well. I was able to get chest thumping levels of bass but needed a ton of power to get them up there. My beta 22 amp does like 5w at 50 ohms and I was really pushing the volume to 2-3 o'clock with a -40 db preamp gain along with a +40 db bass shelf. Obviously I don't have those settings all the time I just wanted to see how much bass I can get it while still having super clean and detailed bass. Oh also be warned they are pretty heavy with the double sided magnets and all (I think almost 1 lb/450 ish grams)

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GrimTurtle666 OP t1_iyc72gt wrote

I think that's the biggest bass shelf I've ever heard of lol... love it. Sometimes you're just in the mood to shake the brain with a little bass rumble. Stay warm tomorrow!

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SchwizzelKick66 t1_iybinc1 wrote

I felt largely the same both times I bought the Sundara. The sound is indeed beautiful, but somehow lifeless at the same time. I like to describe them as literally having two walls of sound on either side of your head. The walls are a a good width apart, but they're just vertical walls with seemingly no layering or depth.

I think because of this lack of layering and depth, it makes them sound sort of lifeless unfortunately. It's really obvious if you try to game with them. The lack of dynamics becomes readily apparent.

Still their sound is beautiful. The airiness is incredible, and though they are a touch bright to me I think the overall tuning is amazing.

But like you said, the comfort and build is just not for daily wear.

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GrimTurtle666 OP t1_iybnyr6 wrote

Yeah I did a quick gaming test with them with the Squad realistic war sounds video on YouTube and then I played a little bit of Red Dead 2 and didn’t feel very engaged.

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Lelouch25 t1_iyaczmn wrote

It’s just the bass, most Hifimans lack this. You can try Monolith 1060C with recessed mids or 1070C without recessed mids.

Monolith 1570 will have more depth.

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PenisFly_AhhhhScary t1_iyapj5r wrote

only the cheaper hifimans don’t have bass

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Lelouch25 t1_iyatnkw wrote

Right, but I’d wager it’s more fun pairing some Hifimans with V shaped planars like the 1060C and 1570s.

By the way, would you say the Edition XS is kind of the beginning of that Sundara + Bass journey or do we have to look at $1k+?

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PenisFly_AhhhhScary t1_iyb9hne wrote

what do you mean

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Lelouch25 t1_iybae6z wrote

Do they have more bass or sufficient bass? I’ve been looking at Edition XS lately to upgrade from the Sundara.

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PenisFly_AhhhhScary t1_iybb8ek wrote

xs bass is like super flat and goes down to like 6hz. It’s my favorite bass response of a headphone so far. If you have a ifi zen can it has a bass curve button and it works so well on xs. The bass can be shaking the headphone but doesn’t overpower the other frequencies

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Lelouch25 t1_iybbr23 wrote

Oh that is interesting. The bass boost on the zen dacs are kind of single frequency. Doesn’t extend the bass. Got tired of it after the first month.

So they added more sub-bass to the XS. Cool 😎

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umph45 t1_iycxudr wrote

Ooohh I can totaly relate to your experience with the sundaras. I have one as well, and it does well when I consider individual components like detail, clarity, and accurate bass/mids/highs. But, I'm just not enjoying the experience together as much as I thought I would, and even thought maybe I expected too much. I'm finding here that a few people have had the same issue. I got the sundaras coming from listening to a grado sr80e for a few years cuz I wanted an upgrade. I miss the grado signature sound that makes vocals 'sparkle', meaning they sound like you're at the front row, and you get the sound of someone singing directly into the mic (amazing sound for so much chaos in treble). So I played around with EQ on the sundaras to sound more like grados by referencing rtings graph. And I've been getting into auto EQ (learned about it from a crinacle video), but I feel you don't have to stick to auto EQ and the harman curve. After EQing my sundaras to fit the grado signature sound and well, it kinda worked! It turned sparkly, and resembled the grado right-in-the-mic vocals, exciting and crisp sound, albeit losing soundstage as voices and instruments sound closer to me.

Yeah so I think I still have a lot that I can do to shape the sound coming off my sundaras. Similar, but different in sequence from you, I am getting dt770 250ohms for closed backs soon and am excited to see if they are more 'dynamic' sounding as you state!

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hyde0000 t1_iyaasnh wrote

I had the same issue with D5200 upgrade to flagship D9200. I could hear EVERY note. Clarity went way up but it just sounds.... Boring?

I later realize for me at least Tonality > Technicality. So I'd rather listen to something less refined but to my taste rather than something more refined but not to my taste.

So as you said maybe Sundara is just too sterile for your taste. As much as most "audiophile" say they don't want midbass, it adds the extra warmth that's needed in most situations. For myself I also realize I can't use headphones that doesn't have treble sparkle and vocal presence. So first you need to find your preference.

That being said, what are you using to drive the Sundara? Sundara need a lot of power to sing. I've heard of people who switched amp and completely changed the sound. One recent example I read is the new FiiO K7 seems to pair well. Otherwise try to look for beefier / warmer amp. I imagine THX 999 would be a poor pairing since it's said to be cold/sterile. Topping amp probably not good either since it's also lean/clean sounding.

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GrimTurtle666 OP t1_iyacbhl wrote

I'm using a Topping Dx3 Pro+ which should have enough power and is said to be very transparent, which may not be a good thing for the Sundara!

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hyde0000 t1_iyadvcg wrote

Yeah effectively you have lean/cold headphone driven by lean/cold dac/amp. Otherwise normally speaking DX3 Pro+ is a respectable dac/amp combo.

But over time I realize headphone + dac + amp is a math problem LOL. End result is all that matters.

So yeah probably need a warmer dac or amp. Good luck!

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blorg t1_iybzs1b wrote

If you want "warmer", that's what EQ is for. The DX3 Pro+ is an accurate DAC/amp, you can add as much "warmer" as you like with EQ. Or whatever else either.

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plmon24 t1_iyarms1 wrote

Good luck with your incoming HD58X! I found the HD58X to have richer, more engaging mids than the Sundara, but I did miss the extension and clean, textured quality of the Sundara, particularly in the bass. I think after hearing both, you'll be able to further narrow down what components you want in your "perfect" sound.

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hewmanbin t1_iybmlv7 wrote

interesing read. i like to know about other's audio journeys. please do give us an update after ur done a/b-ing.

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