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ThePrussianGrippe t1_j6v6kso wrote

Reply to comment by Professional_Bite725 in Discovery of embalming workshop reveals how ancient Egyptians mummified the dead by Magister_Xehanort

The ancient global trade is a fascinating topic. I’d love to read a book about it.

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ClaustroPhoebia t1_j6wjtsp wrote

This is actually what my postgraduate is on; I’m down to answer any questions I may be able to answer.

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TheTreesHaveRabies t1_j6ws5kb wrote

Well I'll bite:

What kinds of evidence are you looking at?

How do you navigate the language barriers?

Theoretically, how do you approach questions? Ex. Globally, regionally, locally? How do you derive inferences?

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ClaustroPhoebia t1_j6wyr9t wrote

Okay so for context, my specialism is Ptolemaic and Roman Egypt so that is gonna inform my particular evidence. In terms of literature, there are bits and pieces all over the place: Strabo, Pliny the Elder, Diodorus, and a variety of Ptolemaic poets and stuff.

There’s also some contextual evidence such as references to goods that could only have come from abroad. One of the big pieces of evidence is the so-called Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, which is basically a trade guide written by a Roman sailor advising people on the best places to trade and sail in the Red Sea and parts of the Indian Ocean.

We also have papyri which often complements the literary evidence. As a good example, we have one papyrus attesting to the sinking of an elephantegoi, a type of ship developed by Ptolemy II for the acquisition of elephants from East Africa.

Then there’s just archaeology: a Roman coin under a Japanese castle, Greek-inspired art in Southeast Asia, many many pots in India, an Egyptian statue in Zimbabwe just as examples. What’s important to remember is that this doesn’t necessarily indicate that Romans or Greeks necessarily went to these places, but that they were tied into very active and wide ranging trade networks.

Language barriers are always difficult, not least in papyri where they can be in multiple ancient languages and have often been translated into multiple different modern languages. Often the best way is just to have a good knowledge of lots of different languages, especially modern languages in order to access as many translations as possible.

Going forward, I’d really like to work on my Greek and Coptic and try to push digitisation so that papyri are more accessible for future scholars. In other cases, sometimes the beta you can do is find other people who may know relevant languages or have expertise in relevant areas.

Theoretically, I’m of the personal opinion that local, regional, and global narratives are extensions of one another. They can be dealt with separately but a completely picture has to acknowledge that they are neither separate nor isolated.

Personally, I have dealt more with regional understandings of trade than either global or local.

Hope this helps!

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TheTreesHaveRabies t1_j6wzbgv wrote

You rock pal! Thanks for that awesome info! Super interesting stuff! Do you have a book recommendation perhaps?

Best of luck to you!

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2muchtequila t1_j6y726h wrote

Out of curiosity, do you know if it was it more common at the time for long distance trade routs to be a trader making a super long journey or a series of relays. Like I sell to the market that's only a couple of weeks away, they sell to another market and so on?

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ClaustroPhoebia t1_j6zij92 wrote

Okay so for a time there was a theory that most maritime trade was basically this process of traders sorta just working their way along coastlines looking for a profit wherever they could. The idea was that Greek merchants didn’t really have set ideas of where there was a good market for anything so they just bought and sold whatever and wherever they could.

Nowadays, we know that is not true. Merchants in the ancient world actually had a very complex understanding of the wider market and where they could make a profit. As such, they plied specific routes, often over rather large distances, that they knew would make a profit.

For your question, the answer is that it kinda varies. Strabo tells us that, under the Ptolemies, some 20 ships made the journey to India each year which increased to 100 under the Romans. Now whether or not we accept those exact numbers, the point is that he attests to a certain number of Greek and Roman ships making the journey as far as India each year.

However, there are a couple of points to raise here. Firstly, there is no reason to suspect they personally went any further east than India (it just wouldn’t make any financial or personal sense to do so). Secondly, these Greeks and Romans are probably a minority of shipping.

Instead, the main journeys across the Indian Ocean were probably dominated by the Arabians and Ethiopians (specifically Axum) who understood the winds of the Indian Ocean a lot better than the Greeks. That said we do hear of attempts by Ptolemaic explorers to try and map the winds in the later periods of the dynasty.

So for the Greeks and Romans, trade in the Indian Ocean was probably mostly through intermediaries (buying and selling at, say Adulis or Muscat or Petra). However, plenty of Africans and Arabians were making direct trips across the ocean.

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livinginlyon t1_j6ww0c9 wrote

I'll bite, as well!

What books do you recommend on the subject.

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etaipo t1_j6wwhf3 wrote

also biting

what are your thoughts on possible coca and tobacco use in ancient Egypt?

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Triptukhos t1_j6xy9a0 wrote

How are you finding graduate/post-graduate life, both academic and in the job market? My undergrad was half classics/history/archaeology and i greatly enjoyed it (although after four years as a commercial archaeologist i am never going back to that), but decided against grad school/post-grad in those disciplines. I love classics and history i just need to make some money too. I hate having to choose.

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Mitchs_Frog_Smacky t1_j6wysx2 wrote

I've heard that the recent discovery of trace tobacco and cocaine in the systems of mummies put into question how large and global trade routes actually were. However due to this discovery, it seems to upend a large amount of current 'accepted' history on trade routes and is being dismissed as a fluke, even though multiple labs agree on the results.

Do you have any information or thoughts on this?

(Two links related to the subject found from Internet search to back my question. Originally heard of this debate on a multi-movie doc on Egypt)

http://faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm

https://worldhistory.us/ancient-history/ancient-egypt/cocaine-mummies.php

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pineguy64 t1_j6yewxm wrote

>I've heard that the recent discovery of trace tobacco and cocaine in the systems of mummies put into question how large and global trade routes actually were. However due to this discovery, it seems to upend a large amount of current 'accepted' history on trade routes and is being dismissed as a fluke, even though multiple labs agree on the results.

>Do you have any information or thoughts on this?

>(Two links related to the subject found from Internet search to back my question. Originally heard of this debate on a multi-movie doc on Egypt)

>http://faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm

>https://worldhistory.us/ancient-history/ancient-egypt/cocaine-mummies.php

This is so unbelievable it's almost funny. Tobacco comes from the Americas and wasn't brought to the "Old World" until 1559 for King Phillip II of Spain. Which one is more likely here, that the results of these tests are an error or that the entire history of tobacco as we know it is wrong, as well as hundreds of years of recorded history of trade?

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ClaustroPhoebia t1_j71b1ph wrote

OP is basically following on from Balabanova. So I’m actually not sure about this from what I’ve done so far but I did my due diligence and hunted down some bibliography on Balananova’s claims as well as the articles he referenced.

Basically, Balabanova tried toxicology on several unprovenanced mummies from a German museum and found traces indicating cocaine and nicotine (not tobacco) in their system.

I specify this because there are several plants in West Africa that contain nicotine without requiring tobacco. The real question is: cocaine. Now the evidence here is already really dodgy: toxicology on mummies of an uncertain origin, even if they are real mummies, is incredibly dodgy.

Not to mention there being no evidence of either plant anywhere else in the record, the fact that no other mummies have revealed either nicotine or cocaine in the same way. Even Balabanova didn’t suggest that the Egyptians were trading with the Americas, rather than there were (not extinct) varieties of the two plants in Africa at the time of the pharaohs.

The question I have is what about the rest of the stuff? Egypt is great because the dry conditions mean that a lot survives and people put all sorts of stuff, including high value imports, in tombs. So my question is: if the Egyptians did have trade contacts with the Americas, where’s the rest of the stuff?

What about cacao beans or maize? I mean rice and spices and herbs survive from Egypt, so why are there no other indications of this trade?

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myownbattles t1_j6vrzhn wrote

Check out the Great Courses series called "The Economic History of the World Since 1400" or something along those lines. It is INCREDIBLE. It's on Prime if you've got it.

It's definitely a broad overview because you can only fit so much in a course, but dang, is it ever useful. It's great context for where we are and how we got here.

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Praglik t1_j6w6qqo wrote

This is way too recent, basically covering the silk roads and emerging "Indies Companies" rather than Ancient Egypt and their contemporaries. Is there any documentary about ancient trade networks?

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ZippyDan t1_j6w0ks4 wrote

Since 1400 BCE or CE?

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Orngog t1_j6wa5eg wrote

CE. It describes itself as being about modern history...

I assume OP is either American or young.

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EpilepticFits1 t1_j6wq3kg wrote

"The Silk Roads: A New World History" by Peter Frankopan isn't specifically about ancient trade. But it is a fantastic world history from a Central Asian and Middle Eastern focus.

He does a great job of pointing out the global forces and trends that tied Asia and Europe together. Most histories look at Central Asia as a wasteland that divided the pre-modern world but Frankopan offers a view of a connected world that created Middle Eastern and Mediterranean empires supported by overland trade. It's no coincidence that the European discovery of sea routes to Asia in the 1400-1500's coincides with the economic decline of the Middle East.

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Sensitive_File6582 t1_j6x230w wrote

During Egypts known heyday The tin needed for bronze was all sourced from mines in Britain and Afghanistan iirc.

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