Submitted by IslandChillin t3_z2zxf9 in history
Comments
Svarthofde t1_ixjnwfe wrote
But was he an emperor if he ruled only Dacia Felix, especially if it happened during the crisis of the 3rd century? Zenobia minted gold coins with her son's likeness, but named him Caesar not Augustus, so even though he appeared on many coins in Parthia and Asia minor he was never emperor
SolomonBlack t1_ixl7ouo wrote
Once Julius got it started everyone with eyes on power in the Roman world would mint coins as propaganda tools. Brutus minted coins to commentate murdering Caesar with his face on one side and daggers on the reverse. And you could do this because the coins were struck… with a hammer. Anyone with reserves of metal could do it not just the emperor at some super secure mint.
Yet while being on denarii doesn’t make you emperor it is physical evidence you existed.
luke_in_geneq t1_ixm64sq wrote
Just curious, what would be the benefit of making coins other than propaganda? Or is there none?
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harkat82 t1_ixm6pqw wrote
For the state theres an obvious advantage, coins are a lot easier to use than raw gold so there's a benefit to the economy (assuming you can stop them being debased). So that's why emperor's did it. But for your average oligarch it's mostly just propaganda (or maybe theres a coin shortage in their region).
The_Original_Gronkie t1_ixncebo wrote
Can you imagine Musk or Bezos minting their own coins and valuing them based on the current price if the metal? That seems like something that would get those guys off.
TTKnumberONE t1_ixoilyt wrote
Let me introduce you to the majority of cryptocurrencies
__Geg__ t1_ixmkd0k wrote
Coins were used to pay troops, that spent them in the territory the army traversed.
aphilsphan t1_ixmwb8x wrote
You run into the problem of differences in silver/gold/etc content, so in addition to the difference in price between gold and silver themselves, the weights and purity of coins varied. Rome was a very sophisticated place to have a monetized economy under those circumstances. A merchant had to have a keen eye and good scales. It’s should be no real surprise that the economy in the West reverted to barter eventually. Imagine having a bag of euro and dollars and kroner today without access to a computer to know their immediate value.
sighthoundman t1_ixnsqo6 wrote
The consensus (not always the same as the truth) is that coins were first minted as a guarantee of purity/honest weight of the precious metals. Of course the people doing this put their logo on the product.
There is some evidence that gold coins were ceasing to be currency and becoming a method of hoarding gold in the latter half of the 3rd century.
YerBoobsAreCool t1_ixn22qt wrote
TIL the Romans had their own version of the Franklin Mint.
dat_underscore t1_ixk7ka0 wrote
Caesars were emperors, just of a lower, junior grade to Augustuses. And, during the third century there were many emperors that only controlled a small amount of territory. In fact, barely any had control over the full empire
ScoffSlaphead72 t1_ixkocgz wrote
This is actually where I believe we got the hierarchy for emperors and kings. As in an emperor of a region being above the local kings of the region. For example, Germany after unification was ruled by an Emperor (Kaiser) and he ruled over regional kings like the king of bavaria or Saxony. I am trying to think of a better example but the only other I can think of is the HRE.
MidniteMustard t1_ixkqnmr wrote
Japan had a similar setup with daimyos, shoguns, and the emperor.
Doubtful it's related to Rome, but still an interesting similarity.
phenomduck t1_ixkxydf wrote
It's not super surprising to have a similar system pop-up.
Ruler of one region defeats the other. The victor, in order to more easily control a larger region, leaves the defeated ruler locally in charge as long as they swear allegiance to the larger empire.
chineseduckman t1_ixl6k7o wrote
>as long as they swear allegiance
*pay massive amounts of money in taxes/tribute
phenomduck t1_ixl6uqu wrote
Imperialism rules the world for a reason
francisdavey t1_ixlk3fu wrote
There was only one shogun (when there was any). The emperor > shogun relationship was not at all like emperor's relationship with kings or imperial subjects in the Holy Roman Empire for instance.
The shogun *nominally* ruled on behalf of the emperor but in fact the emperor was a ceremonial figure and had no actual power (except, perhaps, at the outset of the Ashikaga Shogunate, when there was what we might think of as a civil war between pro- and anti-Ashikaga factions, one of which was "imperial").
Sometimes the shogun was themselves a figurehead - eg during much of the Kamakura Bakufu when it was the Hojo regents that were actually in control or at least nominally so.
Daimyo are more complicated and a bit more like feudal subjects in the Reich sense. But only a bit.
Orngog t1_ixl5k5e wrote
What about Mesopotamia?
ColonialGovernor t1_ixla6oo wrote
I find the King and emperor relationship a good example. Just a twist with the Caesar is that i think it also implies succession. Maybe like a king and crown prince relationship.
Welshhoppo t1_ixlhphe wrote
Sometimes usurpers would call themselves Caesar to try and appease the ruling Emperor. "I'm not really after your job, I'm just helping you out see. I'm totally just a Caesar."
Although that was later under the Tetrarch when the distinction was made by Diocletian.
Ferengi_Earwax t1_ixmmbxs wrote
My names Brutus, I'm not trying to stab you, just trying to scratch your back. ;)
Ferengi_Earwax t1_ixmm4oe wrote
That isn't where that system originated. It goes back to the Persians, mycaneans, Egyptians, and nearly the whole civilized history of the near east. Probably the most recorded widespread Era of this was the middle to late bronze age. It was an ever changing patch work of large empires with their "kings of the world" imposing their authority over smaller kings of territories. The tradition goes back as far as the sumerians. Another example is when the hittite emperor writes to the mycanean king and calls him a "great king" and differentiates between that kings Control over his petty kings. The same can be seen between Egypt and the hittites in the treaty of kadesh.
ScoffSlaphead72 t1_ixmn6vv wrote
It's not where it originated but it's where the language and specific style of it in european monarchies came from.
Ferengi_Earwax t1_ixmoqvb wrote
The etymology of the terms in our language yes.
LateInTheAfternoon t1_ixlwksn wrote
>Caesars were emperors, just of a lower, junior grade to Augustuses
Only after the reform of Diocletian, the so-called tetrarchy. Before the tetrarchy Caesar was reserved for the emperor and occasionally for his to be successor (from the time of Hadrian to the reign of Diocletian). Originally Caesar was used for all male members of the imperial family (Augustus to Hadrian). Since the coin is from before Diocletian, Caesar means that it refers to an emperor.
edit: rephrased the last sentence.
Regulai t1_ixliwlz wrote
So in the Roman era there wasn't necessarily a fixed pure title universally used to mean "emperor" as we think of it today as Emperors usually had multiple titles unique to them. In particular many titles including Imperator could often be granted to other individuals (though not always common) and the most important titles varied: Augustus, Princeps, Caeser, Imperator, Dominus. And let's not mention the greek ones.
An emperor of the US titled in the Roman way would be something like: "The Majestic Field Marshal President Biden Washington" (note no use of Emperor/king as Roman emperors pretended to be democratic)
Imperator (the actual title) originally meant something akin to "Field Marshal" today, that is "a high ranking military office". While it is the most closely associated to attaining real power, it would at times be granted to notable generals or other individuals and as a title of 'General' wouldn't have had the same sense of "king" that we think of Emperor today.
Augustus and Princeps were both more like "Majesty" and "Great" types of titles and likely conveyed more of a "kingly" nature.
Caeser, while initially of key importance, over time became associated with heir's and would eventually be the equivalent of "crown prince".
Dominus was later added by Diocletian to replace Princeps, with the meaning basically being "lord".
kesint t1_ixllduk wrote
Isn't it a bit wrong to say that Princeps are a majesty and kingly title? Augustus received the title Princeps civitatis which is first citizen, since Rex and Dictator would create resentment amongst the influential people.
Regulai t1_ixlna24 wrote
That's just the pretense to justify being granted a special title to circumvent the disliked rex. In actual practice "princeps" basically was conceived to indicate rulership as an alternative to rex and is essentially equivalent to rex.
Until it was eliminated, even if other titles were typically favoured, Princeps was the title that legally most indicated "the ruler of the empire" (it essentially meant that it was "right" for you to be in charge).
Myriachan t1_ixmuug3 wrote
“Imperator” means like, “one who commands” and so could be considered “commander”. I guess “imperator” in Latin and “commander” in English both have the connotation of military leader.
English “emperor” does come from “imperator”, but with significant semantic drift.
Regulai t1_ixn05xt wrote
Its a very indepth topic, but I chose field marshal because I feel it best captures the full intent of how the title was used.
Originally imperator was more of a mere description referring to anyone who holds imperium, but over time it started to be used as a specific title that would be acclaimed by high ranking men after great victories. And then under empire was highly restricted to essentially only the main leaders. Added note in roman society 'command' was a significant status with significant legal implications and not something to be viewed as just a "military leadership" role
The closest parable to this sense is the 5 star marshal rank, which is a supreme rank but is not a standard position but instead typically given as an honor after wars and victories to leaders of militaries. And in fact dictators often take field marshal as their key title for much of this reason.
IolausTelcontar t1_ixmb3p9 wrote
Commander in Chief is basically Imperator in the US.
Regulai t1_ixmlasz wrote
"General of the Army" (the 5 star rank equivalent to marshal) would actually be the closer parable. In the US the title is mostly only given out as a great honour particularly after victory/war.
Imperator similarly is an honor title granted for success. Many emperors would in fact be proclaimed imperator multiple times for major achievements they attained, as opposed to a simple title equivalent to head of the army.
Vladimir_Putting t1_ixl5zhq wrote
If you declare yourself an emperor, rule territory, and no one stops you... Aren't you an emperor?
Pokeputin t1_ixli9zb wrote
It depends what you mean by "emperor", if you go by historic definition of a ruler of several peoples, or you go by the "Roman" meaning of emperor, which meant ruler of the Roman Empire.
To fit the first definition you have to satisfy it's requirements, just calling yourself like that won't change anything.
To fit the second option you need to be the legitimate ruler of the Roman empire, and the "legitimate" is the tricky part of the question.
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Vladimir_Putting t1_ixlr0os wrote
>I should also be noted that because of this the emperor of japan would not be an emperor until like the 19th century
Weren't there multiple peoples inhabiting the Japanese islands, under Imperial rule, before the 19th century?
The "Japanese" aren't completely homogeneous to my understanding.
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Pokeputin t1_ixlskfc wrote
I don't think personal unions count because despite having same head of state the countries remain separate and act each in their own interest so effectively they don't have a single ruling power.
That's why for example The British Commonwealth isn't an empire despite the king of the UK being head of state in all those countries.
I guess it makes sense to say all peoples in an empire should be under the common title though, but I think it can be tricky to define because sometimes you have states that are under a title in name, but practically independent and vice versa.
Ferengi_Earwax t1_ixmng7a wrote
Queen Victoria was crowned empress of India. More as a title to flatter her, but its technically correct because she was the figured head monarch of distinct countries/peoples.
Pokeputin t1_ixmphcv wrote
I was talking about the current British Commonwealth, during Queen Victoria Britain was obviously an Empire.
tacsatduck t1_ixljfzx wrote
Well you could have a situation like Norton I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico
Ferengi_Earwax t1_ixmn78i wrote
The term emperor usually means you rule over various different lands and semi autonomous regions as an overlord. Even if you look at the tetrarchy, each of the emperors ruled over multiple provinces, with their Caesar being their number 2, and sometimes ruling over the lesser parts of that regions. Pretty much after the fall of rome, the term emperor returned to meaning "leader of the world".
bokononpreist t1_ixmuk5p wrote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century
This will give you a better idea of what was going on in this period of the empire.
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wygrif t1_ixmviws wrote
I mean, Wikipedia lists shlubs like the son of Magnus Maximus as legit Augusti, so I think the standard for who counts is "did you claim it, have territory, and a army"
Mech-Waldo t1_ixnp527 wrote
Assuming that they're fake because we don't know who Sponsian was is silly. If you're gonna counterfeit a bunch of ancient gold coins, why would you make up an emperor who never existed?
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Ac4sent t1_ixluyug wrote
Why not include this explanation in the post?
_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_ t1_ixmnn81 wrote
The post is a link to this information...
Froakiebloke t1_ixl1wjt wrote
It would be funny if he was still fake but had been made up in the third century rather than much later.
So some guy creates this coin of a made up emperor as some elaborate prank, and then since we can prove it was old enough to be genuine we assume that said emperor was real
WurthWhile t1_ixmglkz wrote
I have seen counterfeit Roman coins sell for a huge amount of money because they were counterfeited at the time of the Roman empire. Funny how if it's old enough it's almost certainly valuable applies once you reach a couple thousand years old. Including counterfeit money.
Passing4human t1_ixkxubo wrote
There was another dubious emperor at about the same time, Silbannacus, known from two coins found in France.
hungry4danish t1_ixmrxb2 wrote
What was a much longer article than I expected for someone who is only known about because of the existence of two coins.
Negative_Gravitas t1_ixja5ic wrote
Wow. Really interesting. Thanks OP.
Emiath t1_ixlxdb2 wrote
What do you think about this discovery?
toldinstone t1_ixm6no7 wrote
I'm (cautiously) excited by it - it's not every day that a new usurper is discovered
Emiath t1_ixm7ilz wrote
That’s awesome to hear. I’m hoping you will cover it in one of your videos or future books. I an currently reading your book and it’s AMAZING. Easy to read an digest. I’m hoping there will be more books written by you in the future. I’m looking forward to it.
goodlittlesquid t1_ixkrkhu wrote
Could this guy have been damnatio memoriae’d?
dynex811 t1_ixmdcea wrote
In the third century it's more likely he was a regional commander. Obviously faulty logic, but we have plenty of examples of people who's memory was supposed to be erased but wasn't (Domitian and Marc Antony come to mind)
Tiako t1_ixmt8bs wrote
It is worth pointing out that damnatio memoriae is not actually an ancient phrase, or even really an ancient concept. There are cases of emperors having public monuments defaced but it wasn't really the official, organized, act of rewriting history that it is sometimes portrayed as in popular imagination. Think more pulling down Saddam Hussein's statues in Iraq or changing the street names in Germany after the second world war than something out of 1984.
In this case this is probably less any deliberate act of disrespect and more that our sources for the so-called Third Century Crisis are somewhat poor, and Dacia is a somewhat poorly understood region of the empire.
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AutoModerator t1_ixk0ldo wrote
Hi!
It seems like you are talking about the popular but ultimately flawed and false "winners write history" trope!
While the expression is sometimes true in one sense (we'll get to that in a bit), it is rarely if ever an absolute truth, and particularly not in the way that the concept has found itself commonly expressed in popular history discourse. When discussing history, and why some events have found their way into the history books when others have not, simply dismissing those events as the imposed narrative of 'victors' actually harms our ability to understand history.
You could say that is in fact a somewhat "lazy" way to introduce the concept of bias which this is ultimately about. Because whoever writes history is the one introducing their biases to history.
A somewhat better, but absolutely not perfect, approach that works better than 'winners writing history' is to say 'writers write history'.
This is more useful than it initially seems. Until fairly recently the literate were a minority, and those with enough literary training to actually write historical narratives formed an even smaller and more distinct class within that.
To give a few examples, Genghis Khan must surely go down as one of the great victors in all history, but he is generally viewed quite unfavorably in practically all sources, because his conquests tended to harm the literary classes.
Similarly the Norsemen historically have been portrayed as uncivilized barbarians as the people that wrote about them were the "losers" whose monasteries got burned down.
Of course, writers are a diverse set, and so this is far from a magical solution to solving the problems of bias. The painful truth is, each source simply needs to be evaluated on its own merits.
This evaluation is something that is done by historians and part of what makes history and why insights about historical events can shift over time.
This is possibly best exemplified by those examples where victors did unambiguously write the historical sources.
The Spanish absolutely wrote the history of the conquest of Central America from 1532, and the reports and diaries of various conquistadores and priests are still important primary documents for researchers of the period.
But 'victors write the history' presupposes that we still use those histories as they intended, which is simply not the case. It both overlooks the fundamental nature of modern historical methodology, and ignores the fact that, while victors have often proven to be predominant voices, they have rarely proven to be the only voices.
Archaeology, numismatics, works in translation, and other records all allow us at least some insight into the 'losers' viewpoint, as does careful analysis of the 'winner's' records.
We know far more about Rome than we do about Phoenician Carthage. There is still vital research into Carthage, as its being a daily topic of conversation on this subreddit testifies to.
So while it's true that the balance between the voices can be disparate that doesn't mean that the winners are the only voice or even the most interesting.
Which is why stating that history is 'written by the victors' and leaving it at that is harmful to the understanding of history and the process of studying history.
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ImperatorRomanum t1_ixmz57f wrote
Makes you wonder how many unsuccessful usurpers we don’t know about.
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ExodusRex t1_ixnh7hh wrote
The coins themselves could be a "bid" to gain power. Local powers would mint coins in an effort to produce power. More scholarly work needs doing methinks.
candornotsmoke t1_ixnp71k wrote
Or, maybe an uprising that failed?
Royal_Bumblebee_ t1_iycppoq wrote
looks like the wangs will have to wait for Tom Holland to get back from Scotland before we can get a definitive answer to this question!
Keurnaonsia t1_ixla77x wrote
This would be an interesting read for r/Romania. Thanks OP!
IslandChillin OP t1_ixj41xy wrote
"A hoard of gold coins once thought to be fakes have been authenticated by researchers who say the artefacts reveal a long-lost Roman emperor.
The coins bear the name and image of a shadowy historical figure, Sponsian, whose existence was previously placed in doubt by experts who suggested the coins were the work of sophisticated 18th-century fraudsters.
But a scientific analysis has concluded that the coins are genuine third-century artefacts, and the researchers make the case that Emperor Sponsian was also the real deal.
“We’re very confident that they’re authentic,” said Prof Paul Pearson, of University College London, who led the research. “Our evidence suggests Sponsian ruled Roman Dacia, an isolated goldmining outpost, at a time when the empire was beset by civil wars and the borderlands were overrun by plundering invaders.”