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[deleted] t1_ja4l6e0 wrote

So is Israel shutting down settlements? Is Palestine ending financial support of the families of terrorists? I like the words but they seem to be empty

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victorfiction t1_ja4mi3u wrote

It’s such a shit show. Only thing that will fix this is good paying jobs and investment in the region so people care more about their futures than some bs blood feud.

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[deleted] t1_ja4mp8d wrote

Israel has the jobs and investments and that hasn't stopped them from wanting to execute their version of manifest destiny, and I don't think anyone will be investing in Palestine knowing that whatever they build will be bombed eventually

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magellan315 t1_ja5x9yc wrote

Israel has faced repeated wars instigated by the Arab nations as well as terrorist attacks funded by those same nations. After the 1967 War Israel made an offer to return land in exchange for peace. The Arab response was 9 Arab nations met in Khartoum and declared that there would be no peace.

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[deleted] t1_ja5xh4u wrote

How does any of that force them to build illegal settlements in the sovereign land of another country

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Ed_Durr t1_ja8jv1o wrote

If you lose an aggressive war, be prepared to lose some of your sovereign land.

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[deleted] t1_jaakb46 wrote

That's certainly one narrative you could push.

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JoeShmoAfro t1_ja7nrt0 wrote

Are you talking about Jordan?

Jordan controlled the West Bank between 48 and 67. So it's Jordan who you must be referring to.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja85pmm wrote

> After the 1967 War Israel made an offer to return land in exchange for peace. The Arab response was 9 Arab nations met in Khartoum and declared that there would be no peace.

You keep posting this as if nothing has changed in the last 56 years.

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magellan315 t1_ja8qmcw wrote

Very little has changed in 56 years. Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and Syria continue to fund terrorists in a proxy war against Israel. The PLO reneged on both the Dayton and Oslo Accords. After turning over Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians, the Palestinians engaged in suicide bombings which led Israel to build a border wall. Palestinian school text books teach children that Jews are subhuman and should be killed.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8r3vk wrote

> After turning over Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians

When was the West Bank ever turned over to the Palestinians. I'm getting the clear sign you'll just sat whatever random bullshit you can if it sounds good in the moment

>Palestinian school text books teach children that Jews are subhuman and should be killed.

Man sounds like good reason not to build settlements outside of your country's sovereign borders and surrounded by Palestinians.

What's the justification for those settlements again? What's the justification for violating international law and annexing territory by force and settling your citizens outside of your sovereign borders

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magellan315 t1_ja8rkr6 wrote

>Man sounds like good reason not to build settlements outside of your country's sovereign borders and surrounded by Palestinians.

Sounds like a good reason not to trust the Palestinians, especially after the failure of the Oslo and Dayton Accords.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8s4yx wrote

Again,

If you don't trust them why are you building settlements outside your state's sovereign borders, surrounded by them, and in violation of international law.

>What's the justification for those settlements again? What's the justification for violating international law and annexing territory by force and settling your citizens outside of your sovereign borders

Your lack of response is so telling, its like part of you knows there is no justification but you want Israel to have that land for some perverse reason

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magellan315 t1_ja8spi5 wrote

Territory C,.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8t12p wrote

>Territory C,.

I think its clear you've given up on attempting to make an argument for Israeli's behavior after its been shown to be inconsistent bullshit.

Just say how you really feel, I'm guessing something like "Arabs and Palestinians attacked Israel and Israel has every right to do whatever it wants in the West Bank regardless what the people living there before their occupation want"

Just say it

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magellan315 t1_ja8ty6d wrote

Israel faces constant terrorist attacks they are making sure that all of its citizens are safe. I think you're making excuses for the Palestinians inconsistent bullshit and those of its Arab allies who fund terrorism.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8us2j wrote

> Israel faces constant terrorist attacks they are making sure that all of its citizens are safe.

If they wanted to keep them safe, why are they allowing and encouraging them to settle outside Israeli's sovereign borders, beyond the security wall, and in very vulnerable locations?

>I think you're making excuses for the Palestinians inconsistent bullshit and those of its Arab allies who fund terrorism.

Oh the Palestinian authority government is an absolute disaster for the Palestinian people, and the funding of terrorism isn't helpful for anyone and certainly won't get Israel to withdraw from its illegally occupied territory.

Israel cannot be defeated militarily and its pointless and counter productive to try. Palestinians would be better served by following examples like Gandhi or Mandela in winning justice.

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magellan315 t1_ja8xuhx wrote

If any Palestinian tried to emulate Gandhi, Mandela, or Martin Luther King, Jr they would be dead in 30 days at the hands of their own people who have been believe that the only solution is the destruction of Israel. The same goes for Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8y7dz wrote

It is unfortunate that too many people on both sides believe the only way to resolve this is to destroy and kill the other

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magellan315 t1_ja91t6q wrote

It is a problem that the Palestinians and their Arab supporters feel that destroying Israel in spite of land for peace deals and the Oslo and Dayton Accords.

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waiv t1_ja5zm64 wrote

It's silly trying to portray Israel as a poor victim when they have dished as much as they have received, the 1956 and 1967 wars were started by Israel, plenty of incursions against Gaza and the West Bank before 1967, including blowing up whole towns and attacking the Jordanian army when the Jordanian King was on peace talks with Israel.

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magellan315 t1_ja7zn3v wrote

The 1967 War was due to the fact that multiple Arab countries were massing soldiers, air planes, and tanks near the Israeli border in battle formations, should they have waited to be attacked first? The peace talks through the U.N. failed and allowed the Arabs to stall for time.

Then of course there is the 1973, 6 day war, where the Arabs attacked on the most sacred day of the Jewish religion.

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waiv t1_ja8ifux wrote

Well, according to the American and Israeli intelligence back then Nasser wasn't going to take offensive action against Israel. There were no UN peace talks, there were going to be peace talks in Washington but the IDF attacked one day before the Egyptian envoy arrived.

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magellan315 t1_ja8n9n6 wrote

Nasser mobilized the Egyptian military, ordered U.N. Peacekeepers out of the Egypt, and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships. The closing of the Straits of Tiran was declared by President Lyndon Johnson to be "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other, it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed."

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waiv t1_ja8v4se wrote

Yeah, same peacekeepers who offered to be relocated on the Israel side of the border but were refused, if the Israeli government was really worried about Nasser attacking, why didn't they allow them to take new positions?

Meh, they were worse causus belli before and cooler heads prevailed, for instance the IDF invaded Jordan, destroyed a jordanian town and attacked their army in 1966 and that didn't led to war.

It's not like the blockade of a port that was barely used back then required an urgent action without resorting to diplomacy.

Anyway, seems silly to blame the Arab countries for all the wars when clearly Israel started at least half of them.

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magellan315 t1_ja8wh29 wrote

U.N. Peacekeepers are lightly armed and would have done nothing to stop the Egyptian military which was already massing on the border. In 1956 Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships. Egypt hadn't learned its lesson the last time.

Jordan had been a base of operations for the PLO who was engaging in terrorist attacks. The Israeli's sent a message to both parties about what would not be tolerated.

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waiv t1_ja8yc67 wrote

If by message you meant "war crime" and act of war, sure.

In the end Israel went Pearl Harbour against Egypt and then lied claiming they were attacked first, and since that didn't stick they started the narrative of "preemptive war".

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magellan315 t1_ja91eq8 wrote

The Arabs were led by their noses by the Russians who claimed Israel massing their military to attack the Arabs. The Arabs failed to do due diligence and double check. Unlike Pearl Harbor America was not preparing for war against Japan. The Arabs were in battle formations because they were going to attack. Should the Israeli's have waited for an impending attack.

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waiv t1_jacbfon wrote

So Egypt moved to the border not because they intended to attack Israel but because they thought Israel was going to attack Syria? Thanks for explaining, even less reasons to justify the Israeli attack.

Were they even in "battle formations"? They had been stationed there for three weeks doing nothing when Israel attacked treacherously.

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magellan315 t1_jacv60w wrote

Egypt failed to verify the information they had and yes the Arab troops were in battle formation. Are you saying Israel should have waited to be attacked by three large armies?

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victorfiction t1_ja4n6pp wrote

Israel doing this alone ain’t enough. Needs to be a global effort — we all have an investment in seeing this region find a path forward. Religion is such a toxic man-made creation.

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starmartyr t1_ja4ynfb wrote

It isn't really a religious conflict. There are two groups fighting over the same piece of land. The groups are identified by different religions but they aren't fighting over religion. A similar conflict was The Troubles in Ireland. It was Catholics against Protestants but they weren't fighting about religion.

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freshgeardude t1_ja98xoc wrote

To say religion plays no part in this conflict is hilarious. Palestinians, and Muslims in general, believe Palestine is holy Muslim land. It's exactly why jews can't pray at their holiest religious site (the temple mount). It's Palestinian rejection of a Jewish state on any of the land.

Jews can't live in areas controlled by the PA..

If this had no religious component, this conflict would have ended a while ago.

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HelliswhereIwannabe t1_ja5cfut wrote

There are plenty of secular motivations behind the actions of both sides. Blaming religion just obfuscates that fact.

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victorfiction t1_ja5kb9f wrote

The religion is further radicalizing the folks who are doing the violence, compounding the issue with a more aggressive and virulent ideology. It allows them to dehumanize MUCH easier than just some land dispute.

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[deleted] t1_ja4nd60 wrote

Who is going to invest in Palestine?

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victorfiction t1_ja4nwc2 wrote

Same nations investing in Ukraine.

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[deleted] t1_ja4o730 wrote

Ukraine was a stable country before the war with Russia and will be stable after the war with Russia is over. Palestine barely has a government.

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magellan315 t1_ja5xn01 wrote

How about the oil rich Arab nations invest in the Palestinians first, up to know they only invest in Palestinian terrorists.

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Ed_Durr t1_ja8jnoy wrote

That would be nice. Now what’s your plan to make them do it?

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magellan315 t1_ja8pejz wrote

The Arab nations have always been selfish when it comes to the Palestinians. When jews fled or were forced out of Europe and the Middle East Israel took them in a gave the support and citizenship. The only thing the Arabs have done is use the Palestinians to fight a proxy war. Palestinians who live in Arab countries are treated like second class citizens and cannot obtain citizenship even if they are born in one.

If the Arab nations truly want to want to help the Palestinians they need to step up and help cleanup the mess they made. It should not be done by Western countries alone.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja4zryc wrote

> Only thing that will fix this is good paying jobs and investment in the region so people care more about their futures than some bs blood feud.

The conflict is about LAND who owns it and who governs it. Right now there are large overlapping claims of not only sovereignty between Israel and the Palestinian Authority (not to mention Israel doesn't recognize a state of Palestine) but personal property claims dating back decades. Families who fled their homes or were forcibly removed decades ago in what's now part of Israel wants the right to return to that land and live on it. Problem is that as far as Israel is concerned that land is owned by someone else.

Peace isn't happening because Israel and the Palestinian Authority cannot agree on what land is is part of what country (or again if Palestine even is a country). And this already complex problem is being made even harder by Israel settling it's citizens on land which is undeniably not part of Israel and that Palestinians want for a future land. But of course other Palestinian groups like Hamas in Gaza don't recognize Israel's border either.

But ultimately this is about LAND not religion or blood fueds or whatever it's about who owns what land

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magellan315 t1_ja5y2cy wrote

Peace isn't occurring because of the Khartoum Conference in 1967 where 9 Arab nations declared there would be no peace with Israel and have been funding terrorists ever since.

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burningphoenix77888 t1_ja6q7mz wrote

Peace isn’t occurring because Israel has refused the PA’s offer for a 2SS on the pre1967 borders.

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magellan315 t1_ja7x46r wrote

The 1949 borders are indefensible. At one point the border is only 9.5 miles to the ocean it would take very little to cut Israel in half and then be destroyed. In the lead up to the 1967 war Egypt, Jordan, and Syria were massing tanks, airplanes, and soldiers in battle formations. Should Israel have waited to be attacked. They captured land during a war, why should they give it up?

The PA has reneged on both the Oslo and Dayton Accords, they can't be trusted.

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try_another8 t1_ja8ch4n wrote

Why should Israel give back land they got in a defensive war? Don't wanna lose land? don't start a war

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freshgeardude t1_ja99faf wrote

Pretending this conflict could easily be solved over a specific line isn't reasonable, especially when the other side can go back in time and find an equally valid reasoning... But.... Only one side has regretted they should have accepted the 1947 Partition plan.

And before then, it was the British mandate and ottoman control.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-israel-abbas/abbas-faults-arab-refusal-of-1947-u-n-palestine-plan-idUSTRE79R64320111028

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MeatsimPD t1_ja6bznr wrote

>Peace isn't occurring because of the Khartoum Conference in 1967 where 9 Arab nations declared there would be no peace

You're ignoring two facts 1) many of the states represented at this conference don't have the same governments.today they had 1967 and have subsequently signed peace treaties with Israel and 2) nothing you said says anything to do with that I said

Bonus third fact) annexing territory through conquest without the consent of the people living there is illegal under international law, and settling your citizens outside of your own territory is also illegal under international law

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magellan315 t1_ja7y98x wrote

  1. Many of those states don't have the same leadership, but they still have the beliefs and politics.
  2. Which of those countries have signed treaties with Israel?
  3. During the War of Independence the Arabs captured land without permission, should they have returned it to Israel?
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MeatsimPD t1_ja86pa0 wrote

> Which of those countries have signed treaties with Israel?

Egypt and Jordan. Why are you asking me questions about basic facts? You're tacitly admitting your opinion is uninformed if you don't know this.

>During the War of Independence the Arabs captured land without permission, should they have returned it to Israel?

I don't know what you're talking about. Israel has control of all territory it controlled at the start of the 1948 war

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magellan315 t1_ja8jeri wrote

You made vague assertions about peace treaties. Anwar Sadat was killed by his own military for making peace with Israel. Jordan was weak and ineffective following their losses in 1967 and had to deal with the PLO in 1970, more commonly known as Black September. They also did not come to terms with Israel until 1994.

Meanwhile the major players; Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, and several others continue to funding terrorists. Even to this day.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8l82b wrote

What does any of this have to do with the occupation of the West Bank? Israel's security situation is more secure than it has ever been. What further security justification is there for occupying the West Bank? What justification is there for settling Israelis citizens there?

For God's sake if they are so concerned about terrorism than why are they settling their citizens outside of their sovereign territory in the West Bank and the Golan Heights let's not forget that either

What about any of this changes the fact that annexation of territory through conquest is illegal as is settling your citizens outside of your borders in such land.

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magellan315 t1_ja8nwca wrote

If territory by conquest is illegal, then why didn't the Arabs return the land they captured in the 1948 War of Independence? The only reason Israel's security is better than ever is because they have defeated the combined Arab armies in multiple wars.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8osre wrote

> If territory by conquest is illegal, then why didn't the Arabs return the land they captured in the 1948 War of Independence

Bro what land? Israel controls all the territory it held in 1948. What land do you want them to return?

>. What further security justification is there for occupying the West Bank? What justification is there for settling Israelis citizens there

You're not answering the question

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magellan315 t1_ja8qro2 wrote

East Jerusalem.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8rv7p wrote

East Jerusalem was never part of the State of Israel post 1948 but has been de-facto annexed by Israel since 1967.

>What further security justification is there for occupying the West Bank? What justification is there for settling Israelis citizens there

Still aren't answering the question, come on dude give me your justification for the conquest of the West Bank

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magellan315 t1_ja8td4t wrote

Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel East and West. Furthermore when Jordan controlled East Jerusalem they denied Israeli citizens access to the Western Wall. Any tourists who entered from Israel could not reenter Israel.

As for the West Bank, when the Palestinians love their children as much as they hate Israel then they will have control over the West Bank.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8twsl wrote

> Jerusalem has always been the capital of Israel East and West.

I mean... I understand that people feel that way but its not the truth of the matter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem

> Furthermore when Jordan controlled East Jerusalem they denied Israeli citizens access to the Western Wall. Any tourists who entered from Israel could not reenter Israel.

Which was obviously wrong but in no way justifies the occupation of the West Bank, settling Israeli Citizens in the West Bank, or annexing territory through force.

>As for the West Bank, when the Palestinians love their children as much as they hate Israel then they will have control over the West Bank.

This is some shit

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magellan315 t1_ja8vcdi wrote

The U.N. is a joke when it comes to Israel, remember when the Arabs and their allies passed a resolution equating Zionism with Racism. There is a joke about how the U.N. closes on Christian and Muslim holidays and on Jewish they pass a resolution against Israel.

As for your using a GIF instead of using your words, you just proved you are just another basement dwellers. The Palestinians dance in the streets after Jews are killed and make the terrorists hero's. When they love their children this practice will end, instead they teach them to kill

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8wna7 wrote

You've reached the point where you're basically saying international law doesn't matter, is that correct?

>The Palestinians dance in the streets after Jews are killed and make the terrorists hero's. When they love their children this practice will end, instead they teach them to kill

Lets not pretend that Israeli settlers and soldiers aren't guilty of killing innocent people, that they don't celebrate terrorists, or that they don't literally dance in the street when hearing about violence

There's no moral high-ground when it comes to violence here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

>What further security justification is there for occupying the West Bank? What justification is there for settling Israelis citizens there

Still aren't answering my question. Its such a simple question too, why are you so afraid to give a direct answer?

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magellan315 t1_ja8x2v7 wrote

It is used as a base of for terrorists.

Your nothing more than an Arab apologist.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja8y3gf wrote

> It is used as a base of for terrorists.

Then why settle your citizens there?!?!?

>Your nothing more than an Arab apologist.

An Arab apologist? Not a terrorist apologist? I think the mask is slipping off.

Do you think Arabs should be allowed to live in Israel or the West Bank?

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magellan315 t1_ja9292e wrote

Arabs do live in Israel and full rights and citizenship, they make up 20% of the population. You can be an Arab apologist and a terrorist supporter, which you are.

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MeatsimPD t1_ja92mob wrote

But you seem to have a problem with terrorists AND Arabs.

And you still are not answering my question.

>What further security justification is there for occupying the West Bank? What justification is there for settling Israelis citizens there

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magellan315 t1_ja9xxxe wrote

I have a problem with terrorists and the Arab nations/individuals who provide aid and comfort to terrorists. I have a problem with the Arab governments who have repeatedly attacked Israel and have pledged they will not recognize or make peace with Israel. It was the Arabs who created the situation that has been continued to this day.

As far as the West Bank goes I could care less about what the Palestinians want. They reneged on the Oslo and Dayton Accords and have engaged in terrorism instead of trying to create a nation of their own with the land they have.

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Megaloman71 t1_ja52vb5 wrote

If the general public in Israel stopped kowtowing to the religious radicals it would be a good start.

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BrownMan65 t1_ja51kz7 wrote

Only thing that will fix it is actually allowing the Palestinians that are being held like prisoners throughout the area to return to their homes. Throwing jobs at people who are already being treated worse than animals by Israelis is not going to fix any issue.

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GenShermansGhost t1_ja6d3wc wrote

> allowing the Palestinians that are being held like prisoners throughout the area to return to their homes

That ship sailed when the Arab world ethnically cleansed their own Jewish populations. At this point, demanding the right-of-return is demanding the enforcement of a double-standard where the Arabs are allowed to remove Jews from their lands, but not vice-versa.

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[deleted] t1_ja5xtk1 wrote

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[deleted] t1_ja60gtb wrote

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GenShermansGhost t1_ja6db38 wrote

> , as determined by the UN itself.

The Arab world holds outsized influence among the UN, and the body has displayed gross bias against Israel in the past; it has issued more resolutions condemning Israel than against all other countries combined, despite there being far worse countries out there than Israel.

> On top of that, there is a very clear disparity in the deaths that are caused by Palestinians and those caused by Israelis.

There's a reason for that and that's a pisspoor argument.

> Palestinians are completely in the right to fight back and if there are Israeli civilian deaths then that should be considered caused by the Israeli government.

You're either a lunatic or bloodthirsty.

> They have pushed Palestinians to react this way.

Pretty sure Israel didn't push the Arabs to attack them in 1948 with the stated goal of "pushing the Jews into the sea"

> Israel does not get to take everything from these people and then cry when they fight back and kill them.

These people are getting a far lesser version what their ancestors attempted to do to the Israelis.

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VercettiEstates t1_ja6aup2 wrote

Which Ukrainian soldiers are killing Russian civilians on purpose?

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burningphoenix77888 t1_ja6q3if wrote

It isn’t terrorism to fight occupation. It is called guerrilla warfare. They are partisans. Not “terrorists”

So yes. It does include them.

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chyko9 t1_ja6r7a2 wrote

Palestinian militants view all of Israel as “the occupation”. They believe all Israeli land is “occupied territory” that must be “liberated”. Do you understand this and not care, or do you not understand that their goal is not merely the “liberation” of the West Bank, but the destruction of Israel itself?

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[deleted] t1_ja6s2pf wrote

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chyko9 t1_ja6tqi7 wrote

Palestine doesn’t have a “leader”. It’s “leadership” is made up of shifting coalitions of militant groups, with varying degrees of fundamentalism and political objectives of varying maximalism. Because of this, Abbas’ opinion isn’t actually indicative of if the militant groups that constitute the Palestinian leadership want themselves.

So, we have to turn to actions, because they speak louder than words. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, which is the only data point we have with which to predict what would happen if Israel withdrew from the West Bank as well.

What ended up happening? Israel got rocket attacks and cross border raids in response, precisely because the militant groups that truly constitute the Palestinian leadership don’t actually share Abbas’ surface-level statement that the 1967 borders are legitimate. Abbas probably doesn’t even believe it himself.

The truth is that Israel could withdraw to the 1967 or even the 1948 borders and the vast majority of Palestinian militants would only view it as “partial success”.

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burningphoenix77888 t1_ja6q0pv wrote

Palestine will end financial support to families of partisans when Israel stops persecuting families of partisans

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[deleted] t1_ja6rd1n wrote

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[deleted] t1_ja6s0wj wrote

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chyko9 t1_ja6tuws wrote

Schools with rockets and other weapons in them? I call it the predictable reaction of a nation state that has its population come under unguided missile barrages.

If Israel were the United States and Gaza was Tijuana, Tijuana would be a parking lot right now.

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[deleted] t1_ja6qggl wrote

If it was just partisans and not people who bomb bus stops then I wouldn't criticize them on the subject nearly as heavily. I don't care what's going on, deliberate terrorist attacks on civilians is never justifiable and no sane, responsible government would ever condone those activities.

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JoeShmoAfro t1_ja7nyiv wrote

Old mate buriningpheonix is a terrorist sympathiser, who supports the murder of innocent civilians.

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[deleted] t1_ja6qxc2 wrote

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[deleted] t1_ja6r6fd wrote

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chyko9 t1_ja6ss6t wrote

That user believes all of Israel is “occupied land” that must be “liberated”, and that all Israelis are “colonizers”. In other words, that user does not view them as civilians, but as legitimate targets.

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[deleted] t1_ja6t0x6 wrote

Look, I can see that position as arguable. I don't agree, but there's at least half a leg to stand on. But even IF I grant for the sake of argument that everyone who isn't a descendant of residents who were present at the Ottoman census are occupiers or whatever, that STILL would not justify terrorism against civilians.

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