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[deleted] t1_iqydabr wrote

[removed]

326

MSWMan t1_iqykf55 wrote

It'll probably be about as effective as banning drugs, which means:

  • They'll still available to many people, but some people without connections will not have access.
  • The available options will carry higher health risks than their legal counterparts.
  • Using the illegal options jeopardizes your freedom.
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meatball77 t1_ir2692g wrote

The horrifying piece of these bills is that the people who will suffer the most are those who have wanted pregnancies who end up in the hospital in crisis.

Those who want an abortion will be able to get out of state or get abortion pills. But if you are stuck bleeding to death in the hospital you can't take care of it on your own.

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ErikTheAngry t1_ir275zu wrote

You say that as though forced birthers don't see each of those as absolute wins.

People without connections are now not having abortions. That's a win to them. They'll probably stop trying there because poor people are easy targets, wealthy people are not.

Higher risks is effectively just "you deserve it if something goes wrong". They're absolutely going to be extremely pleased to see a woman eat shit for trying to have an abortion. Most of them won't even consider the impact to the fetus they're so intent on trying to save.

Same as above, poor people are easy targets. Rich people can afford lawyers. Just another way to help keep certain people under your shoe.

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MSWMan t1_ir35z79 wrote

Actually, no, I did not imply anything of the kind. You seem to be spoiling for a fight and, if so, you're knocking at the wrong door.

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ErikTheAngry t1_ir3szj3 wrote

No, not spoiling for a fight. Just lamenting that all these things that most of us would consider drawbacks, the forced birthers consider perks.

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jane_webb t1_ir2yfa6 wrote

Kind of -- abortion pills by mail are actually very safe and relatively straightforward to access (though knowledge and $$$ can be barriers.) The last one is the biggest concern imo. Plan C Pills is a great resource on this!

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MSWMan t1_ir3a1p6 wrote

I take your point for the pharmaceuticals, although access to proper medical procedures and care (especially emergency care) will be inaccessible without interstate travel or less safe, illegal local procedures. I think where this analogy breaks down is that these pharmaceuticals are federally legal, so they can be legally shipped interstate.

But this does remind me of another (coincidentally drug-related) case from a few years ago involving a friend of mine. He tried to order psychedelic mushroom spores, but he was living in one of three states where possession of those spores was illegal. None of the online retailers would ship to him, so he had to travel to a neighboring state and set up a PO Box just to get them shipped. This makes me think that you'll see similar restrictions trying to order plan c in these backwards states. Also, plan c requires a doctor's prescription. I imagine soon it'll be a crime for doctors to prescribe it.

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jane_webb t1_ir3gh3n wrote

The Plan C site gets into a lot of this -- it's generally already a crime for doctors in restricted states to prescribe mifepristone and misoprostol (the two drugs needed for medication abortion) for most elective abortions. Folks have reported having success with something similar to what your friend did, but for abortion pills -- using a legal U.S. telemedicine service and picking up in another state. I'm would guess there will be attempts to try to legally restrict that kind of travel/PO Box situation in the future, though!

Another resource that Plan C lists is Aid Access, which has a Dutch doctor write prescriptions that are then sent to an Indian pharmacy and then to the U.S.. Plan C also lists some sites in their directory that don't require a prescription, as well. None of this comes without legal risks but it's often a gray area -- just acquiring pills isn't generally a crime (right now) in and of itself, and USPS says they won't proactively intervene.

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[deleted] t1_iqywnc0 wrote

[deleted]

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MSWMan t1_iqywv2u wrote

There are states where marijuana is fully legal on demand that you can go to.

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torpedoguy t1_iqz3wko wrote

Except you don't need heroin to not-die, and heroin is fully legal in all states if you're rich enough or an "elected" member of the GQP in good standing with the party.

Just like abortion where it's banned save for that first part.

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VentureQuotes t1_iqz5tb3 wrote

> Except you don't need heroin to not-die

ehhh idk, tell that to people addicted to opiods

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Dretard t1_iqz947j wrote

Former addict, DT's will not kill you. You'll wanna die, but it just punishes you.

Alcohol and benzos on the other hand can absolutely kill you when coming off.

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VentureQuotes t1_iqz9f0c wrote

> You'll wanna die

guess what people do when they want to die

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Dretard t1_iqzab5w wrote

If they're actively trying to get off I'd wager their will to live is far stronger than you'd think. Regardless that wasn't the inference in your post.

Withdrawals aren't all that long.

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Dretard t1_iqz8yt6 wrote

Decriminalization is in no way shape or form the drug being "legal" and certainly not able to be sold.

There aren't any states giving out opiates recreationally.

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TopNFalvors t1_iqyoqmb wrote

What if the US turns into a hardline Christian Theocracy? I know it seems far fetched but just look at what has happened in the past 2 years

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Randomcheeseslices t1_iqztu5m wrote

Look to what is happening in Iran, then look at what Iran looked like in the 70s.

Not far fetched at all, and a good reason to get active, and make changes

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Alilatias t1_iqzv3lc wrote

Some people say this will never happen, but as long as blowhards who are trying to chip away at the fabric of our society keep getting elected into positions of power, the threat will continue to exist.

I keep being reminded of Iran's current struggles, and the conditions that led to it. The people who fled Iran after their so-called revolution would tell us of how the cities used to be extremely progressive by the standards of the nations in the region, and we see pictures of women not having to hide their humanity taken lifetimes ago. But what seems to get lost in that explanation is that the rural areas were still full of extremist nutjobs, and they took complete power under the guise of ending corruption and wrecked everything. And now the Iranians have to take to the streets trying to reverse that, protesting for the right for their women to be treated with decency.

What happened to Iran should be taken as a warning to us. We did barely avoid an attempted coup, after all. One could also argue that the Supreme Court itself is an attempted coup in progress at the judicial level too.

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logicalfallacy234 t1_ir2dlhq wrote

Have spent the last year and a half working on an epic play about the Revolution! And what motivated/is behind both the 1979 Revolution, and the current world's falling back to religion.

I do think the Iranian mullahs, and most religious people even, do have a case for a faith-based life, rather than a purely empirical evidence based on.

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Alilatias t1_ir2fdn9 wrote

Definitely, there is nothing wrong with a faith-based life. It's when it crosses the line into being used as a bludgeon to justify taking away the rights of your fellow human beings that it basically transforms into something else entirely.

Religion seeks out power, perhaps as a means for the faith to survive. But we've seen that there's also a point where that same power can corrupt, and attract followers to the religion that aren't seeking the actual faith, but the influence it wields.

Indeed, I'm not sure the most powerful Christians in America holding public office or the courts even believe in the faith at all, and are just appealing to the extremists as a means to retain their power.

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logicalfallacy234 t1_ir2har0 wrote

Yup! My understanding is that for a lot of faith based people, they feel the only real way to bring that faith into the world is through politics. To them, the separation of church and state is a non-sequitur.

The Islamist philosopher Sayyid Qutab (who influenced a half century now of radical Islamism) felt that that idea of separation of the material and spiritual worlds agreed on in Ancient Greece is the central mistake of the Western world, that has caused all of its suffering. The way around that suffering IS making church and state one and the same.

I feel like a lot the modern radical Christian movement in America has arrived at that same thought, albeit usually less well-articulated, and aided by good old, Roman Empire style imperialism and racism.

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FlaxxSeed t1_ir2tsp6 wrote

The problem is when their sexuality is attached to the religion, example, marriage. They are in the death cult and their brain's reward synapses are attached to the cult. There is no going back they are destroyed and should be viewed as such, like you would perminate brain damage.

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CyberGrandma69 t1_iqywsm1 wrote

Handmaid's Tale is lookin a little more like a playbook every day

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TopNFalvors t1_iqyxxu6 wrote

What’s that?

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techleopard t1_iqz3amt wrote

If you're not into reading, Handmaid's Tale is also streaming on Hulu, I believe.

The Christian fascist country founded after America is overthrown is called Gilead. That's why you may see a growing number of references to Gilead as the abortion rights fight continues.

There's a subreddit where people can report how the state bans have been affecting them in ways that are creepily similar to the Handmaid's Tale, such as cancer drugs being denied to women because "childbearing age." /r/WelcomeToGilead/

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bicameral_mind t1_ir1gtb2 wrote

The best part is that they cease control of the country by bombing congress as a false flag attack. Hmm, who else recently tried to attack congress?

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CyberGrandma69 t1_iqyytjl wrote

A book by Margaret Atwood about life in a dystopian (lookin probable) future where America is overthrown and run by patriarchal Christian Fascists and women are forced into subhuman categories. There is a TV series that is also really well done even if it is agonizing to watch.

Unfortunately within the book are many stories that have truly happened to women. Margaret Atwood made sure to include things that have and do happen in the name of mysoginy, racism, homophobia... and when you see those stories you recognize them as real and really happening around you to some degree and that's what is so scary about it... she didn't just write about things that could happen but things that do happen :(

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drawkbox t1_iqz3yfa wrote

Never gonna happen, more people are not religious now than most of US history. This is a last roar of a fading cult.

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TopNFalvors t1_iqz4edu wrote

I hope you are right. But our very conservative Supreme Court can do a lot of damage and unravel 50+ years of our progressive democracy in a short amount of time.

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drawkbox t1_iqz5h0w wrote

It is just causing the backlash to happen quicker. Lots of flailing and failing.

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Archmage_of_Detroit t1_iqzdlkk wrote

OK, but what happens when society is apathetic and the cult is full of hardline zealots?

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civemaybe t1_ir0kfr6 wrote

Radical, tyrannical minorities overthrow democracies all the time.

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tasslehawf t1_ir0xtmb wrote

The people in power do not represent us, but have cemented their ability to get reelected by their minority.

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discogeek t1_iqzy90p wrote

Roe, Roe, Roe your vote.

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civemaybe t1_ir0kkco wrote

You need to put that on a t-shirt.

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discogeek t1_ir1kg7e wrote

Already have one! Wearing it to my MAGA-rich voting precinct on Election Day.

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Amiiboid t1_ir1r3s0 wrote

Careful you don’t get kicked out for engaging in campaigning too close to a polling place, though.

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discogeek t1_ir20e34 wrote

Thanks. You're allowed to even wear campaign clothing in Pennsylvania. This isn't specific to any campaign and doesn't *ask* anyone to vote, so it's legal. Appreciate the concern for sure! (And I know the county Democratic Party lawyer on duty for Election Day problems, already let her know about my clothing option - she said she's probably going to get one too!)

https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/resources/voting/

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Morat20 t1_ir0pi92 wrote

Have you seen church attendance figures? They've gone even more nuts than normal because it's falling so fast.

Only a subset of American Christians would actually be in favor of this ultra-right theocratic nonsense. They're loud as fuck, but they're not actually that big.

And bluntly, most of them are in their last decade or so of life.

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HardlyDecent t1_ir22im8 wrote

I'm inclined to agree. I think this is more the last ditch, violent death throes of religion as a thing to revere. I mean, we've been to the Heavens. We can basically all read and have the internet (first world at least). There's simply no more need for fairy tales to explain the unknown or shape our behavior.

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logicalfallacy234 t1_ir2e4e7 wrote

Unfortunately, I do think the rest of the 21st century will be about a return to faith for many people, given the grim predictions for the century. Simply put, it's hard for humans to survive not believing in anything. It seems there's a need to have faith in something you can't prove. Empiricism seems to have its limits. Which is something the mullahs of Iran do understand, unfortunately.

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meatball77 t1_ir278ax wrote

I wonder what the point would be that would have the north and western states pulling away from the south. What happens if they get enough states to hold a constitutional convention (their next plan), we're facing real minority rule in this country and it's terrifying.

I wonder what kind of America these people want. Is it one that is filled with work camps filled with people they have deemed to be criminals?

0

emaw63 t1_iqz0odn wrote

Oh no, it’s worse than the 50’s, because we live in a total digital surveillance state in which anonymity is borderline impossible to achieve

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duckofdeath87 t1_iqzmme8 wrote

My grandmother was a nurse in a Catholic hospital in the 50s in the rural south. They just wrote that the fetus was actually a monster. Apparently that was enough to make it legal somehow

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prolixdreams t1_ir39i87 wrote

Whenever someone writes a "heartbeat bill" all I can think is that the statistics for fetuses with no heartbeat are going to get massively distorted...

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maw6495 t1_iqz87zn wrote

Yup dyiabortion describes how to order them yourselves.

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julianriv t1_iqyt3j6 wrote

“The plan for abortion pills shows a stunning disregard for the health and well-being of the mother,” Herrod said.

Uhhh no your law is a stunning disregard for the health and well-being of the woman.

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--redacted-- t1_iqyak8h wrote

You shouldn't have to jump through this many hoops to have agency over your own body, but I do appreciate the creative thinking.

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Your_Trash_Daddy t1_iqyg4du wrote

Meanwhile, once again having projection as their only means of communication, the right is trying to cast this as degrading women's health. I'm pretty sure the only procedure the right wing will ever actually approve for women would be trappanning.

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Basic_Bichette t1_iqymiw6 wrote

You forgot rape. They're always 100% in favour of rape, as long as the perpetrator is a conservative white man.

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torpedoguy t1_iqz49zx wrote

That's what happens when people naively think just "trying to get around" those who would call themselves your master; those who would deprive you of all liberty. Desperately deluding themselves that 'jumping through every hoop' they add will somehow be enough to get your freedom back no matter how many of those avenues get dead-ended soon after they get found, no matter how hard they punish and hurt you whenever you think you've jumped through them all this time.

All those hoops - and soon far more - are there because people refuse to strike the root of the problem: that assholes aren't punished when they try to deprive all others of their rights.

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TotallyHumanPerson t1_iqyxl9n wrote

There is a movement to rebrand them as "period pills", so rather than a discussion about terminating a pregnancy, it becomes a conversation about bringing back a late period without necessitating a pregnancy test.

The Invisibilia podcast covered this topic in a recent episode.

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DeweyDecimator020 t1_ir0nfpz wrote

That's interesting because throughout history abortifacients had polite and coded language as medicine to restore the menses.

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usrevenge t1_iqznzie wrote

It's going to be even better if they allow abortion pills or plan B to be birth control itself.

They are just going to piss people off with these anti abortion laws. It's already pushed some states to be a bit more blue as it affects others it's going to get worse for them.

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ActiveLlama t1_ir2gh4b wrote

In countries were abortion is illegal, like mine, abortion is usually announced as treatment for menstrual delay.

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VegasKL t1_ir2x11w wrote

The right won't care, they want to come for contraception next and anything related to birth control.

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ObligatoryOption t1_iqyeoyz wrote

> “The plan for abortion pills shows a stunning disregard for the health and well-being of the mother,” Herrod said.

If only Arizona could find a way for women to access the service safely... I guess it can't be done.

> “I’m not surprised that the abortion industry would care more about their bottom line and about selling pills than they would about taking care of women still,” she said.

Because they're making a fortune with these pills? Or because they are not providing the service Arizona women need but are denied?

Shut up Herrod.

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EmeraldHawk t1_iqyp7w0 wrote

Every article with one of these BS claims needs to immediately point out how safe the pills are. This kind of "both sides" journalism is extremely irresponsible. It is FAR safer for the mother to take an abortion pill than carry a baby to term.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/

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fiftyeleventimes t1_iqzl7iy wrote

Yep. They're not even charging for the pills. But, facts don't matter to some folks.

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Natronix t1_ir1hb8u wrote

God fucking dammit. It's both incredibly hilarious and and infuriating when right wing demagogues engage in left wing populism for their dumbfuck reactionary policies/beliefs.

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meatball77 t1_ir27wop wrote

Arizona lawmakers show a stunning disregard for the health of the woman. They completely ignore how dangerous pregnancy is. Act like doctors and women are being hysterical when we talk about the danger of pregnancy and they want to make it worse.

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reganomics t1_iqyakjn wrote

Fuck you Supreme Court and you AZ in particular, except for you prochoice advocates, you're cool

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LostMyKarmaElSegundo t1_ir1s5q4 wrote

I recently moved to AZ. So it's slightly bluer because of me. You're welcome! 😜

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SocialDistanceMedia t1_ir23lyf wrote

Also fairly new to AZ and plan to make it a little more blue this November. Anecdotally, when I was house shopping last year, real estate agents were saying they were getting a lot of people (like myself) coming from Washington and Oregon. I am hoping Arizona keeps moving from red to purple to blue. It's a wonderful state and needs sane leadership.

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LostMyKarmaElSegundo t1_ir25n6m wrote

> It's a wonderful state and needs sane leadership.

Agreed. I'm worried about the governor's race though. Nothing but crazies on the other side.

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Medical_Season3979 t1_iqyn41z wrote

Man, it's crazy that I lived in AZ and Ohio and they just so happened to get on the abortion and birth control train the year after I leave.. that's fate.. honestly, it doesn't surprise me that they'd pull this type of stuff.

Arizona is all full of misogynists and racists, drug epidemics and pimping and exploitation of underage girls and women in general, gang violence, and very corrupt, they treat disabled and elderly like a huge burden, it was legal for cops to racial profile Hispanics while Joe arpaio was sheriff, children's education is the last thing they care about, same with women's safety... even without this crap, there's many reasons even after all I've listed as to why I left.

If you're not a suburban white guy with perfect looks and perfect health, they literally could give two craps if you starve or die in a ditch, you could cry until your face is black and blue and they wouldn't care, they'd laugh and ridicule you. Stay out of Arizona at all costs. Sounds like an exaggeration, but it's not. It's a red state and they take extreme pride in that fact.

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YamburglarHelper t1_ir064bo wrote

>I lived in AZ and Ohio and they just so happened to get on the abortion and birth control train the year after I leave

So... you were the one thing stopping these things from getting through?

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Medical_Season3979 t1_ir0d1ii wrote

Lmao yep, guess they decided I was too powerful to fight so they waited until I left 😂 thought it was quite the coincidence and it made me glad I got out when I did

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thedudesews t1_ir0blcp wrote

Just remember, your republican representative's mistress will always have access to abortions.

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jschubart t1_ir0gxmy wrote

How can they make it illegal to mail them? That is a federal service.

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jadwy916 t1_ir1v0ja wrote

They can't. The pills aren't even being mailed to AZ, and the first pill likely isn't being taken in AZ but in Cali. That's why they're clutching their pearls so hard.

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GWS2004 t1_ir1xjxs wrote

Please remember organizations like this is if/when you're looking for places to donate to.

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sandysea420 t1_ir1du44 wrote

Another good workaround would be to show up and VOTE BLUE!

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sagetraveler t1_ir2poe6 wrote

Serious question - it's Arizona, can abortion clinics set up shop on Indian reservations?

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usrevenge t1_iqznr3q wrote

Why not mail them to their address still.

It's weird that it's ok to have the mail come from India but not the mail from California.

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NoahCharlie t1_ir1bq9d wrote

Abortion cannot be effectively banned anymore.

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Spicy_Lobster_Roll t1_ir6ldpz wrote

The anguish this causes the pregnancy mill subreddit is so delightfully delicious. Once again religious kooks are outflanked by science.

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jane_webb t1_ir2yz53 wrote

This is awesome! Telehealth options for abortion pills and general delivery to a post office like this have been used by other abortion seekers in the U.S. before, Plan C Pills is a great educational resource on this.

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BigClitMcphee t1_ir3ex0s wrote

I assume it works something like "these 2 pills are totally not abortion-causing (on their own) so don't take them together for ANY reason" *wink* It's like back in the Prohibition when people sold dehydrated grape juice cubes with specific instructions to NOT put them in water for 3 days(cuz then they'll become wine).

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jns_reddit_already t1_ir3oa2f wrote

They need to instruct people that in the (hopefully unlikely) event they are stopped by law enforcement when returning to Arizona to state that they do not agree to a search of their vehicle and then invoke their 5th amendment right to remain silent.

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hyperbolic_dichotomy t1_iqz6ykz wrote

Well now that it's on the news they are going to figure out a way to prosecute these women too.

−1

Accomplished_Set_766 t1_ir0blr0 wrote

Yup just like how if you ban guns criminals will still get them, its the same with abortions

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Apotropoxy t1_ir0ilzl wrote

Uh... That's a work around for the tiny % of the population of abortion seekers who can take the pill, have access to transportation, have the freedom to act quickly, have the money to proceed, and are within driving distance to a CA border town that has a participating pharmacy.

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popquizmf t1_ir0wh0r wrote

Maybe you should read the article. Just saying that your points of contention are specifically covered. You're doing the typical redditor thing where you can't be bothered to read before commenting.

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Apotropoxy t1_ir1doai wrote

Wake up. The sorts of people who don't read the article are more likely to read my distillation.

−9

TogepiMain t1_ir1f2dd wrote

Yeah, exactly. And what you said was wrong lol

6