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VyrPlan t1_j13ynft wrote

>Germany’s foreign minister...“It was wrong to steal these bronzes. It was wrong to keep these bronzes and it is long overdue to return these bronzes to their home”

nice to hear a clear admission and actual contrition without the usual equivocation and deflection we've grown to expect

408

Javamac8 t1_j15g277 wrote

When Germany fucks up, they admit it. Eventually.

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Ynwe t1_j16cio9 wrote

Which makes us pretty unique, given how no one else ever seems to admit their past fuck ups

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TwitchyCake t1_j16pzwo wrote

tbf they only admitted Nazism was bad after they got merc'd by the allies

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derpaherpa t1_j17spug wrote

Who exactly, speaking for Germany, was supposed to admit it before that? The Nazi government?

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XxHavanaHoneyxX t1_j17wv1s wrote

Which is why the Brits won’t do the same because they basically got away with imperialism and just slowly deflated economically due to the world wars. Nobody ever really held the British Empire to account for wrong doings. They won and lost battles and wars overseas.

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TroutCreekOkanagan t1_j17oom5 wrote

Still , they legalized weed. So their priorities are on point. Bob Marley would say gotta have Kaya now! I consider Germany and the Germans I have meet to very interesting people, some of which are very kind.

−1

thebadpixel t1_j18h2cp wrote

Good! Those bronzes are literally the history of the country, and by scrambling the order, irreparable harm has already been done.

Now do the British Royal Museum, which has more of them than anyone else.

Photograph them, 3D scan them, make replicas for future study, then give the originals BACK!

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vitico1 t1_j14iw19 wrote

The funny thing is that if they have a replica I'll still go to those museums. It doesn't need to be the original.

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MausBomb t1_j15ae2c wrote

Pretty much everything on display to the general public is a high-quality replica and not the actual piece. Museums keep that shit in secure storage only accessible by researchers with permission.

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EnvironmentalValue18 t1_j15cj8a wrote

Well, they do have a lot of replicas but it depends on how susceptible the object is to degradation and how well they can sustain an environment where that is mitigated. To expound on your point, dinosaur bones are basically all replicas, as you say. Many paintings and several sculptures are indeed originals, however.

There are protective measures in place such as many being taken down and stored overnight, protective glasses to prevent sun damage and finger oils, humidity/moisture control, etc.

A famous case of vandalism was when a visitor took a hammer to the toes of the original David statue by Michaelangelo (di Buonarotti). They’ve been restored as much as is possible, but it was the original that was damaged and is still on view (as is the famous replica statue in his home state, which, as far as I know, has not been vandalized).

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reconrose t1_j1613s8 wrote

Yeah "pretty much everything" is a massive overstatement lol

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[deleted] t1_j17maby wrote

It applies only to dinosaur bones, honestly. I think the dinosaur skeletons displayed in museums are all from castings, and not the actual bones that were dug out of the ground. It definitely does not apply to art pieces, unless it's a small/poor museum which can only get prints or studio replicas, it's clearly labeled as a replica.

Or, some statues exist only as castings, and are all technically 'replicas' and the original was destroyed as part of the casting process.

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CyberGrandma69 t1_j15v313 wrote

Not to mention I'd almost rather people be paying skilled artists and artisans for high quality replicas rather than stealing originals

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onomazein t1_j143k0x wrote

UK: "BRUH!..."

Hopefully this will get the ball rolling and other countries will follow suit

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JesseBricks t1_j15odeu wrote

UK museums in Scotland, Cambridge and London have recently agreed to return Benin Bronzes. Also returns from collections in the US and France. Nigeria have a new museum in the works to house them. The British Museum is still looking the other way. Good to see the tide slowly turning.

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darkhoogan t1_j1665j7 wrote

The british museum has its hand tied. The British museum act 1963 specifically prevents the british museum from returning anything. I see that law unlikely to change with our current government, next general election is in 2 years, so nothing can realistically happen before then.

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Anonymoustard t1_j13hnkb wrote

I'm sure it sounded better in German.

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TheTabman t1_j13j0ru wrote

I think even in English "dunkelsten Vergangenheit/darkest history" does not always has a meaning related to skin colour.

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EsotericAbstractIdea t1_j144nmc wrote

You’re right, but I think we should probably refrain from anything that sounds like it could be referring to color for this one, just to be safe.

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the_noise_we_made t1_j14as6o wrote

I hope you're joking. Dark here is being used as a metaphor and isn't referring to literal color and, more than that, is referring to the dark deeds of the people that did the exploiting which, undoubtedly, were 99.9% if not 100% white.

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EsotericAbstractIdea t1_j14b07x wrote

I am, just like the first person who said it. It’s clearly a homonym though, and somebody is going to take it wrong.

−50

BurnTrees- t1_j14mjgd wrote

So what if somebody takes it wrong? You can say the earth is round and somebody will take it wrong.

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EsotericAbstractIdea t1_j14mudr wrote

Damn, do I really gotta go back and add the /s to my whole thread of replies?

−20

davispw t1_j14o1b3 wrote

If you don’t, then somebody might take them wrong. /s

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bertimann t1_j1508n9 wrote

Yes. People say so much dumb shit on the internet that it is impossible to know you are sarcastic without it. Nobody knows each other and their actual opinions on here

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StateParkMasturbator t1_j14ty9y wrote

Too late. Take the downvotes like a man. Or woman. Or nonbinary. I don't know anymore.

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Its_Singularity_Time t1_j166opp wrote

You could say, "take the downvotes like a human", but that doesn't sound right either. Like it's implying that other species take chagrin to being downvoted.

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SuperOrganizer t1_j156wpx wrote

You might not be aware but the world is full of diverse people. /s

A few don’t even speak English as their first language. /s

At least everyone on the internet only says amazingly sane and stable things in reality so sarcasm is super easy to detect. /s

The established indicator for sarcasm on reddit is “/s” and it is not at all difficult or time-consuming to add. I see many people lately railing against this simple convention on an app where people communicate. It boggles my mind why anyone would argue against a known convention that works to clarify for a known gap in clear and effective communication.

That said, I call BS on your particular case. I don’t detect a hint of sarcasm in your previous posts. You had an unpopular opinion on this one, that’s all.

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bertimann t1_j14zyh0 wrote

Then somebody needs to pull their head out of their ass, because it's obvious what this is supposed to mean and we shouldn't accommodate the one person that tries to be annoying about it

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I_make_things t1_j14o3wb wrote

Ok England, your turn.

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MausBomb t1_j15ashe wrote

Can we compromise and I get the queen's body to display in my garage for a quarter per view?

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Sajun t1_j15i80a wrote

At least she’d start making money for someone other than her family or herself.

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Starblaiz t1_j16pmdr wrote

Actually no, this is Prince Andrew’s account.

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YlangScent t1_j184433 wrote

The royal family is a huge source of income and business for the UK actually. Many countries take a visit from the royals far more serious than a prime minister. That's why they often accompany politicians to get deals done.

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KOBossy55 t1_j13ts6j wrote

Great. It's a start. This type of cultural theft was rampant during Europe's colonization of...well, everywhere.

nudge nudge Hey British museum, your turn next. Give back the fucking Rosetta Stone and Elgin Marbles, among many, many other things.

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cbarrick t1_j141o0x wrote

And while we're at it, let's stop calling them the "Elgin Marbles" and start calling them the "Parthenon Sculptures."

Fuck Lord Elgin.

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BoltgunOnHisHip t1_j14lo4k wrote

"But he bought them legitimately from the government of Greece at the time!"

  1. No, he wrote a letter SAYING he bought them legitimately

  2. The government of Greece at the time was another colonial power

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Nukemind t1_j15b1c1 wrote

The government of Greece at the time wasn’t really a colonial power. It was the Sublime Porte, AKA the Ottoman Empire. It was an Empire in the classical sense. They conquered regions and attempted to rule them as a part of the country, as opposed to forming extraction based economies.

Now that doesn’t make them benevolent- like most empires they were backwards and they were later called the Sick Man of Europe for a reason. But colonialism is actually one of the major reasons the Ottomans declined, as it allowed Europeans to get the resources that traditionally flowed across Asia Minor via sea lanes, and in some cases they even conquered the origin points ending what was their traditionally largest source of income.

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Mr_EZ_sk t1_j140pvj wrote

Why should the Rosetta Stone be returned? It’s obviously not an integral part to Egyptian heritage seeing as it was just lying around before the French dug it up

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Saint_Genghis t1_j143o7b wrote

Yeah let's maybe hold off on the Rosetta Stone, considering Egypt had a revolution not so long ago. The Egyptian Museum was raided in the chaos, and priceless artifacts were destroyed.

Nothing much has really changed for Egypt since the revolution, I'd be wary giving any artifacts back to them until it becomes more stable.

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calmdwnnchill t1_j14ia1l wrote

Lol what kinda mentality is this, “yea we stole it and have no morale/humane standard, but we will you ppl are civilized to have it back so we will keep it for you.” That’s how you sound.

−13

Saint_Genghis t1_j14ito9 wrote

How do you feel about ISIS destroying Palmyra or the Taliban destroying the Bamiyan Buddhas?

I'd rather not risk the destruction of priceless artifacts thanks.

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calmdwnnchill t1_j14ka1l wrote

All that is mute when you shouldn’t have any power on the item being possessed.

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Saint_Genghis t1_j14lbaq wrote

It's absolutely not mute, you just don't want to address the argument.

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fxmldr t1_j14t7mz wrote

John Oliver already did pretty compellingly. It's probably easier to check that out to see why that "argument" is condescending and asinine.

−11

Saint_Genghis t1_j14ulen wrote

My dude I'm not going to hunt down your own argument for you. Not everyone watches John Oliver.

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fxmldr t1_j15gv7s wrote

You just don't want to address the argument.

−5

Saint_Genghis t1_j15j0yw wrote

If you make an argument, I'll address it.

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fxmldr t1_j15y80s wrote

Delicious hypocrisy, mmm.

Here's a summary article for ya. https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/oct/03/john-oliver-stolen-antiquities-western-museums

I wonder which excuse you'll use not to read it.

−1

Saint_Genghis t1_j160k6i wrote

What hypocrisy? You told me to go watch HBO. That's an advertisement, not an argument. Why are you so hung up on this? Was it really so hard to post that article in the first place instead of sending people on a fucking scavenger hunt to find out what the hell you were even arguing?

And the only part of that article that seemed to address my point was that the British museum fucked up the Elgin Marbles with a wire brush 90 years ago. I don't know about you but I'm going to take my chances with the institution that accidentally fucked up in a minor way 90 years ago rather than the dictatorship that just had a chaotic revolution a decade ago.

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fxmldr t1_j163y1e wrote

"Scavenger hunt" for the second hit on Google if you search for it. Different standards, I guess.

Oh, I predicted this one. And I think I understand what's behind it. Because, on the one hand, we have actual damage done to stolen items, on the other, the condescending idea that these other people might not do a great job protecting their national treasures. You're shown evidence, and then just dismiss it.

Well, you've put forth no evidence except things that happened in the past and could hypothetically happen again, or acts carried out by terrorists. So...

Maybe you should be making a new argument instead. You know, instead of veiled appeals to subtle racism.

−2

Saint_Genghis t1_j164r0v wrote

And there it is, the final card. "Have all your arguments utterly failed? Cry 'RACISM' and declare victory."

Have a nice day, and try not to give any dictators priceless artifacts.

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fxmldr t1_j165fer wrote

LMAO, I see you've reached the picking up your toys and going home stage.

−3

YlangScent t1_j184emx wrote

Do you mean moot? Or did mute get another meaning added to it?

1

Azudekai t1_j14z8wm wrote

Preventing the destruction of a irreplaceable, historical human artifact is the best argument there is against returning artifacts to descendants of cultures that made them.

Sure the key to translating hieroglyphs was destroyed, but at least we felt good when we delivered it to the guys who couldn't protect it.

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KitchenCredit4510 t1_j1416vp wrote

Was it lying around in the UK?

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Leshawkcomics t1_j143z4q wrote

No, last I checked it was in Egypt.

Someone was trying to use it in construction.

And you have a whole slew of people insisting only Englishmen know it's true value, and implying that the ENTIRETY of Egypt and it's historical and archaeological community is simply too backwards to handle historical artifacts because of one dude working construction many many years ago.

It's like someone from Madagascar finding an artifact in Canada that explicitly proves trade happened between Vikings and natives, takes it back to their home country and refuses to give it back to Canada because they said they found it being used as a door ornament and is trying to paint all Canadians, native and immigrant with the same brush as whoever found it without realizing it's importance

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UrbanDryad t1_j14eckd wrote

No, but surely you recognize that if not for being kept safe in the UK all this time these heritage items would simply have been looted, sold, or destroyed. There are many, many examples of treasures lost forever in this way. Yes, these pieces originated in certain countries. But they are also a part of collective human history given how old they are. Hell, some of these places are still chaotic enough that if you returned them they might face the same fate.

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Mr_EZ_sk t1_j141xq9 wrote

it was being studied in efforts to transliterate Coptic and Hieroglyphic Egyptian scripts into ancient greek and then into English

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EsotericAbstractIdea t1_j144sd3 wrote

Was. Now give it back

−5

Mr_EZ_sk t1_j145mdo wrote

So we should just give it back for the one reason it was found in what is now Egypt? Never mind the fact that it was a gift from the Greeks, to a Greek dynasty ruling over Egypt, or that the Mameluks knew of its existence and actively decided to contribute nothing to crack the alphabets. The Egyptian government(s) did literally no work on the Rosetta Stone and feel as if they are just to reap the greatest reward

−1

EsotericAbstractIdea t1_j145s5l wrote

If I come in your backyard and dig up some shit, is it mine?

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inksmudgedhands t1_j14cw49 wrote

If what you dig up belonged to someone else, it might not be yours or mine, the current landowner. For example, I am in North Carolina. If you dug up my backyard and found an ancient Native American site full of artifacts, do I get to claim it because it was on my land or does the Native American nation whose ancestors those artifacts belong to get claim it? The Rosetta Stone was created during a time when the Greeks controlled Egypt and it was part of the Grecian Empire. That makes it a Greek artifact. If anything, the modern Greeks have a stronger claim on that artifact than the modern Egyptians.

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EsotericAbstractIdea t1_j14d33f wrote

The English have the least claim.

−3

inksmudgedhands t1_j14guod wrote

True. But the Egyptians have as much of a claim. Especially since it was originally considered worthless trash at the time it was collected. So much so, that similar artifacts around it were being used as building materials for other things. The Europeans salvaged it, put the work into figure exactly what it was and translated it. Now that it has actual value, the Egyptians want it back? Screw that. They didn't give a damn about it for centuries. They were even a threat to it because, again, they saw it as worthless and were smashing up all the ruins. But the moment someone else put in the actual hard work to make valuable they claim it was theirs all along.

That's nonsense.

It would be like you throwing out a couch on the curb to be taken away by the garbage man. Instead, someone else with a truck took it, restored it wonderfully, displayed it for all to admire and you come along and say, "Hey, that's my couch. Give it back!" No, you were going to throw out the couch. It was salvaged and restored by someone else. Now it's their couch. You don't get to reclaim it now that it has been restored. You lost it the moment you declared it trash.

The case of the Rosetta Stone isn't like the Benin Bronzes which were actually being used for what they were intended and honored by the original owners. That is a clear cut case of the original owners having their property, which was at the time being used properly, being stolen. The Rosetta Stone is not the same and shouldn't be treated as such.

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Aldervale t1_j146u4m wrote

It might be, depending on the mineral rights laws where you live.

−4

kekentyl t1_j14mt1h wrote

Which is pretty stupid tbh. "You can use the surface of this land, but if there's anything valuable under it, it's mine and a court will force you to allow me access to the land to drill/mine for it."

I mean, if you can only use it so long as it's not burdensome for the owner of the mineral rights, is it really yours?

In Texas at least, where some of the largest landowners are ranchers, these kinds of laws seem crafted specially to protect and grow their wealth and prevent anyone else from using the mineral resources present on "their" land to attain wealth.

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PurpleSkua t1_j148d89 wrote

One of the most frustrating ones to me is the moai in the British Museum. The delegation from Rapa Nui a couple years back even offered to make a new one to replace the original, and to me that's an incredible offer. That's a chance to do the right thing, still have an amazing and relevant piece to exhibit, and be part of living history all at once

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WonderWall_E t1_j13wgwy wrote

The British Museum's display on the Elgin Marbles remains disgusting to this day. You can see the entire history of their excuses for displaying stolen shit up on full display. The latest, that there isn't a dedicated and secure place to display them in Greece, hasn't been true for more than ten years. They just haven't bothered to come up with a new reason, and left up all the signage for their old reason.

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KitchenCredit4510 t1_j13y24u wrote

Not to mention all the resources they took too. Like Spain…

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MalcolmLinair t1_j15c1n9 wrote

They're still doing it; every time a Spanish wreck is found with treasure, the Spanish government demands it be turned over to them.

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Nameless218 t1_j14o3yw wrote

The Rosetta Stone is more significant to British history than it is to anyone else’s history.

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hiimsubclavian t1_j17jbs6 wrote

What, did someone assassinate king george III with the rosetta stone? Was the Magna Carta penned on the back of the stone? What part of British history has anything to do with the Rosetta stone.

1

[deleted] t1_j17myr5 wrote

The only reason the stone is important is because it allowed a translation. The history it tells was also told by other things.

And, it was translated by the British. It was of no value whatsoever in Egypt, and would have been destroyed if not for a British person noticing it and acquiring it.

So, it's importance is entirely within the British hands.

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hiimsubclavian t1_j17pcbs wrote

It's an Egyptian artifact. Britain with the big incel energy here. No, just because something is important to you doesn't mean it belongs to you.

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empfindsamkeit t1_j14j96f wrote

Why stop at "cultural theft"? How about we try to figure out which land was first discovered by which ethnic group and return it all to those it was originally stolen from? I think they'd rather have wealth than trinkets. Generally when someone conquers a land they also get all the treasures that may be part of it, so at a minimum we should try to return those ill-gotten items to their true owners. The Islamic regime of present-day Egypt has pretty little continuity with Ancient Egypt where these treasures were produced.

1

riding_tides t1_j157yoj wrote

The Benin Bronzes were each created to commemorate a significant event and were displayed in chronological order. Looting them was like ripping pages of a book that have no page numbers on it and then tossing it in the air.

I hope it gets put back in order.

John Oliver had a good coverage on this at the 7:20 min. mark.

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incognitomus t1_j17z6vt wrote

>I hope it gets put back in order.

Eh, doubt it's possible anymore.

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axck t1_j14g216 wrote

And of course it was the British who stole them to begin with.

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roombaonfire t1_j15f27p wrote

Japan could really learn a thing or two from Germany...

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finnerpeace t1_j15i8hg wrote

Gorgeous bronzes! Glad to see them, and glad to see this good action.

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Cormetz t1_j154cfx wrote

And the Ishtar gate? Is that staying in Berlin?

It's a good move though.

1

Nervous_Promotion819 t1_j16smjj wrote

The Ishtar Gate cannot be returned. This is far too much effort and would probably destroy it. A lot was already destroyed during dismantling and transport. In addition, the gate was not stolen because the Ottoman antiquities administration allowed it to be transported to Berlin

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Sajun t1_j15hoj1 wrote

Gee I wonder if the UK will follow suit on literally any of their stolen treasures.

/s

1

Trayew t1_j15v7a2 wrote

On the latest episode of “Our Bad”.

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k_mainer t1_j179fw9 wrote

Wonderful! Be the change. Power to the people.

1

Still-Candidate-1666 t1_j16c8di wrote

Its a good idea, but I wonder about how stable Nigeria is, I have no idea, but its no good when theres a chance of people like isis going around smashing historical artifacts. Not saying its going to happen, but might be something to consider. One thing you do have to give the Europeans some credit for, at least they took good care of the stuff they stole haha.

0

jens-2420 t1_j17i701 wrote

Nothing of bronze was involved. Just a misleading name. And Benin was not Nigeria then.

0

Rushes_End t1_j13zrb8 wrote

those things look like nightmare fuel.

−2

Dr-P-Ossoff t1_j14i38o wrote

They each have special meaning in a particular context. Since this is the Germans, I'll assume they have been well studied, which might help them go back to the original purpose of showing the history of the country.

8