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ManhattanRailfan t1_jcaichj wrote

Wow, it's almost like keeping people out of work and impoverishing them makes them more likely to commit crime.

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NetQuarterLatte t1_jcblzol wrote

We should stop associating crimes and poverty.

Being poor is not a crime.

The 99% of people in poverty who never commits any crimes don't deserve this kind of stigma. It's time to stop perpetuating that.

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ManhattanRailfan t1_jcbmbhr wrote

Never said otherwise, but poverty is by far the largest cause of crime because it also causes all sorts of other societal issues that cause crime. Homelessness, mental health issues, low-quality education, overpolicing, etc.

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tonka737 t1_jcdd9sj wrote

Just how poverty can be the cause of said symptoms it can also bet the result.

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elizabeth-cooper t1_jcb109a wrote

In a national study, being arrested and immediately let out and being arrested and kept in jail for less than six months were basically equal in terms of employment rates because it wasn't employed people who were getting arrested in the first place. There are no NYC stats about the percentage of people arrested who lost their jobs before bail reform was implemented.

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matzoh_ball t1_jccdvii wrote

FWIW, there is a study on that, which uses survey data that was collected between 2019 and 2021: https://www.nycja.org/publications/the-initial-collateral-consequences-of-pretrial-detention

If you scroll a bit down on that page, you'll see an interactive bar chart that shows that 20.1% of respondents who were arrested and not detained at arraignment lost their job compared to 35.0% of respondents who were arrested and detained at arraignment.

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elizabeth-cooper t1_jccuvwz wrote

You didn't read that correctly, but it's not your fault, they deliberately wrote it in a confusing way.

They interviewed 1,500 people and 500 were not employed in the first place.

510 people out of 1,000 reported "issues" with their job. Among those issues, 27% reported being fired. That means 138 people reported being fired out of 1,000, which is 14% of employed arrestees. Which means 86% did not lose their jobs.

That 20/35% is likelihood of losing their job, not the percent of people who did lose their job.

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matzoh_ball t1_jcd1fql wrote

Good catch! Yes, kinda makes sense that they’d only report the percentages of people who lost their job of people who had a job in the first place. Still, could be made more clear in their write up.

So, regardless of the job issues stat, it seems they base those likelihoods on the number of ppl who had a job at time of arrest:

> Over one in five participants who were employed at the time of arrest (n=1,031) were no longer employed when they were interviewed (n=219)

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BATMAN_UTILITY_BELT t1_jcame9v wrote

Crime is not strongly related to poverty. Rich people commit crime too.

Crime comes down to upbringing and family structure. When the home is rotten, society becomes a little more rotten.

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ThreeLittlePuigs t1_jcaq74b wrote

> Crime is not strongly related to poverty. Rich people commit crime too.

I mean, crime is incredibly related to poverty. Sure things like access to quality education or stable housing also help, but to say there isn't a strong relationship is ignoring a lot of studies and data on the subject.

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WickhamAkimbo t1_jcb0ixi wrote

Yes, it contributes. How about we list the other factors that contribute? The quality of home life is a vastly stronger predictor of someone growing up to commit crime than poverty. Growing up in a divorced/unmarried household is also a contributing factor. Witnessing adults using violence as a child is an incredibly strong predictor. These are major factors that seem to just get swept under the rug and are strongly tied to culture.

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rdugz t1_jcbel7f wrote

If I had to guess I would say these are all strongly correlated with wealth too

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TheAJx t1_jcb4h3n wrote

> I mean, crime is incredibly related to poverty. Sure things like access to quality education or stable housing also help,

Hot beds of crime, places like Ghana, India and Vietnam.

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[deleted] t1_jcawnmb wrote

[deleted]

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ThreeLittlePuigs t1_jcawzk2 wrote

God you're insufferable.

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TheJoseph97 t1_jcaxjzl wrote

Real question though, did that 9 year old shot outside the bodega in the Bronx, was that because the gunman was so damn poor he’s just tryna put food on his table?

Or was that other little girl who got shot in Brownsville, that was done so the shooter can afford toiletries for his family right

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ThreeLittlePuigs t1_jcaydk1 wrote

Real answer, I don't think its worth us talking about this as I don't think you're interesting in actually having a discussion, and it's not worth my time. If you are actually curious there's plenty of studies on the subject that you can read.

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ManhattanRailfan t1_jcanouv wrote

Non-white collar crime is almost directly correlated to economic insecurity. Eliminate poverty and you also eliminate the vast majority crime.

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WickhamAkimbo t1_jcayseq wrote

>Non-white collar crime is almost directly correlated to economic insecurity.

The group in NYC with the highest poverty rate has the lowest crime rate. Poverty has a correlation with crime, but it isn't anywhere close to the strength you are implying.

There are far larger and more important factors at play here. Your attempts to sweep them under the rug will only make matters worse.

EDIT: Downvote away folks, your view of the world is a joke. A victim mentality will fuck you far harder than your fellow man ever could. Good luck to those of you that are hoping playing the victim will somehow magically unfuck your life.

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ManhattanRailfan t1_jcaziz9 wrote

Are you sure about that?

Also, it's not exactly hard to look at a crime heat map of NYC and see how it almost directly maps onto the income level of the residents in a given neighborhood. The only exceptions are places like Midtown that have tons of people in them, but very few actual residents so the crime rates get skewed.

Also, there's a reason why I specifically said economic insecurity rather than poverty. Those two things aren't precisely the same thing.

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WickhamAkimbo t1_jcb2ino wrote

Yes, I'm confident in the links I posted. I posted links to data across the entire city of 8 million+ and you posted a link to a study with a sample size of 713.

> Also, it's not exactly hard to look at a crime heat map of NYC and see how it almost directly maps onto the income level of the residents in a given neighborhood. The only exceptions are places like Midtown that have tons of people in them, but very few actual residents so the crime rates get skewed.

And now you're trying to conduct an experiment on the fly with some hand-wavy methodology and random speculation.

Address the data: why does the group with the highest poverty rate in the city have the lowest crime rate? How does that work if poverty is overwhelmingly the strongest predictor of criminality? Does it perhaps suggest that other factors are at play?

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ManhattanRailfan t1_jcb47gr wrote

You haven't given me any relevant data. All you've done is given me correlations. Why not look at the actual income of convicted arrestees rather than using race as a proxy like some sort of nazi? You're also missing the nuance of economic insecurity vs poverty. A person can be impoverished and not economically insecure. Asian immigrant communities tend to have strong social support networks that make food and housing security less of an issue. Black and Latino communities are also far more heavily policed, so that data wouldn't be valid even if it did indicate what you claim it does.

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WickhamAkimbo t1_jccbwsy wrote

I gave very, very accurate data on a much larger scale than anything you offered. I gave you two facts together that are very contrary to your view of the world, and you are here making garbage remarks like

> A person can be impoverished and not economically insecure

I honestly can't tell if you're joking with this stuff. You want to believe what you want to believe. Fine. Believe that poverty is insurmountable and the entire world is out to get you. Fail and fail harder. Play the victim. Maybe one day you'll figure out that you're fucking yourself.

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ManhattanRailfan t1_jccj92f wrote

Dude, whether the data is accurate or not is irrelevant. The conclusion you're drawing from it cannot be drawn with that data alone. You're making way too many assumptions.

And yes, a person can be in poverty, but if they have a stable source of food and housing, then they're in much better shape than someone who doesn't technically fall below the poverty line but goes hungry every night so their kid can eat. These concepts shouldn't be particularly difficult to grasp.

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WickhamAkimbo t1_jcdjvw5 wrote

> The conclusion you're drawing from it cannot be drawn with that data alone.

Uh, yes, it can. The conclusion I gave was clearly stated as "The group in NYC with the highest poverty rate has the lowest crime rate." That's true and supported by those independent sources. You don't need a sociologist to add an "and" to those sentences.

You tried to discredit the statement with some very poorly-thought-out speculation on your part, and probably didn't take 60 seconds to challenge your own worldview.

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ManhattanRailfan t1_jcdkvfq wrote

Okay, but the implication you're trying to make from that "fact" (arrest rates are not the same as crime rates) is unsupported by it. The only thing it proves is that you're a racist. Race is irrelevant here. And as I said, the data is skewed because black and brown communities are overpoliced. Looking at crime and wealth maps of the city is far more relevant despite what you're saying because the vast majority of crimes tend to happen in the community of the person committing said crime.

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WickhamAkimbo t1_jcfboww wrote

> Okay, but the implication you're trying to make from that "fact" (arrest rates are not the same as crime rates) is unsupported by it.

That's not the point I made either explicitly or implicitly. The point I made is that you are wrong; that crime has more causes than just poverty, and in many cases, poverty isn't even the biggest contributing factor.

> The only thing it proves is that you're a racist. Race is irrelevant here.

You call me a racist because you don't have any valid response to what I'm saying. You panic and use whatever you can to avoid looking at the numbers because they totally disprove your very simplistic view of the world.

> And as I said, the data is skewed because black and brown communities are overpoliced.

Wrong again. Victimization surveys mirror the arrest rates given above. Victims themselves, including black and brown victims, identify their attackers in proportion to arrest rates. That's relevant when you claim that poverty causes crime and yet the most impoverished racial group is vastly underrepresented in crime stats.

YOU ARE WRONG. Your feelings don't matter. I'm giving you some very cold hard data that doesn't care about your emotions, and you are flopping around trying your best to ignore it.

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[deleted] t1_jcbqcml wrote

[deleted]

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WickhamAkimbo t1_jccc465 wrote

Your post is basically over here trying to give justifications for Black/Brown people to beat up Asian people. I would say your rhetoric is provably more dangerous.

There are systemic issues, that doesn't mean they can't be overcome, and that culture and self-reliance aren't more important determining factors of criminality and outcomes.

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BATMAN_UTILITY_BELT t1_jcao064 wrote

What’s the proof of this? No one has ever eliminated poverty, so how can we know if that would eliminate the vast majority of crime?

It also depends on how you define poverty. Is it a specific income level? Is it the ability to afford the necessities but not the luxuries? The terminology needs to be explicitly defined.

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ManhattanRailfan t1_jcaou2g wrote

Like I said, it's about economic insecurity. If people don't feel like they're at risk of going hungry or homeless they're far less likely to commit a crime. Part of it can be linked to desperation, but equally significant is the psychological effect of being or possibly becoming destitute. Stress greatly affects mental health, after all, and poor mental health also leads to crime.

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WickhamAkimbo t1_jcazrvl wrote

The group in NYC with the highest poverty rate has the lowest crime rate.

Poverty absolutely exacerbates crime, but to claim that it is the overwhelming cause of crime in NYC is not supported by the evidence at all. Actual statistics would suggest a very different story.

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ManhattanRailfan t1_jcb4i17 wrote

And like I said in my reply to your other comment, this data doesn't say what you claim it does, and isn't even valid in the first place.

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Darrackodrama t1_jcarp79 wrote

That’s false, upbringing and family structure failure is related to poverty all the same and correlates with crime

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pixel_of_moral_decay t1_jcasmz5 wrote

Crime is correlated with what we categorize as immoral behavior.

At one point sex outside of marriage was immoral and criminal.

We could eliminate crime if we wanted by accepting more cultural differences. The vast majority of crime in our laws is just that.

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TheJoseph97 t1_jcayc3h wrote

Yeah this guy gets it, drive-bys are a cultural institution

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stork38 t1_jcaqhvc wrote

Rich people do shootings, rapes and street robberies?

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ManhattanRailfan t1_jcar07f wrote

I mean, to be fair to him, the wealthy absolutely do murder, rape, and steal, they just have socialists and journalists murdered by others and steal from the people who made them wealthy in the first place.

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