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APettyJ OP t1_jdb6cy1 wrote

Reply to comment by tagged2high in SEPTA hopes new vertical gates will deter turnstile jumpers by APettyJ

"The gates, from Conduent Transport Solutions, include a 3D imaging system that can sound an alarm if someone tries to piggyback their way past the gate without paying. The sensors can also recognize wheelchairs, strollers and luggage."

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kellyoohh t1_jdc8mrg wrote

I don’t think many would be deterred by an alarm. I’ve seen turnstile jumpers look directly into the face of the SEPTA employee as they’re doing it, and just keep on going.

The most effective to me seemed to be the full body the turnstiles they installed in parts of 30th street, but I also hate them as they cause congestion so I don’t know.

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rndljfry t1_jdci3pz wrote

>The SEPTA board is set to approve a $925,000 contract for the 3D gates on Thursday, with delivery expected late this year.
>
>Nearly 2,800 fare evasion cases were reported on SEPTA last year — an increase of more than 800 from 2021. Busch said the new gates would more accurately track the number of fare evaders on the system.

Hmm... 2,8000 * 2.50 = $7,000

High tech 3D imaging gates at two subway stations: $925,000.

Principles seem really expensive lol

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estellato12 t1_jdcj40i wrote

i would like to atleast quadruple that number they provided lol. i think i can sit at one station for a day and see like 100 people hop haha

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TheMauryShiow t1_jdckdpi wrote

Yeah reporting 2,800 fare evasion cases comes out to 7.7 fare jumps per day. I see around 3-5 every time I ride the subway, which is usually twice a day, sometimes thee times. What a hilariously low number that is.

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rndljfry t1_jdd0hm8 wrote

at 10x the reported number we are approaching a $70k problem with a $975k "pilot program".

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emlynhughes t1_jdd8pj4 wrote

The issue isn't really the fares. It's the other problems they cause on the subway that inconvenience other passengers.

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rndljfry t1_jdd9u1m wrote

I wonder where they'll take their problems, then.

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emlynhughes t1_jdda4ir wrote

This mentality of just selling out public transportation on this reddit always blows my mind.

Especially with something as important to a city as public transportation.

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rndljfry t1_jddapkb wrote

I'm not sure what you mean. Once you kick them out of the subway, they hang around on the sidewalk next to the subway. Then people are still afraid to walk to the subway. Panhandlers go where there are people. Homeless people go where they can be comfortable. Kids cause trouble for laughs.

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emlynhughes t1_jddb9e1 wrote

Maybe that should be addressed as well?

Not just turning the El into a homeless shelter or day care to save the rest of the city.

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rndljfry t1_jddbtk1 wrote

I guess ultimately the idea that the fare-jumping is the root of the problem just really doesn't feel right to me. Subway upgrades are cool.

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randym99 t1_jdd80m6 wrote

2,800 reported fare jumps works out to a single fare jump per week at each station on the BSL and MFL. That 2,800 number might very well be off by 100x, in which case $700k every year is an excellent payback.

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rndljfry t1_jddb3i8 wrote

$975,000 for two stations.

Maybe if there were 195,000 jumps per station per year. That's 535/station/day.

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randym99 t1_jddbyk8 wrote

195k per station per year would be a 1 year payback, ignoring all benefit from cleaning the system up for honest riders. I'd be thrilled with a 5 year payback, which would require preventing 39k fare jumps per year per station, which is like 4-5 fare jumps per hour, which is probably in the ballpark of the actual situation on the ground today.

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hamdynasty t1_jdcp8pj wrote

People already on the platform trigger the exit mechanism so others can enter through the handicap gate. Sometimes it feels like half the riders haven't payed.

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estellato12 t1_jdd1yc7 wrote

I think at some stations that actually is the correct stat, that only 50% pay. I can use 34th as an example, I do go to Drexel but always pay but definitely when going out at night, I don't think anyone else bothers to pay.

There is no SEPTA attendant and no real encouragement to pay, just out of good faith.

Also yeah everyday I leave city hall, someone comes in behind me on the handicap one haha.

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rndljfry t1_jdczrwr wrote

so... maybe $28,000 dollars lost based on your feelings still leaves a pretty significant gap to $925,000 for 2 stations * the whole BSL and MFL networks, no?

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estellato12 t1_jdd1l2t wrote

mainly I was just saying definitely more than 2.8k people hop each year (probably far more than 11,200 do), wasn't really commenting on the need.

however, I do think it is worth the investment. would certainly provide safer and cleaner platforms, which is a big reason why ridership is down. so factoring in more people actually paying (who knows how many people actually do hop, I would assume it is very high) and an increase in ridership, then you can maybe pay off the investment in a decade (which for infrastructure upgrades that is pretty decent). of course you would have to factor in yearly maintenance, but overall I do think these improved gates do a whole lot more than making sure people pay. I bet way more people would ride the subway if it was safer. No reason I should feel on edge at 3pm on a Thursday... or be walking past a pool of blood, etc. (yes that has happened).

I just hope that city also takes more time to address homelessness because it shouldn't be on SEPTA to be the only location where they can have any kind of shelter, and if the gates are improved and the housing/shelter need isn't met then we are in full a ton more issues.

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rndljfry t1_jdd31ky wrote

I’m usually not one to discourage investing in long term improvements, I just find the case they’re making to be absurd based on these numbers. I guess I just wonder if “high-tech” is needed for this exact problem.

I also find it hard to believe that the crime that people are concerned about is stealing a $3 ride on the train. Gates aren’t going to stop people from fighting and doing drugs or whatever.

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estellato12 t1_jdd856s wrote

I believe the gates do stop people from bringing that down onto the platforms. People also aren't going to pay to loiter on the platforms. It will make it so people using the transit, actually are there to use it. Of course there will still be crime, people littering, etc. but I would say this definitely would reduce it.

I know SEPTA likes to do a million pilot programs and not actually follow through but I think just comparing one station to with these to the rest would show their use. Of course this all assumes SEPTA decides to implement something properly.

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rndljfry t1_jdd8v4t wrote

>People also aren't going to pay to loiter on the platforms.

For real, which people are jumping and standing on platforms indefinitely? I've only ever seen people rush through when the train pulls up so they aren't stuck standing there with nowhere to go.

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estellato12 t1_jdefpnr wrote

I mean at the stations I use everyday they sure do, definitely contribute to most of the trash down there for sure. But I am sure it all depends on each station and area as well. Experiences can always vary

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kellyoohh t1_jdckkuj wrote

Totally agree. They could probably save money by just placing SEPTA police at high-use stations. Or honestly a long list of literally anything else.

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thebruns t1_jdcxefv wrote

MTA in NYC turned off the alarms at gates because they were basically on full time making the experience shit for everyone else

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courageous_liquid t1_jdd6mru wrote

> full body the turnstiles

which aren't ADA compliant and cause issues in emergencies, those things are awful

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Odd-Emergency5839 t1_jdje8mt wrote

The emergency doors in nyc have alarms too but people routinely hold them open despite the alarm sounding. So at a lot of stations they just disabled the alarm so it’s not constantly going off

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