All I got out of this article is that the mall currently pays $500,000 / year in taxes when their bill should be $25,000,000. Makes the PILOT payments universities make look generous in comparison.

It’s not uncommon for cities/states to come to agreements on things that bring economic development. The trade off is obviously either economic impact (I guess a mall bringing people into the city) or solid jobs (a mall has some decent jobs but not exactly a lot of great jobs).

The mall has done a lot for PVD - I’m surprised whenever I’m there how busy it is. Now obviously places like Gap closing has little to do with Prov Place, just that Gap is struggling.

That being said, it always cracks me up how people go after the universities - without them PVD wouldn’t have a lot going for it. They have so many good jobs and bring so much economic impact (ie JWU culinary).

I’d argue it isn’t “economic development” if the mall is self-contained and only houses big chains. If anything, that’s taking away business from the smaller shops downtown. Nothing has been built around the mall in the almost 30 years it’s been open. That whole area surrounding the train station is rife for development, but the last buildings to be built went up 15 years ago – 2 office buildings (GTECH and Blue Cross) and 3 residential towers (2 at Waterplace, the other adjacent to the Omni).

If the mall is going to continue taking up valuable real estate and only providing a place for non-residents to easily access right off the highway, park their cars in the garage, and then go right back home without setting foot outside in the city, what’s the point of giving them tax breaks?

How much would the lack of real estate tax be offset by sales tax on store purchases?

I have no idea what revenue the place generates, but am curious if the City calculates things like that.

Also glad to see more experiences coming like Level 99. Fashion and shopping alone can’t keep Malls going like they used to in the 80s/90s.

A valid question, and I have no idea what the answer is. But that sales tax goes to the state, not the city, right? So it’s not like we directly benefit from it (unless I’m totally off-base there).

Agree about the mall pivoting to offer more “experiences” – the new Night Shift thing should be cool. Would love to see more food hall-style things, arcades, or event spaces, as opposed to a litany of redundant retailers.

The lack of chains (particularly restaurants) in PVD is very diff than most cities. Would one build a mall like this in 2023? No. But it does bring people and activity to PVD - you can complain about those people but many of them are going to restaurants outside of the mall, etc. Also, walk down Westminster after 5-6 pm and none of those stores are even open. There’s been chatter about converting parts of the mall into residences, for example, which I think is interesting.

The land around the mall is developed. The Jewelry District/195 plots have been sitting vacant for sale for years.

Yet there’s still people complaining about those lots getting developed. One company was trying to build their HQ in one plot by the Shell station/Trader Joes - right off of interstate exits. And residents complained it would bring too much traffic. Yes, let’s run businesses out of PVD because of…traffic.

I wouldn’t say “growth mindset” is Providence’s forte. 🙃

Great point about state tax vs city. Hadn’t thought of that. Love the idea of the Mall returning to a place to just “be” and to shop.

level 99 lets goooo

Fogo de Chão is so good, excited to see that empty spot put to use.

Once Zara and Apple device to leave the mall is done. Those 2 stores are keeping it afloat. Plus there’s a ton of punks that roam around. Better off going to Garden City.

Covert it to a casino

Not a bad idea actually.

Keep the top floor as a mall lower and mid as a casino.

Other way around would probably be better for security and air quality reasons, but yeah a casino would actually help keep the retail b&m places afloat.

For sure!! Plus you have the train station right there hotel is connected. It’s a no brainer.

Surprised the owners rejected the idea of converting into condos or apts a la The Arcade, especially given how successful the 903 and 225 promenade/ Halstead nearby have been.

>All I got out of this article is that the mall currently pays $500,000 / year in taxes when their bill should be $25,000,000.

If that was their bill the mall would close down and suddenly the yearly payment would be $0/year in taxes

Now if you had said $1,000,000 or so, that's a more reasonable proposition

>If that was their bill the mall would close down and suddenly the yearly payment would be $0/year in taxes

1. That’s not how property taxes work

2. If having to pay taxes at the same rate as every other business makes the mall non-viable, maybe it’s time for a viable business to take its place.

What are the issues of crime and safety the article alluded to?

Blockbuster passed up a chance to buy Netflix. A lot of commercial real estate owners probably think now that COVID is “over”things are going to go back to “normal.” I may not have a crystal ball, but I think the odds of things ever going back to people working in downtown offices five days a week are over for good.

The group fights, stabbings, robberies, suicides, accidental deadly falls down the escalators, SA in the garage …

Yeah like a parking lot

That would be really sweet! Are they a chain?

Bring back fire and ice!

A lot of mega malls have turned into experience destinations. Aquariums, airsoft, Instagram scenery, spas, etc. providence place needs to adapt. Johnson and Wales should buy some space and create a cooking class experience restaurant

That’s just GoLocal beating their usual copaganda drum.

Make a section of the mall into little store fronts. Allow people to try and establish and grow a small business. Make a section for food, apparel, tech, hobbies whatever. Allow them access to a POS system, shelving, equipment etc. Have a website community where the employees of these establishments can seamlessly move to a new vendor to keep it fresh and learn a new business or gather new clients. I feel like we need some fresh ideas for commerce in this state.

Needed that Trader Joe’s

The mall arguably killed downtown shopping, though. And makes it much harder for downtown to revive, like other downtowns are.

I mean the mall was part of PVDs downtown re-emerging. It’s not like downtown today is some run down ghost town. Brick n mortar “Shopping” in general is dying, mall or not. It’s not like Worcester and Hartford have Crate & Barrel and Anthropologie downtown cause they don’t have a mall. The mall still brings lots of people to downtown PVD.

Tear it down. malls are obsolete

Whoa. Level 99 looks really cool.

Anyone remember that guy who would drive around Providence in the mid to late 90s, basically talk shit, film it, and it somehow wound up on local TV?

I remember him driving by the mall as it was being constructed or just after it was complete, saying “it would be a homeless shelter one day”.

I don’t completely doubt it; maybe he was really onto something.

Of course as part of the original deal: the developer got to keep 2/3rds of the sales tax collected for at least 15 years, not sure if that was allowed to sunset or not.

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/17/business/real-estate-providence-ri-getting-375-million-shopping-mall-after-nine-years.html

Looks like they only have one open in the Natick Mall.

Why would JWU rent space when they can get free real estate anywhere else from this city.

Because whoever moves into that space needs to make a profit and with JWU’s Free labor through culinary and business students, they are a viable tenant

There was an article I think in NY Times about transitioning commercial to residential and how it’s just a disaster.

The Arcade is an interesting example - do people actually live in those? I’ve seen them for sale but they are ridiculously tiny. And not a great example of keeping a building afloat haha

Um you realize they don’t just point at land and poof a building appears? They have to buy land, pay to develop it, build, maintain, etc.

JWU’s economic impact is quite strong. They are tax exempt as a university just as any university across the country is along with all churches, non-profits, etc.

I love when people villainize Rhode Island’s schools though.

Build housing or tax them fairly

Level 99 is so fun!! It would be a great addition to providence

What's the tuition and enrollment for JWU? Cry me a river.

JWU is significantly cheaper than PC, Bryant, etc.

So yeah, cry me a river that you chose to b*itch about the school that is offering an affordable education for Rhode Islanders.

Hartford can’t hold a candle to Providence.

The mall provides a public service. Brown University doesn’t have a single location where you can build you own bear.

I think this take requires pretending that downtown retail on storefronts is a thriving modern concept and not some shit that died everywhere

That mall is paying a million now. GoLocal sucks. The latest proposal is shifting the bill to around 4.5 million. Not sure where it stands

Casinos are a death blow to the surrounding area’s economy.

….you mean compared to when it was totally vacant? Yes, people live there. All of the micro lifts upstairs are condos.

What do you mean not a great example of keeping a building afloat?

Yeah that’s why I said I’ve seen them for sale….but given the size sometimes those types of places aren’t primary residences.

I’ve never seen a soul when I go in the arcade. Obviously those condos aren’t housing many people just given their size - guessing most are solo occupied. Hence not a good example of residences contributing to pedestrian traffic!

48 lofts at 1 person per loft is 48 people living in downtown who probably wouldn’t be there if not for the small size and relative affordability. Paolinos “studley” building is 65 micro units and the one next to “the dorrance” is also micro lofts.

I see people coming and going from the arcade pretty often when im walking by. You can enter and exit from either side

They had one place, but the bear was huge, blue and had a light for a head.

I think I had a nightmare / sex dream about that bear

They used to have one in the arcade back in the day.. it was awesome.. miss that place