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I'm only partway through the article, but I already suspect that this is for the same reason that Wal-Mart and other companies' Fair labor practices don't impact how much of their product comes from sweatshops: Most times companies that make those pledges will contract a factory that they've 'vetted', and that factory will then subcontract one that doesn't conform to those standards.

The company usually knows this is going on too, but they can claim ignorance, since the first factory they hired did meet those standards.

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I came here to mention plausible deniability.

This is why I want to hulk smash every product I see that says "sustainable palm oil". There is no such thing.

On the head. These companies have destroyed our planet already, why stop now? Greedy fucks.

Because pledges are worthless. Ask the Uighurs how that pledge went for them.

The supply chain is not the problem with environmentally unfriendly products. The demand chain is.

What is that even supposed to mean?

People buying unsustainable crap

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They were explaining my point, not trying to debate you. Buzz off.

Who said that - Bolsanaro?

"Claims" don't work. Actions do.

Next time you fly, look out the window. The earth is literally covered with trees.

Here is some science: no consequences means no action will be taken, just got PR. Companies learned this social and economic sciences lesson long ago. We should take heed

Of course it means nothing because those forest acres are being cleared for four commodities (beef cattle, corn, soybeans, sugarcane) and not finished products. Any harvestable trees are first logged and sold worldwide, mostly to pulp paper plants in the US and Canada.

What is the Amazon being cut down for? Principally, grazing land for beef and cropland to produce soy for animal feed.

Until Brazil chooses to regulate this, only international prohibitions on Brazilian beef or soy exports, or a marked global reduction in beef and other animal product demand, will have much impact.

Brazil has much to lose from Amazon deforestation. Only the atmospheric rivers of moisture from the Amazon prevent the La Plata basin from becoming scrubland or desert. But like most people in the world, they're not well enough informed to secure the welfare of their children and grandchildren.

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McDonald's Corp. has ties to deforestation and labor abuses in Brazil's Pantanal wetlands and in the Amazon rainforest, which plays a crucial role in regulating the world's climate, according to a report published Wednesday by Reporter Brasil, an independent research group focused on environmental and labor issues.

You mean they can just lie? Get out!

It means stop blaming Exxon for the fact that we all want to commute to work as the only occupant of a 2000lbs internal combustion vehicle and on our own schedule, rather than taking public transit or biking in the rain. Exxon wouldn't even exist if there wasn't a demand for their carbon-spewing poison.

CEOs are statistically sociopaths, but sociopaths aren't stupid. They don't clear-cut the rainforest with a pinky to their lips and cackle with glee; they do it because we thought that mahogany coffee table would perfectly compliment great grandma's quilt (framed and hanging on the wall rather than providing warmth as we crank the thermostat, of course).

While there are loads of scams regarding pledges to xyz goal, I think it’s better that we try to root out the bad faith actors than to paint them all as ineffective.

Oh, indubitably. I never meant to imply otherwise. It's just that as a society we currently seem to be interested in doing either.

I'm sure some of the companies making deforestation-free pledges may very well be making good on those pledges, but I unfortunately feel the number of companies exploiting plausible deniability may be much higher. Part of this is very much due to the government needing to step up and hold bad actors accountable.

We will have to get used to living in a hostile desert like Venus, and rulers will have to adapt to the chaos they've inherited from their elders.

Governments only care about trying to farm money and political power for their nations and immediate neighbors. Often the environment is the last concern, save for sadly the tiny island nations who have to face its effects first.

Brazil=Nauru

Nauru was completely destroyed by strip mining, and the money gained from it is long gone.

Wikipedia: led by founding president Hammer DeRoburt. In 1967, the people of Nauru purchased the assets of the British Phosphate Commissioners, and in June 1970, control passed to the locally owned Nauru Phosphate Corporation. Money gained from the exploitation of phosphate was put into the Nauru Phosphate Royalties Trust and gave Nauruans the second highest GDP Per Capita (second only to the United Arab Emirates) and one of the highest standards of living in the Third World.[26][

Modern-day Nauru. As its phosphate stores began to run out (by 2006, its reserves were exhausted), the island was reduced to an environmental wasteland. Nauru appealed to the International Court of Justice to compensate for the damage from almost a century of phosphate strip-mining by foreign companies.

Yep - nobody wants to hear this, do they?

Why do you think billionaires are buying all the farmland. They know this and are preparing

We will have to adapt and ensure that we will still inconvenience them.

I have a hypothesis that the massive pressure exerted by humans as an intelligent species on the rest of the animal kingdom will nurture a massive evolutionary jump somewhere. Could be wrong but I kind of think it would be a good thing if there were something to put our species in check.

Edit:

A lot of people seem to disagree. I’d love to see why you think this isn’t feasible in the comments.

To quantify my previous statement, I would consider minor changes in brain physiology /function to be ‘massive’. I don’t think this would knock humans off the top of the hierarchy by any means but changes like this I think would have the potential to shift how we interact with the world.

I mean if anything that existed in relatively large numbers (ants for example) developed even a small amount of intelligence, 100 times dumber than the dumbest human, their threat level to any other species would increase exponentially.

Insects probably unlikely, I think it would most likely be primates first or one of a few other mammals.

And I guess if you don’t believe in evolution, that would kind of make further discussion pointless since my assertion relies on it.

On the contrary, you can consider most palm oil to be as sustainable as it gets. Given that demand stays constant, palm oil is one of the most efficient oils to produce. Any alternative will be more damaging than palm oil.

The issue is the level of demand rather than the medium to satisfy the demand.

That's because corporations are liars. They only care about making money.

No, the issue is that like 90% of palm oil production is from slashed rainforest.

Crucially the bit about commuting. It make people predictably unhappy, but they still do it!

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Orangutans are nearly extinct in the wild, because of our love of palm oil.

Except you have it exactly backwards. We don't choose how the world is built or what is produced. "Voting with your dollar" as an idea is ludicrous.

And public transit? You have to be out of your head. Outside of dense cities, public transport in the US is an afterthought, at best.

Because it isn't true.

Keep being ignorant.

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Tell someone complaining about the deforestation in Amazons to vegan and you’re met with a long explanation as to why they must eat meat.

My mom used to work for George, the clothing brand Asda owns in the UK (Asda = Walmart)

She discovered tonnes of this whenever she went overseas and raised it. Things changed. Problem was? The second she wasn't like a hawk on these suppliers? They'd be back to their old games and sweatshops.

There's only so many suppliers you can build relationships with about this madness.

Context is missing here and I believe we need to go deeper. Ultimately it is law enforcement of forest and land tenure policies. If the local actors who are supposed to enforce these policies don't do it due to lack of resources or get incentives under the table to turn a blind eye, is this the responsibility of the companies? If it is, are we then saying that companies - the private sector - should be responsible for law enforcement? Maybe the answer is yes. Or maybe the answer should be that when faced with this situation companies should just shut close all business in that region?

It’s gonna be the octopi isn’t it.

Octopi, if you’re reading this, I have never eaten you, please show me mercy.

I want to assume possitive intent on this one. For me the issue is consumption vs regeneration rate. One software developer in California consumes as much as 40 farmers in Uganda (measured in carbon footprint). The software developer changes phones every year and has a milkshake and a burger every other day. The Ugandan farmer grows crops for food. Companies respond to demand. Natural resources need time to regenerate. When the demand and consumption rate outpaces the regeneration rate we have a problem. We don't tend to talk about consumption rates when talking about Deforestation and that's a big miss.

It’s funny that’s your take, because everytime I fly I’m in awe of how everything is either farmland or desert, and how little land there is left that hasn’t been divided up and fenced off from nature, even in a country as vast as the US.

Or are you one of those people that thinks a half acre of foliage in your subdivision is enough to sustain an ecosystem?

The thing is usa areant the one buying Brazilian beef. It's mostly asia, mainly china. And i don't see them wanting to stop.

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Over 70% of their soy and beef go to China who I imagine don't care.

This is once again placing the blame on the wrong people. The average person is powerless and already doing their best to sustain themselves in the harsh conditions our society imposes. Someone working minimum wage can't afford to eat a healthy vegetarian diet, they can't afford to buy products fabricated in places with fair working conditions, etc.

Companies don't care about the damage they're causing, and governments aren't doing enough to regulate them. The consumers can't put a stop to this when they're too busy trying to survive.

Right, but in order to decrease production of palm oil you need to either decrease demand or increase supply of other types of comparable oils. I'm saying that substituting palm oil for any other type of oil will incur a higher human and environmental cost in some way or other.

Public transit is an afterthought in the US because the American automotive and oil industries lobby to keep it that way so people will buy more cars and gasoline.

All bow to the mighty octopus god. He is our lord and saviour

The answer is between the two extremes you offer as a way of making it seem impossible.

And it demonstrates why we need people who care about working, not people who are just trying to find any way to strip costs from industries they’ve seen people like to consume and so have bought the rights to in order to skim money easily.

Work to live well, not to profit easily.

No, because other oils aren’t produced in such a rapaciously destructive manner.

Reduce demand, reduce supply, first law of economics.

The one thing that scares companies and governments is a well-organised boycott - it’s the one thing they can’t deal with, as has been long-demonstrated.

You just don’t want to give up your lifestyle, and have excuses that have been astroturfed for you to use.

Climate scientists disagree with you, and say that the only way to deal with climate change is for a significant reduction in peoples consumption. You’re just playing the game where you say that companies have to do it, so that they can say that consumers have to prompt them to do it, and you all carry on as though you’ve addressed the question, as the planet burns harder each year.

You’re the idiots people look back on in history and say, why didn’t they just stop doing the unnecessary social things that caused the disaster?

Reduce demand, reduce supply, the first law of economics.

Companies and governments fear boycotts more than anything.

And your idea that the problem is poor people who have no choices is ridiculous.

Stop using the poorest as a human shield for the large sector of the population that is wealthy enough to consume irresponsibly. It’s obscene.

Next time you’re on the Internet, take a look at climate science.

The Earth is literally changing to become an environment where humans will struggle to survive.

We are how the world is built and what is produced.

Look - I'll offer an olive branch here: You're right that POU is a tiny fraction of our total environmental footprint as a species (10-15% gets mentioned often). You'd be absolutely correct in saying that taking shorter showers is a drop in the bucket vs almond farming in the frickin' desert.

But all that overhead, from mining to manufacturing to shipping to that god-awful clamshell packaging (also made of oil)... Is still only because we demanded that iPhone, those almonds, that Hummer.

Not a single gigaton of supply-side emissions are because the evil manufacturing industry "wants" to make iPhones. They want to make money, and for our part, we can't throw it at them fast enough regardless of how awful their products are for the environment.

That's because the volume of production of other oils is much less. Producing the same volume of oil from other sources will consume up to 20 times the land while depriving the local community of their livelihood.

At the end of the day, I think immediate human outcomes should take priority over future sustainability considerations. Although the cost of environmental destruction should be built into the cost of goods through consumer choice, the sheer efficiency of palm oil production makes it the ideal oil producing crop.

Moreover, rainforests benefit everyone in the world but the opportunity cost of maintaining them (compared to the benefit of clearing the land for economically productive usage) is entirely on the host country. This applies to SEA and Brazil, when Reddit was outraged by the Amazon logging a few years ago. If the rest of the world enjoy the benefits of forests and biodiversity, it only makes sense for governments to pay the host countries part of the lost economic value from clearing forest land.

Name just one product that's produced solely because some stereotypical archvillain CEO wants to destroy the planet faster, rather than because we are willing to throw money at him to make it.

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Animal corpses are a global commodity. Reduced demand anywhere will reduce supply everywhere.

"I went vegan for a week and I almost died!"

You're missing the point

Same as fair trade coca - Cadbury where caught out earlier this year using child labour

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No one wants to spend a hr + driving one way to work what are you talking about? Theres a reason theres so much pushback about returning to office after lockdowns.

So much lip service so little reality. On a less related note the term “green” is freaking stupid.

It is the loss of any specific ecosystem that concerns me the most. This is one of if not the leading cause of extinction. Extinction of any species, flora or fauna, is truly a loss.

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I understand that. The extremists spin it as the depletion of all the earth's trees however.

There are few to no equivalent oils. Pig lard is close, but nobody wants that in their peanut butter...

We could decrease demand by banning it outright. It's unnecessary, and this greenwashing makes people think it's not harmful.

What do you mean?

Companies lie and mislead consumers. Greenwashing is just one of the more recent ways to do that.

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To be honest, it's hard to find cacao that doesn't involve child labor because cacao (and coca as in cocaine :/ ) is mostly coming from countries with extreme poverty and poor to absent schooling.

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> Any harvestable trees are first logged and sold worldwide, mostly to pulp paper plants in the US and Canada.

I work in the paper industry in the US and there is little to no reason to import fiber for pulp. The company I work for actually exports pulp. 100% of our fiber comes from the US. I'd wager that the paper industry in Brazil receives the majority of the locally harvested fiber if we are making baseless claims. At least my unsubstantiated claim makes economic sense.

Edit: Brazil is one of the top 10 paper producing countries. https://www.iea.org/news/iea-deepens-cooperation-with-brazil-with-new-benchmarking-report-on-the-pulp-and-paper-sector

> Any alternative will be more damaging than palm oil.

Interesting coverage of that here, with some data.

https://ourworldindata.org/palm-oil#palm-oil-versus-the-alternatives

Alright, well this is also being cause by soy so get off that high horse.

And soy also relies on killing the hell out of any local fauna.

You cannot trust a private company to do what is right. They will murder you and your family if they thought it would increase their revenue.

They don't live long enough to do anything of note.

Most soy is fed to animals

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“They’re putting things in the radiation that turns the friggin’ frogs black”

Exactly. It has nothing to do with consumer choice.

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You're rewriting history. No one demanded the iPhone.

What kind of backwards nonsense is it to claim consumers want plastic clamshell packaging? That's just profit motive. It's all supply side.

That is valid. I considered species would likely go extinct before a notable mutation would show up. The only exception might be if a species were already heading in a certain direction genetically for the last ‘X’ million years maybe it would accelerate. I’ve seen or heard several different things that made me start toying with the idea… orangutans using a spear to fish, deer behaving differently in more highly hunted areas over several generations, orcas learning to bait birds with regurgitated fish. There is still a huge gap before reasoning though.

Good point, the problem will be solved once we forcefully veganize America and Europe.

Here is a challenge for the people at home:

Step 1. Count how many pieces of clothing you own that weren't produced in a sweatshop. To clarify: This rules out any pieces produced in developing countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia etc.

Step 2. Ask yourself whether you deliberately chose to buy all the sweatshop produced clothing you own.

Step 3. Try and come up with a reason that reconciles your alleged total freedom of choice with the idea that you don't actually want to wear sweatshop produced clothing.

Soy is an even bigger commodity, and also incredibly damaging to the environment. :|

Replace those animals with soy products

And... You know what you get?

A big old nothin' burger.

You get about a tenth as much arable land used for food

Who's forcing you to drive to work? Ford? Exxon? Ammann & Apollo? And which of those is physically preventing you from biking there instead?

This has nothing to do with "want" - If you're buying the product, you're still contributing to the demand for it. Nobody "wants" to own a washing machine. Yet, virtually everyone that can afford one, does. Why? We want clean clothes - A washing machine is merely a convenient means to that end.

I don’t see Americans reducing the amount the amount of tasty animals we eat. 250 lbs/pp/year is beyond excessive, leading to massive health issues.

We love to point fingers at countries with less than half that amount of per capita consumption.