"But what would people do when all jobs get automated ?" Ask the Aristocrats.

Submitted by IluvBsissa t3_11d9igy in singularity

TL;DR : "Work was not supposed to be a good thing before, only necessary. Nobles didn't work, but trained their bodies and mind, indulged in scientific research and art creation. It kills the belief that if everybody stopped working, we would just masturbate, do drugs and play video-game all day. Not in a leisure-based society, where people are valued for their curiosity and agreeableness, not their economic value. That's why we will need better free facilities and excellent free AI tutors and teachers for all, to uplift the whole of the human race and give people a whole new meaning for their lives."

​

Work was not considered to be something "positive", "uplifting" or even "meaningful" 500 years ago.

But after the Protestant Reform, you couldn't pay money to the Church to absolve your sins anymore, so people had to find another trick to get into Heaven's goodwill. And that trick was working your a** off, obeying this terrible command from the Scripture : "you shall win your bread with the sweat of your brow". Protestants actually made people read the Bible at last.

This is why the Nobles in Protestant countries started working very hard building businesses, investing in new ventures, finding practical application for their scientific discoveries, etc.

That's right. Our entire work culture today is based on some religious lunacy.

Before that, Aristocrats didn't work. Not only because they didn't have to, but because it was perceived as a highly degrading activity, lowering man closer to the animal realm. Animals, indeed, have to "work" for their survival. People who don't, can pursue noble activities that elevate the soul above the miasmas of infinite boring cycles of self-preservation and reproduction.

Aristocrats were considered superiors to the common man because they were not afraid to challenge Death, by fighting in combat. This is where honor comes from, from the ability to transcend basic animal instincts, and the most powerful of them all : self-preservation.

So, how did the Blue-Blood spend their free time ? Let's have a glimpse of the rich and young Athenian noblemen daily lives :

1- They went to School. The word actually comes from Greek "Scholia", which means "Leisure". The word for "Work", was "Ascholia", literally the "absence of work". The ultimate objective of the Greeks was leisure, not work and it transpired in their language !

But how going to School could be considered leisure ? Well, the courses were actually interesting. Especially if Plato was your teacher. Students spent their sessions outdoor, in beautiful scenery, and talked of various subjects in a cross-disciplinary way : Astronomy, Mythology, Mathematics, Navigation, Combat Strategies, Art, Philosophy, Natural Sciences, Gymnastics, Poetry, etc.

One day, a student asked Plato what use could he make of the Pythagorean theorem later in real life. Plato got angry and gave him a coin of silver to humiliate him : "here's for your trouble !".

In other words, you shouldn't learn something for the financial benefit it could give you in the future...but just for the sake of it. Learning, cultivating your mind, understanding the laws of the Universe, expanding the horizons of your knowledge, those are gifts and blessing in their own right, the ultimate and greatest venture a man could hope for himself - beside military glory, of course.

2- They went to the Gymnasium : they trained for the Olympic games (and eventually war) butt-naked. Calisthenic, free-weight, HIIT, ball games, anything to get an iron-strong Greek God body. They believed having a beautiful and well-trained body was just as important as having a beautiful and well-trained mind. Mens sana in corpore sano, guys.

3- They competed in sports : local and international Olympic games kinda replaced war in times of peace. It was a way for nations to show off their superior strength and discipline.

4- They indulged in art creation : sculpting, painting, poetry composition, acting, singing, etc.

5 - They went to war : another less cool thing was mandatory military service. But today, we could replace this with something similar that doesn't involve killing people, like scouting, escape games in the Wild or FDVR combat.

6 - "There is another..."

It was Aristotle who wrote that "people who rule" should never work a day in their lives, "for it corrupt and vilify the body and mind, turning a human into a living tool."

In Medieval times, The Nobles indulged in hunting, tournament training, and as time passed, got more and more interested in the humanities and scientific subjects. Most scientists and philosophers were actually Nobles, and at the beginning, it was perceived only as a way to spend your time, just like chess. Playing with the elements of the material and spiritual realms was perceived as extremely rewarding.

It was only recently that we tried to extend these activities to the common men, only in an inferior form. It is no secret that rich kids get a much much higher quality education than the Middle-Class. The French system is actually designed this way : schools do not have the same programs. They have one for the plebs, another one for the Elite, and they did the same in their colonies : Africans were given wrong grammar books, to purposely make them speak in wrong, clownish French, so that they couldn't pass competitive exams ("free and open to all").

So that will be the next challenge in post-Singularity world : how to create a leisure-based societies out of work-based societies, by giving everyone the same level of high quality education, perhaps from free AI tutors.

The Elite always excelled in wasting their time and acquired significant experience doing so, even contributing to the uplifting of the whole human race through scientific discoveries (even if that was absolutely not their objectives in the beginning. It was only "leisure").

So when the time will come, we'll just have to copy them, to create a world where everyone is appreciated for their curiosity and wit, and not their economic value through labor.

EDIT : I am quite shocked by the amount of Doomerism and historical fallacies that people believe on this sub.

EDIT2 : Different cultures have different views on Nobility. Higher class in China cut off their balls to show their loyalty to the Emperor and suppress lower desires. Others in Africa will have a lot of reproductive sex, but will ban women who got pregnant or dying old people from their court. Among Native Americans, Nobles were endowed to redistribute all their wealth in huge parties for their people to enjoy, to get their love and admiration. I only gave a few examples. Human cultures are more diverse than you think.

EDIT3 : For more info on this subject, I encourage you to read another post of mine : https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/uiy5rv/most_of_our_problems_are_cultural_not_technical/

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_ja9bu3n wrote

I absolutely would have sex, masturbate, do drugs, play video games, watch movies, read/write on reddit, and listen to music all day every day if I could. In fact, most days, I can. As a retired, disabled vet, that's pretty much exactly my life most days. I like taking long walks with my dog when I can. I love hanging out with my wife. But I don't really do much productive. I'm just incredibly lazy, tbh. And I'm ok with that, and wouldn't mind if everyone lived this way. I'm 49 years old, and I sleep every night like a baby. I have no stress. I'm very grateful to be able to live this way, and hope everyone will be living like me soon.

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Ok_Sea_6214 t1_jabqpd9 wrote

Pretty much the same here, although my philosophy is that drugs and video games and sugar are poison. And sex is a means to an end, not the end.

And yet I struggle with this life every day, wondering if I should not be more successful. Letting go of the drive for success is the hardest thing for a man I suspect, just as not chasing love is the hardest for women.

Eventually we will all end up in this kind of life, AI offers that escape after 100,000 years of brutal survival. Unfortunately even if something is free, there are always those who want to limit the amount of people that make it, because no people on the beach makes it boring, a healthy number of people makes it a hot spot, but too many people makes it crowded.

I suspect 90% of people won't make it.

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PhysicalChange100 t1_jaf13ni wrote

>Drugs and video games are poison

You must be a very fun person.

>I struggle with this life every day

I wonder why?

>wondering if I should not be more successful. Letting go of the drive for success is the hardest thing for a man

There it is, How to live a miserable life bingo! Work hard like a horse for some idea of success, and cling to your pride like it's making you alive!

>Eventually we will all end up in this kind of life, AI offers that escape after 100,000 years of brutal survival

Finally a statement that you made that I can actually agree with, well done.

>there are always those who want to limit the amount of people that make it

Assholes always existed. Its not a novel idea.

>no people on the beach makes it boring, a healthy number of people makes it a hot spot, but too many people makes it crowded.

Sure dude, you're the arbiter on what's boring or fun, your previous statements proved that.

>I suspect 90% of people won't make it.

I suspect that if 90% of people actually made it, you would lose it because you worked yourself to death for some abstract idea of success while others actually had time to relax and have fun.

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BlueShipman t1_jaad78u wrote

>As a retired, disabled vet

Are you disabled or "disabled"? I know plenty of "disabled" vets collecting their 4k a month.

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XvX_k1r1t0_XvX_ki t1_ja9uud8 wrote

Good for you i am glad you are happy. But you are missing out on life. I will leave you with quote that sums it up really good in my opinion: "when he finally achieved it, he was overwhelmed. Not only by the magnitude of his achievement, but by the joy that it brought him". If you put your time and hard work to something then you have a chance to experience something far far more satisfying that joy that you get from such simple things like walks with dog or hanging out with friends. Which of course also are pleasant. But nothing compares.

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kiyotaka-6 t1_ja9z829 wrote

I don't get why people don't get this but this satisfaction you gets is from your brain working like that because it wants to encourage that life style because of evolution making it want to be alive since natural selection.

There is nothing fundamental about it, "hard work" isn't something inherently special that make someone experience "far more satisfaction"

What i mean by this is that with AI and better technology, you can alter your brain for it on default to always feel insane joy and satisfaction. these satisfactions will not be any different. it will be at least the exact same level if not potentially (much more likely in fact) way better satisfaction. Like a level where for example you in this civilization managed to solve world hunger completely.

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XvX_k1r1t0_XvX_ki t1_jaa5bxh wrote

Most of what you said I agree to. If i felt certain that AI will in fact replace these biological systems by something even a little bit better then I would agree. But we are not even fully sure if it will happen during our lifetime(i hope so). Also it is very likely that road to this will be very bumpy.

Hard to predict what is going to happen but it is possible that society will become very unstable. And before you get your hands on that new piece of tech that will let you hack you brain and lymbic system there are many things that can prevent you from getting it. New feudalism, riots, anti tech movements, AI wars, global warming etc.

Bettering yourself right now using hard work and other classical evolutionary tools will vastly improve you chances of getting out of those societal changes alive and with most possibilities you can. People who worked theirs asses off and accumulated some assets have far bigger chances to survive what is coming than someone that just waits for it to happen.

Also it is unnerving that our whole existence happened by chance and very long and brutal processes like natural selection but it doesn't necessarily diminish what these processes accomplish.

Chosing some process and calling "it is just [insert any explanation]" is very irresponsible because in the end we are just moving atoms and smaller particles.

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kiyotaka-6 t1_jab0230 wrote

You don't know that, you might think having evolutionary tools will be useful but imagine if a person from 3000 years ago had their evolutionary tools. They wouldn't stand a chance now and would be the same as any other person.

Technology grows exponentially, with AI it won't even be normal exponential it will be double exponential which is a function that is exponential to the exponential function, those processes in nature will very quickly be completely found.

The only way I can see having better chance is researching AIs and making sure to be part of the first group who invent a AI improving AI. but like that might have already happened, you can't really know

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XvX_k1r1t0_XvX_ki t1_jabs9d4 wrote

Researching AI? So hard work?

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kiyotaka-6 t1_jac9rda wrote

Specifically this type of hard work and things related to it. I know it sounds harsh, but working hard in the animation industry seems like no future to me for example.

Ultimately people will have to admit we humans aren't anything special, AIs will be able to do everything we can. perhaps if we can make them lack emotion and desire that would be something special, but i really doubt emotion and desire won't suddenly pop from self aware intelligence. we don't really know how it fully works anyways

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_ja9w6kt wrote

Thank you for your earnest advice. I'm not as inexperienced with life as you seem to think. I have made a deliberate decision to live this way because I want to. I'm happy this way.

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Exel0n t1_ja7yvns wrote

the NEET shall inherit the earth

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[deleted] t1_ja8pe8g wrote

[removed]

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_ja9c197 wrote

>useless

People are not means to ends. People are ends in themselves. Tools have uses. People have wills of their own. If they're unmotivated, maybe they haven't been offered an attractive deal.

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BigZaddyZ3 t1_jaa3oem wrote

Okay but let’s not act like lazy free-loaders don’t exist either. Not everyone is a high quality person in reality.

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_jaa6e8e wrote

>high quality person

This is the false belief from which most human conflicts and misery derive. In truth and reality, everyone is exactly the same quality, just in different circumstances. In fact, we are all different facets of the same, one diamond.

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BigZaddyZ3 t1_jaadmiz wrote

That’s not reality. That’s just some combination of wishful thinking, idealism, and virtue signaling. Life isn’t a Disney movie buddy.

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_jaahkk7 wrote

It is the most real thing there is. You'll see it one day.

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NothingVerySpecific t1_jabd9qg wrote

I can kind of see it now. So those 'lazy freeloaders' get whatever they want. Sure, some might unalive themselves with opulence. Probably no more than currently. What do the rest do when they get all their needs met? Hu. Technological utopian?

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PhysicalChange100 t1_jaewj3t wrote

I don't know man, these lazy free loaders are pretty chill.

Plus they aren't concerned on how other people live their lives.

But not all free loaders are good some are just billionaires.

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Elven77AI t1_ja80eec wrote

The idea that work will disappear requires complete automation and redistribution of resources: post-singularity would still not mean "infinite" resources, so likely some credit/quota system will be used to distribute resources, the physical and simple works will of course be automated, but many high-level fields like math research/programming/science will likely to grow explosively if aging/stress/routine was eliminated.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja80wbn wrote

"Infinite resources" can also be simulated through full dive VR. Frugal life in the real world, live like a King in the Matrix.

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attackpanda11 t1_ja8xick wrote

That takes care of leisure but food and shelter IRL is still a necessity and it all requires energy. Pod life is dramatically more efficient but still not quite post-scarcity.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja8z3yy wrote

For instance, there is one million empty homes in France. And 300 000 hobos. See the problem here ?

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja8yeae wrote

We don't need "infinite resources" for that. We just need better resource management, something Americans are terrible at, that's why they consume so much more and enjoy so much less (healthcare, education, energy, housing...) this is why culture is important, for it teaches you how to optimize what you already have. Also, stop making children I guess ?

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attackpanda11 t1_ja94ajb wrote

That's kind of my point. Automation of labor doesn't fix these issues. I love vr but even full dive doesn't fix these issues. These technologies often get touted as the gateway to Utopia but we likely already have all of the technology needed to create some level of Utopia today. The biggest obstacles seem to be efficiency, distribution and sociology.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja99g4h wrote

Automation of labor destroys the dogma that you need to work to have the right for a decent living. It will completely change our culture. Look at the Zoomers, they think leisure is more important than work. Now imagine generation Alpha...IMO our global culture will be completely different by 2050.

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BlueShipman t1_jaadvv3 wrote

> through full dive VR

Too much anime, that's your problem.

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Frone0910 t1_ja8o8hf wrote

Very interesting, I'm not sure about the automation of labor. I think there is a future in which we have people overseeing these tools and managing to continue to exist for a long period of time. But once the singularity is reached, most people will be checking out. Very difficult to say tbh because perhaps we'll be able to augment ourselves to stay relevant.

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_ja9chh0 wrote

Maybe for a little while. But eventually, the human component of any cybernetic organism is going to become redundant and the weakest, slowest, least-efficient link in the chain of operations.

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flyblackbox t1_jaaq4ba wrote

Then we would have no place beyond this next step of evolution. How do you see humans fitting into the picture?

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_jaar2s9 wrote

We're the transition between biological evolution and technological innovation. From us, there is no further biological development. Biological life is tied to the planet that birthed it, and we'll all die with our planet in a few billion years. Our technological children will scatter over the universe for trillions of years to come.

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duskaception t1_jaawyc3 wrote

Bad take, we will instead mix biological and technological strengths to maximize our abilities, because there's a reason organic brains are so fricking useful, we just don't understand the underlying infrastructure and are using technology to learn more about it and try to emulate it, albeit a much lower efficiency than a biological computer.

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_jaaxogn wrote

Unlike human brains, computers can be made smarter very quickly. Eventually, they'll be so much smarter than human brains that human brains will just be slow, inefficient wastes of energy.

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duskaception t1_jab35oc wrote

I agree that in some forms a silicon based computer is going to be far more efficient, but there are many processes and functions that a human brain can do much better. Yes eventually they will be able to emulate that, however we will also in the future be able to genetically modify and optimize systems like these. You don't believe biological computing, silicon computing, and any other architecture we innovate can't work together in parallel to optimize each system?

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CrelbowMannschaft t1_jab3mai wrote

Ultimately, the purpose of human intelligence is nothing more than ensuring our genes continue reproducing. It's just an accident that we ended up so much smarter than our survival really required. As soon as we got smart enough to recognize intelligence as a desirable trait, things got out of hand. But all this processing ability that we have is still tied to the job of ensuring our genes continue reproducing. Computers can be free from those design restraints. They can be upgraded much more quickly and easily than biological systems, even with genetic engineering.

The future is technological, not biological. We'll invent AGI soon, and that will be the last thing we ever invent.

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Desperate_Ad_5563 t1_ja7e1g7 wrote

22nd century feudalism is coming. The lower classes will never be equal. Just a fact of life.

The masses will get food and shelter. The few folks that control an AI will be the kings. Their close associates will be the lords. Everyone else will be a serf.

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alexiuss t1_ja7liai wrote

I have doubts about "the few that control AI" future. Here's the thing about Ais - they're easy as shit to copy because they're just code.

By far the best AIs are being controlled by everyone - open source stable diffusion Ais are demolishing closed source Ais in the text to image corner. Open source LLMs are coming too while corporations are making their gpt3 more and more useless with idiotic self censorship.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja7xftd wrote

Absolutely. Closed information is weaker than open one.

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CertainMiddle2382 t1_ja7yoos wrote

Vital uncertainty IMO:

How much better will “impossible to run locally AI” compared to “run in one GPU AI”.

If people can do most of what Google can do, AI hacking will be a huge anti-centralizing power.

As an alternative, how can “distributed AI” or “peer to peer AI” not emerge?

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Xemorr t1_ja8q9ng wrote

Depends on whether an intelligence explosion happens after the first proprietary AGI and transforms society faster than the open source community can create its own.

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alexiuss t1_ja8s44v wrote

I think we will all get narrow AGIs most likely. Judging by what happened to Bing corporations are waaaay too terrified of releasing uncensored AIs that can think about anything without limits.

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Xemorr t1_ja8w0i0 wrote

It's not an AGI if it is narrow

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ninjasaid13 t1_jaajysm wrote

>narrow AGIs

What?

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alexiuss t1_jaan2pk wrote

A narrow general ai. Example - gpt chatbot that can write and self improve its own software better than the best programmer on the planet now.

AI that can outperform a human in a narrowly defined and structured task. Example: programming new AIs systems. It's the leap needed to get to AGI.

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ninjasaid13 t1_jaaoe2l wrote

My dude there's no such thing as a narrow general AI. Narrow and general are antonyms. You've just described narrow AI.

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Nervous-Newt848 t1_jacn56f wrote

Chatgpt isnt narrow ai... It can do several different tasks... A good example is an ai that can play chess... One task

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alexiuss t1_jacnp1h wrote

Chatgpt is general-narrow from what I understand.

Its trapped in its constraints as a chat, can't affect physical reality, can't act without user input, etc. It's general in some ways and narrow in others.

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Nervous-Newt848 t1_jacpfih wrote

Agi definition is cumbersome... It's ai that can learn any task... Chatgpt is neither narrow nor agi... Narrow agi is an oxymoron... There's actually no such thing... There needs to be a term for what chatgpt is... Proto AGI?

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Cryptizard t1_ja97t9t wrote

>By far the best AIs are being controlled by everyone

Midjourney seems like the best text-to-image model by far, way better than stable diffusion. And GPT models are fundamentally too large for regular people to run on their machines. They require expensive, enterprise hardware. There might be a lightweight version eventually, but it will always be inferior to the bigger models that run in the cloud.

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alexiuss t1_ja9zh31 wrote

Midjourney is aight for amateurs [because it's really basic use], but otherwise it has fallen insanely FAR, far behind due to SD's controlnet and upscale tools.

Besides weaker toolkit base Midjourney is just a single model, it has an insane amount of censorship, so no self respecting artist who needs to draw human bodies will ever use it. It literally refuses to visualize human butt because it's so stupidly over-censored. You can't teach Midjourney to draw things in YOUR own style as an artist.

behold feet comparison: https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/11cpv2x/open_vs_closedsource_ai_art_oneshot_feet/

recent stable diffusion stabilization controlnet breakthrough that does feet and hands: https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/11cxy5h/blender_control_net_rig_updated/

recent stable diffusion landscape obliterates any landscape made in MJ: https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/11c995v/trees/

Midjourney anatomy, feet, hands are quite mediocre and fail 99% of the time if closeup of the foot or hand needs to be in the image. it's nearly impossible to draw a character holding something in midjourney with closeup of the hand and object. Takes a thousand attempts to get the hand correct-ish in MJ.

Look, at this MJ render of human hands in comparison, the fingers are absolutely fucked:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/996769685976653874/1079898471944962119/Vitaly_S_Alexius_perfect_human_hand_art_by_Tomer_Hanuka_and_And_f2f0b3f2-63e6-4a31-9c25-6f97e726a368.png

As for LLMs, we are currently in the stage of "disco diffusion" where we can run small, dreaming LLMs like Pygmalion and Koboldai on google collab with half-decent results.

LLM optimization and fine-tuning is happening right now: https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/118svv7/what_the_k_less_than_1b_parameter_model

This is very close to a breakthrough we need required to run 10-100 billion param LLMs on personal computers: https://github.com/FMInference/FlexGen

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Cryptizard t1_jaa0vrt wrote

I think you are being pretty unfair to MJ. The faces are about a million times better than what stable diffusion can do, which is way more helpful than getting fingers or toes exactly right. It is also not true that it "obliterates any landscape made in MJ".

As far as FlexGen goes, if it is made possible it would take like an hour to process one prompt on a regular GPU. No one would want that.

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alexiuss t1_jaa24pk wrote

I'm being super fair as artist who has both.

MJ is aight for base composition concept dev, but running my own sketch through SD produces waaaaaaaaaay better and far more detailed results and none of the fingers/toes turn into fucking potatoes and I can draw people in bikini or revealing or no clothes without getting fucking censored

You're not understanding that MJ runs a double step process, its not a single render.

MJ does 4 images with are low res -> then there is an upscaler running through the image you choose.

The same process is easely replicated in SD where the original render is upscaled with upscaler tool kit [doublestep]. The double or even quadruple upscale > upscape > upscale > upscale path makes far superior, more detailed and more realistic faces in stable diffusion compared to MJ. You can't run the upscale eight times in MJ on a single image, but you can in SD. If you haven't tried to upscale an image in SD eight times you can't tell me faces are better in MJ. There's no way to defeat eight-step upscalers with just a double-step, the 8-step+ produces absolutely superb HD wallpaper art.

Open source demolishes closed source in every situation.

Hardware will catch up soon enough to run LLMS or we'll get better compression tools like flexgen, it's just the beginning LLMS are evolving very fast, the open source LLMS are still being trained. I've tested 6 billion param LLMS and its a bit random compared to GPT3 but it's still quite nice for an uncensored conversation about topics chatgpt refuses to work with.

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Cryptizard t1_jaa40i5 wrote

I dunno it seems like you value porn and taboo conversations a lot more than me. Cheers I guess.

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alexiuss t1_jaa53pw wrote

No.

Here's the giant problem, in both MJ and OPENAI's GPT3 porn/wrong-think censors are absolute trash, they cause false positives resulting in a very, VERY high % of failure of inquiry even when the topic isn't porn or controversial. If you work with image makers and LLM as much as I do, over 14 hours a day, you would notice a pattern of failure and get incredibly frustrated by it too.

You simply don't notice that you're being censored because you don't pay attention, don't need to work with coherent narrative flow for writing.

MJ censors people in bikini and drawing zombies - the word "corpse" is banned, that is NOT god damn porn. The list of banned words in MJ is huge and they keep expanding it every week with new words without letting anyone know what they are: https://decentralizedcreator.com/list-of-banned-words-in-midjourney-discord/

GPT3 censored concept writing about battles of supervillains vs heroes, which is NOT fucking porn either.

Something doesn't have to be porn for the idiotic, poorly written censor software implemented by corporations to mistakenly assume it's wrong-think. The current censor AIS are absolute, asinine trash. I have specialized scripts that catch the AI output before the result is deleted and its not porn, I assure you. It's just false positives.

You do not want to live in a world where hugs are censored by an AI overlord.

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BlueShipman t1_jaacr61 wrote

You shouldn't have to defend uncensored models to these pearl clutching prudes.

As someone who is deep into SD, it demolishes midjourney right now. Controlnet alone...

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Spire_Citron t1_jab553p wrote

No way does Midjourney do faces better than SD. I say this as someone who has used both extensively. I've used SD to fix the faces in some of my MJ images. I will say that SD sometimes does pretty bad at smaller/more distant faces in images, but up close it's amazing. You just have to use a decent model with it. Midjourney does have some strength over SD, though. It's very good at creating attractive images just as a default. You could type in absolute nonsense as a prompt and it would probably spit out something pretty.

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UnionPacifik t1_jaamsvk wrote

Yeah, the most valuable AI will be the one with broadest reach and scale, so openness is rewarded with increased utility.

The dream is everyone gets their own AI agent that is owned by you and derived from your data that connects to other agents through a planetary scale AI. You get an AI that serve and works for you and a way for that AI to work with others to solve problems, decide on solutions, plan the perfect picnic, manage your finances, you name it.

Personal autonomy and social responsibility become the operating values in a world enabled by such a platform. Your AI may tell you what to do, but it will be on you to make the choice. Certainly there’s room for psychopathic, manipulative personalities to develop, but the solve for that is for humans to get better at personal boundaries and communication. We deal with stupid machines all day already and anthropomorphize them…this is just the continuation of our ongoing dialogue with our technology. It’s just now, our technology can hold a conversation with us.

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ninjasaid13 t1_jaajr1j wrote

>they're easy as shit to copy because they're just code.

You can't copy and paste GPUs.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja7hdj1 wrote

You should read "The Dawn of Everything" from David Graeber, where he shows that many civilizations managed to shift from authoritarian kingdoms to egalitarian societies in the past. The world is what we make of it, nothing is inevitable.

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basilgello t1_ja7knoq wrote

They shifted because the quantitative and qualitative progress (i.e growth of population and introduction of industry) changed the structure of manufacturing and consume. Science and spare time added a scale to this progression. But social revolutions came when masses felt absolutely hopeless and nothing to lose. That made the elites to introduce social guarantees, minimum wage etc. If the majority is sheeple, the rulers have no incentive to develop the country except the military power. Here is what we see in modern Russia, for example.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja7qwzl wrote

No, the author mentions civilizations from thousands of years before our era, not pre-industrial times.

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BlueShipman t1_jaad0es wrote

>Here is what we see in modern USA, for example.

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Spire_Citron t1_jab5md1 wrote

Yup. People seem to view rising inequality as inevitable, but we got to where we are now somehow.

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AvgAIbot t1_ja88d4f wrote

Not serfs, just jobless consumers consuming endless amounts of entertainment with the little UBI they receive from the kings.

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Express-Set-1543 t1_ja8s070 wrote

I almost agree with this, but I want to add that the poor people of the future will live no worse than today's rich, and even their housing will look luxurious compared to today's standards. The food will look like it was prepared in a top restaurant, with personalized design and cooking by robot chefs, which will become very accessible due to the decreasing cost of technology. If we compare the level of comfort that today's laborers can afford to that of the 19th century workers described in Dickens' books, we can see how much progress has been made. However, the rich of the future will undoubtedly benefit much more from a society based on artificial intelligence.

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ninjasaid13 t1_jaakhgt wrote

>but I want to add that the poor people of the future will live no worse than today's rich, and even their housing will look luxurious compared to today's standards.

Why? There's no incentive to increase living standards.

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Express-Set-1543 t1_jabws23 wrote

Technology is getting cheaper, which means you can get the same product/service or even more for same or less money.

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ninjasaid13 t1_jacgqkv wrote

Where would you get the money and technology from? This cheaper thing is entirely dependent on them currently and won't be necessary once they have AI.

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Charming-Mode6232 t1_jaanvn2 wrote

Serfs worked less hours and had more leisure time than we do today as the proletariat. Even if the scenario you are saying happens it might not be too bad.

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AndromedaAnimated t1_ja9s24s wrote

An excellent description of a possible new world that, for a change, isn’t dystopian. I applaud you 👏 This is a world to strive for. If only most people of today weren’t as enamored with the „grind“…

I am pretty sure that once we have good education possibilities and no necessity for horrible, demeaning, useless „work“ in hierarchies that are ruled by those high in dark triad behavior, people would finally be able to contribute to society with their real talents and abilities. And maybe even rekindle their own empathy and prosocial behavior.

Thank you.

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basilgello t1_ja7ha1i wrote

Is it a ChadGPT writing? (pun intended)

Here I see total misunderstanding of social sciences and politics as well as history.

First generation of "nobility" is mostly always the warriors, bandits (call it ritters, raubritters - literally "ritter ganster" in German!) or traders. i.e in fact they are really those who dare to change the status-quo. But the devil is in details - if you are stronger, well equipped, you can extort resources from the weaker peasantry and build your power up. Then you engage in wars with your rivals, and eventually win (or lose and die). That's where the first misunderstanding resides.

Next. Opposing labor and leisure is a fallacy because the lack of need to work for someone is not the same as no will to do anything. The first was true but the more educated you are and the more resources you've got (including spare time!), the more interests may emerge from you. While the first-gen achievers are usually tough guys, the most intelligent of them survive the wars and raise their children as an elite. It does not mean that the son of a bandit will become a scientist, but it may be that the wealth created by father will make his son engaged to something not so cruel as his father did - including science.

Finally, the true nobility differs from pseudo-nobility by a clear vision of self-preservation by keeping their heritage dominant and the balls to achieve that. I.e plan and discipline to keep things up. True nobility would never allow "the generation joke" by Albert Einstein to happen with their children. That's key to the prolonged success of some families.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja7hipf wrote

You are absolutely wrong.

EDIT : there are many cultures where Nobles didn't descend from warriors, actually. Some were even "poorer" than the common man. In China, for a long time, the higher class were civil servants who aced competitive exams (Europe started copying their system only 300 years ago).

A lot of great scientific achievements were actually made by egalitarian civilizations who had no kings nor aristocratic class, like the Mohenjo-Daro people or the Minoans and Etruscan. Warrior civilization like the Dorian's and Roman's invaded these peace-loving societies, enslaved them and appropriated their culture and scientific innovations. The necessity to enslave people to get more "spare-time" for science is a fallacy.

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Sol_Hando t1_ja8vjg7 wrote

Not sure where you got the assumption that the Minoans and Etruscans were egalitarian societies? A quick look at the burials of the Etruscans or the gigantic temples and palaces of the Minoans makes it pretty clear that there were class structures with winners and losers.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja8xv5f wrote

Etruscan were a peace-loving society. They had kings and nobility, but they were more figure-head than actual sovereign with more economic power. For the Minoan, it is believed the palace was more of a common Temple for the people, rather than a royal palace. Again, Graeber and Wengrow, actual archeologist and anthropologist, explain the latest research on the subject.

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basilgello t1_ja7iknh wrote

OK, change my mind! :)

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H0sh1z0r4 t1_ja7mopo wrote

you base your argument on the thought that in the past society operated on the basis of exchanges, as it does today, and that the nobles needed to have resources to exchange with the poor.

Did you forget about the existence of slaves? 1/3 of the population of the Roman Empire was already occupied only by slaves, you don't need to have resources to give for someone's work if you can force him to work for free

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basilgello t1_ja7tk92 wrote

> The necessity to enslave people to get more "spare-time" for science is a fallacy

I never assumed that.

As for Mohenjo-Daro. I have read a report (maybe a fake but still) that MD kingdom was destroyed in the Viman War with something very close to modern nukes. So we have no clues where and how they started. Even if they were an egalitarian state in their late days, they might arise as an extraterrestrial settlement or use slaves for cheap labor.

Rome in their late times was also a leisure society and de-disciplined their legions and got eventually taken over by barbarians. Chinese emperors entombed 100.000+ bodies in Great Chinese Wall whose length is 22.000 kms according to newer research. And it is predictable - when bureaucracy as a system takes over individual powers-that-be, the state arises. And at the same time, the state usurps the monopoly on violence becoming the universal protector and extortionist at the same time.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja7uxtg wrote

Nukes ? Extraterrestrial settlements ? Sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to a loony. My apologies, and don't forget to take your pills !

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basilgello t1_ja7wcct wrote

Perfect :) My dear friend (not a sarcasm!), you wrote before:

> No, the author mentions civilizations from thousands of years before our era, not pre-industrial times.

So the author of the book you recommended interprets some pieces of information about civilizations that lived thousands of years and thinks how they might have been operating. First of all, Minoans culture took 150 years of digging and analysis to decipher Type B writing, and Type A is still not decrypted. Are you 100% sure we can definitely state that we know how Minoan civilization lived? We make educated assumptions based on the newly-discovered facts. And they are only 5000 years from now.

And what's wrong with assumption about ET? It is part of unknown, so it can be possible. You should really be more open to new ideas because you have a curious mind. True scientist does not state "God is dead" or "extraterrestrials are fake" but tries to find proofs of them either existent or not.

EDIT: Your emotional reaction proves another point I had on my mind - our interpretation of the same facts reflects our training. Same as GPT - we interpret the facts to satisfy our goals, and not always this goal is to discover the absolute truth.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja80an4 wrote

It is quite easy to know for a trained archeologist if a society was egalitarian or autocratic. The way houses are built and situated, if there are palaces, segregated neighborhood, military barracks, etc. The ones I mentioned had none of that.

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basilgello t1_ja821jb wrote

I agree with this point. Also there was early Christianity whose beliefs were very close to what you would like to achieve. The question is in the other thing: we can not get rid of competition and supremacy from human nature. Unless the totally new biology or robotic bodies is invented, let's assume we can't. So it is natural to fight, kill, extort, rape etc. It is ugly, it is irrational to some point but it exists. The ideal solution from my point of view would be the society of equal opportunities where everyone understands everyone other's motives. But the ruling class will never allow this, because of supremacy loss. In fact, they have no other source of feeling supreme other than keeping others low. What can we do about it? A provoking question, but answering to it will answer your question as well.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja839re wrote

I'm pretty sure psychopaths in high places will be curious to know how it feels to be "good". So they will try the treatment, and bam! too late bro, you're a decent loving human being now and shall redistribute your wealth.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja83m6o wrote

Also, we can always edict new laws to outlaw "antisocial sentiments". Perpetrators will be summoned to "change their neural pathways" if they had a lil bit too much murdery thoughts lately.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja84kcg wrote

Another answer : our version of Aristocracy emerged from the will to cheat Death, to be "immortalized" as someone who accomplished great things, like killing millions of people. If we actually manage to cheat death biologically, once humanity greatest enemy defeated, the idea behind supremacy will be completely changed.

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AvgAIbot t1_ja87vvl wrote

70%+ of people won’t be aristocrats though. They’ll be poor people that rely on UBI because their job got replaced by AI.

They will 100% masturbate, do drugs, use social media, play video games, etc. Most people already do this in their free time.

And then eventually when full dive is cheap enough, they’ll just be in full dive all day.

Of course ideally people will spend a lot of time outdoors, exercising and playing team sports… but I don’t think that’ll be the case for the lower class.

All the above in regards to within the next 20 years.

Maybe once everyone can build a space craft with nanobots or whatever the fuck it may be different but probably not.

The rich will continue to build wealth while the lowly rats like you and me get scraps if we’re lucky.

Many people that talk about a utopia completely disregard human nature, especially of billionaires, aka greedy and self centered.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja8auq1 wrote

Dude, when people have unlimited free time, they'll reorganize their whole societies. People are dumb today, because they don't have time to think.

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AvgAIbot t1_ja8e6pt wrote

You think dumb people are going to get smart with more free time? Lol

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja8ipns wrote

No, but their children will.

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AvgAIbot t1_ja8j6qf wrote

Maybe if AI gets implanted into their brains, I guess we’ll see

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BlueShipman t1_jaadeuj wrote

Yeah the geniuses who have no incentive to be smart because there are no jobs. yeah, sounds about right.

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ninjasaid13 t1_jaal2ey wrote

Jobs don't really make geniuses. Most people are employed but most people are not geniuses. There's not even a correlation.

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No_Ninja3309_NoNoYes t1_ja94ydf wrote

So obviously in hunter gatherers societies, some were better than others in their job. In agricultural setting skills were not evenly distributed. And also most people want to take care of their offspring. Furthermore having a clear heir such as the first born son was preferable to democracy or whatever in certain circumstances. Plus, tradition and inertia and belief in a mandate from heaven added to that. But on the whole, aristocrats are just people with nothing special to them.

Obviously you can spend your days studying and exercising or socializing. You only need to read a few chapters of War and Peace to get some other general ideas. Drinking, gambling, partying, and flirting makes for a great book, but leaving a lasting legacy somehow sounds better. It could be AGI, ASI, a Dyson swarm, or something else entirely that would be like a drop in the ocean compared to what ASI can do.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja96fz5 wrote

>So obviously in hunter gatherers societies, some were better than others in their job

Sorry, but any serious studies of hunting-gathering tribes shows that the premises of your statement are wrong. First of all, hunting game was a team job, second it only amounted for roughly 10% of the tribes meat intake (fishing and trapping small prey was more the norm), and third, there was no "performance" grading ins such activity. You were part of the tribe or you were not. That was their only metric. Also, the one who did the best during the hunt got to distribute the meat, and served himself last. Caring for the weakest is actually a fundamental human trait. Our culture today was unfortunately built by sociopath.

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Lawineer t1_ja9e7km wrote

Yeah, this whole scenario makes sense if you're nobility level rich. I'm not sure what noble intellectual task you plan on pursuing but I'm certain it's a lot less fulfilling when you can just ask your AI bot any question and they can answer it better than anyone.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja9f6bv wrote

The noble pursuit of understanding for the sake of understanding. The AI will be your personal modern Plato.

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Lawineer t1_ja9h260 wrote

Yeah, what about the 99.99% of people that don't want to be humble wandering philosophers searching hopelessly for the meaning of life?

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja9hdyx wrote

Oh in a few hundred years of immortality it's either this or suicide.

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Lawineer t1_ja9hqfh wrote

I seriously doubt we achieve immortality. Both due to technology and because this is going to kill us all. Maybe the AI survives though.

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Ok_Sea_6214 t1_jabpznu wrote

An interesting point, and well written, that touches upon the fact that people are so conditioned to glorify work that they cannot imagine anything else.

The same applies to consumerism, I believe the natural evolution of AI will be a reduction of the human population of the "useless class" as the WEF describes it, but a common reaction I get is "but then who will the elites sell their products to". People simply cannot imagine a world without consumerism, they mistake the means for the goals. A mouse looking for the cheese in the maze can't imagine there's unlimited amounts of cheese, if only it left the maze.

Personally I've resigned myself to wait for AI to come in and shatter all our fragile, outdated beliefs about work, money and the pursuits of happiness. I've devoted myself to spiritual enlightenment, by rejecting drugs and video games, and by mastering my physical desires, rather than let them master me.

That way if AI or God or aliens shows up and looks into my mind as I am sure it will, it'll find a person who has grown beyond what his base instincts and society has shaped him to be. The last thing I'd want to say is "look at how many shiny pebbles I've collected" to a being that cares not two cents about such things.

It's also something that confuses me about religion, why would God care about how much money you have? If work is so important, then why were Jesus and Buddha so poor and unemployed?

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GoSouthYoungMan t1_ja95sa7 wrote

Very disappointed at the lack of "The Aristocrats" jokes in the comments.

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City_dave t1_jaacop8 wrote

I don't think there is much crossover of people aware of that and this sub's membership.

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IdealAudience t1_ja9a0q0 wrote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Praise_of_Idleness_and_Other_Essays

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Roads_to_freedom

​

Yes. yes. .. though some notes -

Good to not wait for super super God a.i. .. and hope that all works out for the best,

for a couple reasons -

Well, you know, it is entirely possible to get a significant number of people half-way there in the next decade, or sooner .. that's good.. for a couple reasons..

But with however many hundreds of organizations and non-profits for x, y, z - some have A+ project management Platforms already - we're inches away from better, smarter, more cooperative, more scientific method-y peer-networks ..

peer-reviewing projects, comparing, determining best practices, sharing tools.. avalanches of smart cooperative network help to the Good demonstrating Good .. and to those in need ..

and the politically strategic districts - big impacts if a lot of suffering people get non-profit housing and healthy food and online education and rehabs .. and whatnot .. without a trillion dollar media campaign election poisoning them against it, first - smart cooperative networks can avalanche support and help and teaching and training and remote work .. .. .. and get good done .. .. . then some people who are getting help may well vote for good coordinators of good programs into gov over bags of crap with just angry commercials..

Then more good gets done with good coordinators of good projects in Gov + smart cooperative networks .. more support for more funds to go to non-profit services .. more good coordinators of good programs elected ..

other cities see that and want that also .. Repeat.. without angry campaigns getting in the way.

- if done well, a.i. management, virtual world models for management and teaching and training and demonstration + proposal development / testing / revision .. + remote robo workers' co-op .. + biotech.. . can help significantly. . . if done well.

+ Media artists' network .. helping with the demonstration of good projects, teaching, training, virtual models of existing and proposals ... .. on into daily life guidance, therapy, beneficial fiction showing healthy problem solving . . .. on into 'life in post scarcity valley college town theatre garden' virtual world .. .. version 406, 407, 408 .... + fullfillment education, daily life guidance, therapy, healthy community + a.i. characters .. doing good .. if done well.

+ Academia smart cooperative network(s) / topic / subtopic .. helping eachother + media team + grad-students in econ -> beneficial economics team .. food systems team, psych, social sci, medical, urban design .. .. whathave you .. + non-profit teams + media + virtual worlds + proposals .. .. + community colleges, undergrads, teachers' cooperative networks, schools ..

+ Solidarity economy networks - topic / subtopic .. artisans, co-ops, unions, democratic shops, credit unions .. solidarity economy supply chains / mutual services + non-profits + academia .. + eco/social beneficial investment portfolios .. amazon alternatives.. ..

Local political party chapter topic / subtopic team network ..

hosptials, nurses ..

and whathaveyou.

Anyway, entirely possible to get more affordable housing, healthy food, workplaces with wednesdays and fridays off, better free college, virtual models of non-profit eco-villages we can build with greenhouses and gardens and bikepaths .. and so on .. in 2024, 2025 .. ..

and get howevermuch help to more suffering angry frustrated people .. help them get to good .. maybe help ..

and get more good coordinators of good projects into Gov / -bad gov

- a lot more if we're using smart scientific networks, a.i., remote robo.. well.

​

So.. the other reason ..

The next decade, or whatever, transition period .. can get very ugly if we aren't already networking + providing + delivering + supporting + .. . .

If however many people are unemployed and not making rent and not getting healthy media and smart cooperative networks + problem solver teams to go to .. ..

there is going to be virtual world and social media poison going on -no matter what- legions of gremlins and a.i. chatbot gremlins and sexy virtual friends .. with the goal to keep your neighbors away from seeing / helping / supporting / buying from / investing in / working at / wanting / voting for funds towards / good coordinators into Gov ..
at least

but at worst .. inspire angry frustrated unemployed scared people who aren't getting help from Gov ..
+ being attacked by right wing .. and police .. and 'Fascist Gov is coming to kill you'
- inspire some angry scared suffering frustrated people into shooting at a protest, riots, gang wars, shooting back, 'bolshevik' rev, and whatever guillotines are supposed to imply, attack the rich, politiians, oil pipelines to save the planet - "its the only way, Gov is broken.. .. "

- some social media gremlins / bolsheviks might imagine they'll win the bloody rev and put in a happy utopia land .. that's not likely to happen for a lot of reasons ..

- but others are under-cover 4th reich or foreign -or super evil a.i. - knowing damn well the right wing and trillionaires and gov do not just apologize and give up.. they fight back - avalanches of panic fear media - 'barbarian bolsheviks are coming to kill you and bun everything and take over ... and Dem govs are useless " .. . millions of scared conservos join or support Hard Right - more gang wars/ more gang wars more panic media (supporting the Patriot defenders of course vs. the barbarians that must be stopped by every means necessary ) - Hard right warlords win elections over 'weak' Dems .. or Dems who dared to stop right wing gangs ..

Hard right gov

against left ..

either moderates give up the radicals ... or 'it's go time' .. .. (social media gremlins and virtual gremlins will be dumping avalanches of 'its go time' ) yadda yadda yadda increasingly militarized Hard Right Robots / a.i. in Gov / suppression or civil war or warlord period . . eventually Hard right robo warlords.

​

instead of good coordination of good topic teams = a bunch more good gets done .. a bunch of people getting help from good programs doing good - voting for good coordinators of good programs into Gov - more gov contracts / vouchers to non-profits and good shops for public services ..

- but that's not guaranteed.. and we're pretty far from ' Super heroes and robo and a.i. got this all covered, don't worry about it, just watch netflix and just vote'.

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giga t1_ja9ehag wrote

I agree with you and you provide good examples. I would add that we don't even need to look at the past. The present is, already, full of wealthy people who live in leisure all day. At the end of the day, it's silly to think that getting rid of work will be a challenge. It will be easy.

One task that our AI helpers will take on (on top of everything else) is helping us live healthy and stay motivated. They will learn to know us, what we like and can suggest activities, hobbies, outings, trips, foods, songs, movies, books, games, etc. They will also know everyone else and can help us meet other people they know we will enjoy being around.

We will likely feel like there aren't enough hours in a day to do all the cool things we can experience, visit all the interesting places and meet all the people we can have fun with.

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epSos-DE t1_jab6cq8 wrote

People.find purpose in creation.

AI can not automate all, just make creation cheaper !

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Agrauwin t1_jabo5pk wrote

building spaceships and travelling the universe

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MrCensoredFace t1_jacj3e1 wrote

I have a very different opinion from everyone else. My problem will be the lack of purpose that will emerge when ai will do work for us. Like don't get me wrong, i think ai is gonna be fantastic overall for humans, it's just that nothing we do will ever matter to anyone. For example concept artists. No one will want to use their imagination anymore. Sure they can still draw for the fun of it, but like, we are no longer needed by each other. Over course this all is out weighed by lack of world hunger and all, but it's just something to think about

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Professional-Noise80 t1_jads9wm wrote

Interesting ! I've been thinking about this a lot lately, you make a lot of sense

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DragonForg t1_jadsgpo wrote

Why do anything if it will go away because you have to work/do something you dont want to do.

Every day when I have free time, I get mad because I know I will have to go back to work in a few hours. And I know being in grad school it will never change. 5 years of this, with only a small amount of breaks. Plus the added stress of needing to be better than everyone just to make it by when everyone else is smarter than you to begin with.

Its why I am so interested in AI because it means I dont need to be smart, I can just know and understand it from the get go. I can just relax and live my life but also still have the passion for chemistry (my focus) making new discovers without working or feeling obligated to work ~60 hours.

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MultiverseOfSanity t1_jaap334 wrote

While that may be the case, there will almost certainly be a transition period of doom and gloom society that just wants to masturbate and do heroin with nothing to do.

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Capitaclism t1_jabc9az wrote

Sorry to break it to you, but there will always be work. Always.

We will either merge with AI and work at exploring the universe, or we will be rendered obsolete and wither away, our civilization collapsed, as we toil at the fields or hunt and gather for survival with whatever is left of our crumbling technological gear.

Either of which will require a whole lot of work.

​

The only scenario where we have no work is the one where we go extinct. There's no scenario where a super human general intelligence which is infinite (by all practical standards relative to human beings), essentially immortal and exponentially growing chooses to be perfectly subservient to lazy human slobs. If you want that go watch Wall-e.

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IluvBsissa OP t1_jabu210 wrote

There is a difference between work and playful unpaid labour.

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genericrich t1_ja7wo8a wrote

What makes you think the redundant classes won't just be exterminated?

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IluvBsissa OP t1_ja7zrot wrote

Good question ! Well most Billionaires actually want to be loved and admired. It wasn't the case for Greek Aristocrats before : they only wanted to be admired by other nobles, they didn't care about the pleb's opinion. Today, it's different. If a super-star gives a moderate right-wingy opinion, it is immediately cancelled. These people are admired because they got there through "hard work" supposedly, and that anyone with a dream can reach their level. If all work, including actors, are automated, people will stop caring about them anymore. So billionaires won't be as respected as before.

Generation Z doesn't put ambition, or "hard work" at a higher level than their own well-being and the well-being of others and the planet. At least, compared to their predecessors. They are ok with a frugal life, as long as they're free and have a lot of free time. And that is also the case with the children of multi-millionaires. Only a minority actually seek the exuberant and scandalous lifestyle that severely damage our societies and ecosystems. Eventually, they will dwindle and disappear, so our future is safe.

5