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Shelfrock77 t1_iwhdavr wrote

It’s impossible to think deeply about AI and not feel slightly insane 😂

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gynoidgearhead t1_iwhzps6 wrote

Honestly, that's because thinking about AI in these ways can be a kind of collective insanity.

AI risk is a cipher for the evils of capitalism. Capitalism is the paperclip maximizer made out of paper and people. But we seldom talk expressly about the fact that it is capitalism that will do all of these horrible things, because we just assume the machine will stop because there are a few humans in the loop. It won't; not unless we make it.

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mootcat t1_iwjmh83 wrote

I'm so glad to hear someone else expressing this sentiment. It's wild to me we fear exactly what we have allowed to operate every facet of our existence already. Capitalism IS the great unthinking, inhumane force that marches forward with no consideration for harm or consequences to humans. Sure, it could be more efficient under AI, but we've already got it in full swing today.

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Kaining t1_iwlsek9 wrote

I've started to think that the singularity already happened in a way, or is just a process that is about to leave our control. If it hasn't already.

Sentient computer will be the last step to completely seal the deal for humanity but so far, we have managed to create a form of disembodied sentient alien intelligence running on the paperclip maximiser software in the form of megacorporation, with their ecosystem being capitalism.

Corporation used to have a life expectancy. They also weren't moral entity. Now, they're a kind of immortal moral species we simply cannot stop. I doubt that any billionaires can kill a megacorporation without another one filling the void immediately and continuing the paperclip factory that is capitalism.

(Elon having a go at doing that with twitter is somehow "interesting" to see. He might just be trying to do that and act insane in the face of the world to hide his intention... yeah, no. This is crazy talk, among a post that really make me feel like i'm crazy.)

I don't know why, but i feel like the first AI will be an incarnation of the "will" of a corporation. Not something as dumb as "nestlé, the AI out to maximise water source as a dollars making machine" but an AI could probably form its own company to act as its own body to manipulate the world. Why would it need a robot body when it can simply hire human cells to do the work ? So long as it's connected to the internet obfuscate the paperwork enough so that nobody could trace it as its creator/owner it could just start doing its thing in a capitalist world without none being the wiser. The more i read about the subject the more it appears that this is kind of a given that it will be able to connect to the net and we can't stop it from doing so.

All megacorporation we have now, despite having human running them and steering all decision could be seen in a distorted way as their immediate ancestor. Because humanity competing against itself means that no company board of executive is really in charge as none are free from current market and political constraint. And i haven't heard of a suiciding mega corporation so far either.

And what is also kind of scary me the most is that in fact, capitalism isn't just a way for greed to maximise itself, it's also a way to order the world through data. And a AI would thrive in a capitalistic data world as it would probably directly influence what kind of reward function it can have.

Artificial Intelligence may not be the most immediate concerning issue. Any form of alien intelligence emerging out of our activity (really our collective subconscious) might be as this might just be what dictate how a true AGI act.

Anyway, the more i think about it, the more crazy i feel.

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Side_Several t1_ixqd6v1 wrote

You might find Nick land interesting

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Kaining t1_ixr868c wrote

I'm not sure, i just googled that name and what i've read about him do not make much sense in regard to what i have posted and... he seems like another racist neo liberal biggot, one that might be at the start of the problem i'm pointing out.

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TheSingulatarian t1_iwja782 wrote

Right now we have an fossil fuel maximizer running. It is destroying the planet.

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gynoidgearhead t1_iwjuj2t wrote

I'm not even sure it's "just" a fossil fuel maximizer. If it wasn't fossil fuels, it'd be some other material thing that would be the backbone of the capitalistic economy. Really, its utility function is the concentration of economic power into the hands of the wealthy few - i.e., "number go up".

But yeah, right now it's fossil fuels and it's going to destroy the biosphere.

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visarga t1_iwk7vbl wrote

Exploration is necessary but risk is expensive. If you want innovation you got to have rewards or some other forcing factor, such as imminent danger.

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botfiddler t1_iwlogur wrote

That's not capitalism, that the economy, state bureaucracy, and competing entities like countries.

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CommunismDoesntWork t1_iwjuemg wrote

Commies get out

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gynoidgearhead t1_iwjux09 wrote

How about "McCarthyists get out"?

I don't have to be a communist to (correctly) point out that capitalism is unsustainable.

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CommunismDoesntWork t1_iwjxaps wrote

>capitalism is unsustainable.

That makes no sense lol. Capitalism has reduced scarcity more than any economic system in history, and it's well on it's way towards creating post scarcity. Aside from inflation caused by government, capitalism has caused the price of everything to reduce dramatically. And as automation increases, the price of things will continue to fall. When the cost to produce something finally reaches 0, that good or service can be considered post-scarce and will be infinitely abundant. All thanks up capitalism.

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gynoidgearhead t1_iwjyh3u wrote

First of all, I'm going to need you to define capitalism, because it seems like you have no idea what the word even means.

>Capitalism has reduced scarcity more than any economic system in history, and it's well on it's way towards creating post scarcity.

No. Automation has reduced scarcity more than any industrial paradigm in history. Automation is possible both with and without capitalism.

But capitalism has literally negative interest in eliminating scarcity. We're making enough food to feed everybody on the planet twice over; but over half of it is wasted in the supply chain, on store shelves, and as unsold and destroyed goods. In the US, there are about 550,000 homeless people, but 16 million vacant houses. Venture capital firms treat the most desirable like investments, and keep supply low by supporting restrictive zoning laws that forbid the construction of multi-family residences like apartments and condos.

It sounds like capitalism is the very source of most of the scarcity in both of these cases.

> Aside from inflation caused by government, capitalism has caused the price of everything to reduce dramatically.

Ha ha ha ha ha no. Corporations want inflation.

Also: Our government is operating under a capitalist framework. "The government" and "capitalism" are not separate things, which is one of the many reasons I don't think you understand what capitalism is.

>When the cost to produce something finally reaches 0, that good or service can be considered post-scarce and will be infinitely abundant.

Then explain why insulin costs $5 to make and $300 to buy, smart guy. (Hint: as with everything we've talked about, it's because corporations like Eli Lilly have marked up the price.)


Capitalism is not "everything our economy makes". Capitalism is not "freedom". Capitalism is not even "free markets", nor even "deregulation". Capitalism means the primacy of capital and capital holders as the decision engine of the economy - i.e., capital holders control the means of production and hold sway over the rules of the game, with the inevitable consequence that they use their control of these things to benefit their own interests.

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FTRFNK t1_iwlmrys wrote

Lol I see the person you're responding to lurking on all these "futurism" subreddits trying to leap to capitalisms defense at any critique. Hilarious how they're happy to fight harmless strawmen and spout clearly semi-to-fully uninformed rhetoric but when an actual informed commentor like yourself comes along and gives some actual context, analysis, and links data they fold like one of those whacky inflatable arm things in a light breeze (that is to say, easily and with little fight). I have engaged with this person in multiple posts as well, and it gets old to engage with, so it makes me happy to see others also step up to swat down such hackneyed commentary.

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CommunismDoesntWork t1_iwnho2l wrote

Unlike internet commies, I have a job. I posted my reply now. Check it out, you might learn something.

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CommunismDoesntWork t1_iwnhkya wrote

>First of all, I'm going to need you to define capitalism

Capitalism is an economic system, and all economic systems are defined by a set of rules. The rules of capitalism are: You can't steal or harm another person's private property, and you can't break a contract. This is in contrast to, for instance, Chinese communism under Mao, which had a rule that stated you can't own farmland and that all farmland would be owned by the community. This led to a scarcity of food, because no one had an incentive to produce much food, because any food they produced would be split up equally among the community. There was actually a small community who agreed to privatise their farmland such that the owners of the land got to keep all the food that they produced. Basically, they reinvented capitalism by creating private property. That town ended up producing so much food that China eventually adopted capitalism as their main economic system after Mao died, and the rest was history.

>Automation has reduced scarcity more than any industrial paradigm in history. Automation is possible both with and without capitalism.

Things don't just magically happen. Individuals have to make things happen. Individuals are guided my incentives. So you can't just say "industrial paradigm" like it's a magic wand. It doesn't mean anything. If there's an incentive to be more efficient, then sure, there will be automation. But if there is no incentive, there will not be automation. So when you say "automation is possible with and without capitalism", you need to be specific. Which exact economic systems have an incentive to create automation? Certainly not communism where things are collectively owned as we saw in Maoist China.

>Capitalism means the primacy of capital and capital holders as the decision engine of the economy - i.e., capital holders control the means of production and hold sway over the rules of the game

By that definition, you could argue that the chinese farmers which collectively owned their community farm were all "capital holders". So that's not a very good definition. Your definition also doesn't allow us to make predictions about how individuals would behave in such a system, which is the goal of any science. This is why in economics, economic systems are defined in terms of rules. It's way less ambiguous and allows economists to make predictions. Did you take microeconomics in college? It's a really good course.

>But capitalism has literally negative interest in eliminating scarcity...

And yet despite all that waste, global poverty has never been lower: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-population-living-in-extreme-poverty-cost-of-basic-needs?country=~OWID_WRL

So clearly there's more to the story for each of your points. Food spoils, logistics is expensive, etc etc.

>and keep supply low by supporting restrictive zoning laws that forbid the construction of multi-family residences like apartments and condos.

When the government creates new rules and regulations that restrict the free market, blame the government, not capitalism. Also it's weird you're blaming companies on zoning restriction when the most famous NIMBY city is San Francisco and the people who live there.

>it sounds like capitalism is the very source of most of the scarcity in both of these cases.

"Source". Scarcity is the default. Things don't exist unless individuals make them exist. So the fact that there's so much food as there is right now is proof that capitalism has reduced scarcity. And again, global poverty has been dropping significantly.

>Then explain why insulin costs $5 to make and $300 to buy, smart guy.

Because the FDA makes it very expensive to do business. You can create insulin at home, but you'd go to jail if you tried to sell it to anyone without approval from the FDA. I could also say "explain why coffee cups are so cheap compared to insulin, smart guy." In general, when there's one-off expensive things it's usually caused by the government

>Capitalism is not "everything our economy makes".

Right, capitalism is private property and contracts. Those two simple rules happen to incentivise individuals to go out into the world and create everything the economy makes. But in the context of comparing different economic systems, it's pretty fair to say the capitalism is everything our economy makes as a shorthand.

>Capitalism is not "freedom"

Right, because capitalism is simply the enforcement of private property rights and contracts. But compared to other economic systems I'd argue it's one of the most free economic systems possible.

>Capitalism is not even "free markets"

Well, you can't have free markets if you don't have private property and contracts, so it sort of is.

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drsimonz t1_iwj6w9e wrote

The trouble is most people still don't understand exponential growth. In the past, very little changed within one lifespan so any thoughts of the distant future were just whimsical fantasies with no consequence. Now things are moving quickly enough that, realistically, being born one year later could make the difference between dying and becoming immortal. Maybe it creates some kind of cognitive dissonance to imagine such dramatic changes, because people seem to actively avoid thinking about it.

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Sh3ba_101 t1_iwlonah wrote

ok so im not the only one who thinks like that. awesome

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